Chronograph - Should Have Done This Sooner

[Tony C]

I purchased a Shooting Chrony Alpha Master a couple of weeks ago, and used it for the first time today. I reload for fun and for USPSA, and wish I would have had this data sooner. I am way over my power factor in minor, and quite a bit under in major.

This adds a whole new dimension to my reloading fun! If you haven't used one of these yet, consider it strongly.

Tony C.

[Rbrt3474]

Anyone have an opinion on differences in chronos? I bought a Caldwell ballistic precision chrono for $90 at cabelas. Works pretty well in cloudy weather, lots of errors when it's sunny. I hope it's giving accurate numbers, basing my uspsa PF off of it.

[Sevens]

I have only used one chrono and I am passionate in how I feel about it.

I loathe it. It is a Chrony Beta Master and it does a fantastic job at measuring the speed of bullets, which is certainly top of the list of requirements. My problem with it is two-fold:

--it limits all calculations to an absolute max of a TEN shot string, which is, IMO, ludicrous

--it is a very powerful and capable piece of computing device but demands that your entire manipulation of it comes via a couple of push buttons. Asinine, horribly frustrating, tedious and thoroughly unenjoyable to use

It does a fine job at measuring the speed of bullet, but I will likely replace it.

[jmr40]

I hand loaded for a long time without one. I now think they should be required equipment. Lots of guys shooting loads a lot hotter than they think just because they are about halfway between minimum and max in a loading book. Lots of others shooting a 30-06 at 300 Savage speeds and don't realize it.

I have no need for a fancy unit. If it records the speed that is all I want.

[Road_Clam]

As you gain chrono data you will start to notice velocity patterns as to what your barrel like with a given weight bullet. Example my R700 Varmint has a solid accuracy node around 2530 fps with a 168gr bullet. Doesn't matter weather it's a SMK, Nosler CC whatever they all have an accurate and consistent behavior. You also get a feel for exiting an accuracy node as you can pattern your groups opening up. So many shooters seem to feel the need to be launching bullets at max , or "hot" loads but me personally have yet to see any accuracy at max suggested loads. Velocities are also necessary for doping moving out to greater distances. When I have my precise velocities of a given load, I enter those values into my iphone Strelok ballistics app , and from my 200 meter zero out to 600 yds the Strelok suggested theoretical MOA dope is VERY accurate , usually within about +/- 1 or 2 MOA of elevation.

[Nick_C_S]

I loathe it. It is a Chrony Beta Master and it does a fantastic job at measuring the speed of bullets, which is certainly top of the list of requirements. My problem with it is two-fold:

--it limits all calculations to an absolute max of a TEN shot string, which is, IMO, ludicrous

--it is a very powerful and capable piece of computing device but demands that your entire manipulation of it comes via a couple of push buttons. Asinine, horribly frustrating, tedious and thoroughly unenjoyable to use

I have the same unit Sevens.

I like mine a lot. But then, I'm an extraordinarily patient person. I write down every shot recorded. I have every range field work sheet of every chronograph session I've ever done. If I want to check averages or SD's of strings more than 10, I have the data. I often do this. There's a SD calculator on line that I use a lot.

Tony C: Chronographs are essential if you're loading to make action shooting sports' power factors. Trust me, I've spent a lot of time chronographing rounds to make IDPA and ICORE PF.

Chronographs are cool. And they give you lots of useful information. The only word of caution is that chronographing has a way of raising more questions than they answer. Avoid "analysis paralysis."

[Sevens]

Basically -- I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just wrote. And it re-affirms my opinion!

I call it "the fun sucker." It is amazing to me how such a tidy little package can just suck so much time, fun and life out of my shooting day, and that is when it's doing it's best work. It is more me than the unit, I am sure.

I like what I saw in the other recent thread about the Competition Electronics unit with the blue-tooth add-on to send things to my smartphone. If I actually chase after that, someone on these pages will get a -FINE- deal on this unit we both have.

Can't close this out without reiterating what the shipping documents from Natchez called it... "the Chrony Master Beta." Heh heh heh, in my best Beavis voice. "YEAH!"

[Nick_C_S]

Chrony Master Beta

Yes, I had myself the same moment of juvenile humor.

And yes, after the newness wears off, chronographing can suck all the fun out of a range trip. You know you're chronographing too much when you go to the range without it, and the RSO asks you where your chronograph is. Been there. Done that. A few times over.

Speak of which, I'm going to have to get out - probably this week - and chronograph some X-treme 158 (plated of course) SWC's for ICORE PF. And while I'm at it, I'll also test some of the same bullets for 357 Mag w/ HS-6 under them - just for general knowledge; and because I'll have the chrono already set up.

[Nick_C_S]

Here's my "chrono kit." What I cart to the range. It's kind of half set up in the box. I can have it fully configured in about 90 seconds or so - on a tripod. Note: the worksheet on a clipboard at the top of the pic.

[Sevens]

If I want to check averages or SD's of strings more than 10, I have the data. I often do this. There's a SD calculator on line that I use a lot.

Oops, I do have to address this part as I feel it is important and it just never ceases to amaze me that nobody gives a hoot about it.

Typically, the simple answer is the correct answer, and it just seems to me that either I am completely off base (entirely possible) or so many others just plain don't get it.

STANDARD DEVIATION is, IMO, the most important thing we can take away from chrono work, aside from the obvious -- which is simply spitting out a velocity with each shot. SD attempts to use complicated mathematics to show us a trend, but it is truly like any experiment -- IT REQUIRES DATA and like any other experiment, any conclusion is a far more firm conclusion when you feed it heaps of data.

If I take a 10-shot string and my chrono reports a lousy, high SD... I think we can both agree that we haven't found anything magical. It may still shoot well (or well enough) but if it spits out a high SD, there is no hoping that it will improve itself. However, if that 10-shot string spits out a low SD, we MIGHT have a very good load on our hands! At this point, any "scientist" worth his salt would test it further.

Chrony says NO! You only get 10!
From the part of yours that I quoted above, your hand-write each velocity! God love you. And you use an online calculator... so if you want to chase down SD with more than 10 shots, you will then be entering EACH SHOT in to a calculator. You have the patience of a saint, sir.

If my unit told me that I had a nice low SD with 10 shots, my next step would be to give it 20 or 35 shots and see if it stays lows. I'd sooner go home and scrub out garbage cans than hand-write velocities for 35 shots and *GULP* enter EACH of those in to a calculator...

...especially when the unit absolutely has that computing power but it's engineers elected to snip it's manhood clean off at 10 shots. AND those same characters will let me orchestrate a hostile corporate takeover with this thing, but only if I can figure out how to use three 0/1 pushbuttons to make it happen. Getting the Chrony to do something is eerily reminiscent of entering 28-click input cheat codes for an old Nintendo or Sega game. God love that... at least you had a d-pad and an array of buttons. I'm actually surprised the Chrony-brand units don't simply display in Roman Numerals, it would align better with it's control system.

But alas, I'm ranting now.

Bottom line is that I would never be mistaken for a mathematician or an intellectual, but this unit is factory neutered in two directions and if I had a range session with it before purchasing, I wouldn't own one and have all the frothing hate.

[Nick_C_S]

Sevens, I agree with everything you said. And I appreciate your, uhh, "spirited" explanation.

You really do have a great point: There is no reason whatsoever - other than software code - that the "master beta" (insert Bevis laugh here) can't do SD strings as high as 80. (And yes, when striving to make truly exceptional ammo, SD is far and away the most important stat. SD is huge.)

And yes, I really am that patient. Don't know about the saint part though. I shoot about 800 - 1000 rounds/month and I load it all on a single-stage. Patient. Not to mention an astounding tolerance for repetition.

[waveslayer]

Originally Posted by Rbrt3474

Anyone have an opinion on differences in chronos? I bought a Caldwell ballistic precision chrono for $90 at cabelas. Works pretty well in cloudy weather, lots of errors when it's sunny. I hope it's giving accurate numbers, basing my uspsa PF off of it.

yes there is a bid difference. get the magnetospeed you can use it for almost any handgun with a picatinny rail. you can use it in the dark if you want to as well as keep track of a 30 shot shooting series and several series. it will give you the average velocity, SD, etc... easy to use.

[1stmar]

I have a pact that has excellent capabilities and up to recently has been reliable. It is 20 years old and is likely due for replacement. But can calc virtually everything at the touch of a button and no max on string size. It is alo a timer and the screens are not integrated, a feature I also like, though the screens are as much as a chrony or pro Chrono. Pact also has infr red screens which are interesting and may be more reliable but not enough info out there on them. I looked at the new oehler but I'm not spending $600 if I can get virtually everything I need for $100-$150. I use a printer w my pact and it's great. It's a must have going forward. I did have a chrony before and I liked it but like many have said the compute capabilities are lacking which is a shame because it wouldn't take much to change that. I will likely go with the pro chrono and the blue tooth adapter so I can record and print, though I'd really like to the pact working because it has everything you'd want, including trajectory calc. And I already have a portable infrared printer. I've heard a lot of bad things about pacts support and I'm not expecting much for a 20 year old device. Great tools and for the most part very reasonably priced.

[1stmar]

Just went to pacts site..they sell replacement parts and I think they have lowered their prices. I'm probably going w another pact, can't beat their computing capabilities and I like the idea of infrared screens. Needs more research though. I can use my existing printer. They have several models of chrono graphs. Definitely worth a look.

[zeke]

Have been using a F1 master for years. Gonna politely disagree with calculating the sd, as consider the usefulness of the number highly overrated and approaching useless info for determining "best" hand loaded round. No wonder someone coined the phrase "analysis paralysis".

Have better things to do than shoot the number of shots required to get any meaningful sd data, and settle for 5 round strings and av velocity. Can look at 5 numbers and tell if there is too extreme a spread.

Primarily use the chrono for velocity measurements, and safety measure. Accuracy will trump sd every time in level of importance, and simply won't waste my time shooting enough rounds through chrono to get decent sample size for useful sd calculation.

[Road_Clam]

I too used to log all the data : min , max , avg , es , and sd. Now that I've realized i'm just an amateur recreational precision shooter. I only log avg , and ES . the others I can calculate in my head if need be. I load using the exact same method and procedure and sometimes my ES is as little as 9 and sometimes as extreme as 105 ? So was this my fault in my loading method or just a bad velocity read ? I stopped worrying about random large ES's . Again I am working on MY breathing and trigger mechanics at this time.

[MightyMO1911]

I got mine a couple months ago and have learned tons since I started using it. Mine will store 10 strings, 99 shots per string. Though I've never shot that many, yet. Loads I thought were cinsistent aren't necessarily so and I am amazed at how big a difference a subtle change can make. My next project is to work up a consistent, accurate hunting load for my 30-06. Unfortunately, home repairs, graduation preparations and the weather have hindered my progress the last few weeks.

[hdbiker]

I bought mine about 15 years ago and it never worked well except on cloudy overcast days.Bright high sun forget it,error messages,or no reading at all a lot of the times.One day I knicked one of the uprights with my .243 and it died,and I'm GLAD ITS DEAD,nothing but trouble !!!!!!!!!!!,I'm now looking at different ones for one to buy. hdbiker

[waveslayer]

Originally Posted by hdbiker

I bought mine about 15 years ago and it never worked well except on cloudy overcast days.Bright high sun forget it,error messages,or no reading at all a lot of the times.One day I knicked one of the uprights with my .243 and it died,and I'm GLAD ITS DEAD,nothing but trouble !!!!!!!!!!!,I'm now looking at different ones for one to buy. hdbiker

magneto speed will solve that issue, uses magnets so it can be blacker than a coal miners butt crack

[wogpotter]

I don't know why, but my old, really old PACT model 1 never seems to have the problems that many claim. Maybe its design, or the included sunshades but its easy, repeatable & trouble free.

In all the time I've had it my only problem has been with .357 pistol loads where it would read the shock-wave of muzzle blast once in a while. That was cured in minutes with a cardboard "pre-screen" with a hole in it.

For me its an essential tool, without it I'm guessing at MV, spread & so on.

[TMD]

Anyone have an opinion on differences in chronos? I bought a Caldwell ballistic precision chrono for $90 at cabelas. Works pretty well in cloudy weather, lots of errors when it's sunny. I hope it's giving accurate numbers, basing my uspsa PF off of it.

I have the same chrono and had the same problem. I found that the IR sun screens suck up some serous battery power so what I do is tape a paper target over the regular sun screens to make a canopy. Even in the brightest sun light it works without getting an error message now.

[Tony C]

iFirst use and I shot 49 rounds through mine yesterday. I had only one error, first round of the fifth string. Weather was gray and cloudy, @ 60 degrees. Recorded each round on paper but appreciated the ability to get the string data at the end.

Little experience, but so far I am very happy with it.

[Colorado Redneck]

Had one for 8 or 9 years and finally shot it. Got another through Amazon for about $80.00 Works good enough for me. Statistical calculations are not important to me. I am interested in velocity. SD and ES are meaningless in my world. As said above---accuracy of a load is all that really matters to me. Knowing the velocity is necessary for longer range shooting (and don't misinterpret me---400 yards is long range to me) when looking for trajectory numbers.

[Marco Califo]

Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph
I love mine. I have not had a shot not register.

Read reviews here for both and it sounds like the Chrony products should be shot.

The ProChrono display on the unit is big but not bright. I got the CDROM and USB cable and connect my laptop on the bench. They have a Bluetooth device that eliminates the cable.
The software does stats and can dump data into Excel.
Accuracy = low SD, consistent result from shot to shot.
High SD = inconsistancy, degraded accuracy.

[Nick_C_S]

Tony C: Now you have a tool that allows you to build rounds that are specific to the power factor of your action shooting discipline (USPSA minor). I'm here to tell you the fun is just beginning. . .

I shoot revolver in both IDPA (105 PF) and ICORE (120 PF). (I also shoot steel challenge, but it has no PF requirement, so I just use my IDPA loads.)

Thanks to my chronograph, I have IDPA compliant rounds that are just above PF for thee different bullets, using four different powders - yeah, that's 12 different load recipes. And getting there required chronograph work ups for all of them.

For ICORE, I got smarter - just two different bullets with two different powders Four takes less time than twelve

As I have learned, chronographs can be both a blessing and a curse.