Concealed Carry Help

golfnutrlv · November 17, 2008, 01:51 PM

I know this topic has probably been discussed before, but here goes.

Does anyone have any good resources on the Use of Force Doctrine in general, specifically in Washington State?

It seems difficult to find good information on when and how to use force, and in what degree. I feel that I am in danger of giving concealed carry a bad rap if I am involved in a shooting that is not justifiable. In addition of course, to the consequences to me personally.

Also, does anyone have any resources on what steps to take after a shooting, should it ever occur. I know to call the police/ambulance/my lawyer of course, but any other suggestions?

Thanks all for the help.

OnTheFly · November 17, 2008, 02:02 PM

I used http://www.handgunlaw.us/ to find http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.a...A.16&full=true.

Hope that helps.

Fly

Brian Pfleuger · November 17, 2008, 02:11 PM

You might try a search on your states webpage for "physical force penal code." That should come up with a copy of the law in your state. (usually)

OnTheFly · November 17, 2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peetzakilla

You might try a search on your states webpage for "physical force penal code." That should come up with a copy of the law in your state. (usually)

Or you could just click on the second link I provided to go to wa.gov and see what the law says.

Fly

Bauer · November 17, 2008, 02:15 PM

Use of Force.

Keltyke · November 17, 2008, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Does anyone have any good resources on the Use of Force Doctrine in general, specifically in Washington State?

Use of Force Doctrine? Never heard of it. There are general Federal handgun laws and state handgun laws. There are STATE-SPECIFIC concealed laws of when you can shoot. I suggest you check those laws for YOUR state.

pax · November 17, 2008, 07:06 PM

Randell,

Pick up a copy of Dave Workman's Washington Gun Rights and Responsibilities booklet. Costs around $10 and you can get it from SAF at http://www.saf.org/default.asp?p=boo...itle=&bauthor=

Check out www.useofforce.us for the general overview of lethal force doctrine under common law throughout the United States, or see my website at www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx. For similar information of this general nature, see Massad Ayoob's book In the Gravest Extreme, or sign up for an LFI-1 class taught by Ayoob.

Sign up for a $35 "Handgun Safety Seminar" from the Firearms Academy of Seattle, which covers the laws regarding gun ownership and lethal force in Washington and Oregon in some detail, and provides you the opportunity to ask specific questions. FAS is located near Chehalis, WA.

Join the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network and take advantage of the DVDs that come with your membership.

The link to specific Washington law provided above is good; as you're perusing that site remember that the criminal codes regarding Murder/Manslaughter/Justifiable Homicide are not found near the firearms statutes or the statutes related to concealed carry -- be as thorough as you can.

More legal resources are listed on my site at http://www.corneredcat.com/Legal/resources.aspx; many of them are specific to Washington state.

Hope some of the above helps.

pax

golfnutrlv · November 17, 2008, 07:17 PM

Thank you all for the info!

oldandslow · November 17, 2008, 08:36 PM

golfnut, 11/18/08

I'd like to second the recommendation for the Firearms Academy of Seattle. I've taken a number of classes from them over the years and they are excellent. The classes cover everything from the most basic information to advanced techniques. They also have all-women's classes which are usually pretty popular. One of the owners, Marty Hayes, besides being a firearms trainer also has his law degree so he is excellent at both the practical and legal aspects of self defense. Take a look at their website for more info. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow

Shawn Dodson · November 18, 2008, 06:48 AM

Suggest you see:

Communicating Effectively with Police

Five Rules for CONCEALED Carry

I CCW'd for 18 years as a private citizen in WA. I was also an LEO (Bremerton PD) for 7 years.

Cheers!

David Armstrong · November 18, 2008, 11:10 AM

My suggestion is fairly simple, at least as it relates to deadly force. Forget about trying to figure out when you can shoot, decide when you must shoot. For example, "I will shoot somebody to prevent loss of life or great harm to me or someone I care a whole lot about." That is a simple, easy to remember, and for the most part legally defensible action anywhere. For lower levels of force, the reasonableness doctrine is a good one. "Does what I am doing seem reasonable to me, and will others think it is reasonable?" That is a good, bare-bones basic use of force doctrine.
As others have said, you can get a far more detailed and precise look at the issue by taking a course at FAS, or LFI, or a few other places, and some literature will help.
For after the shooting, equally simple. "Officer, I know you have a job to do, but given the seriousness of this situation, I want to talk with my attorney before answering any questions." Then wait for the attorney.
Makes for a simple and easy to remember doctrine: Is it reasonable? Is it necessary? I want my lawyer.

November 17, 2008, 01:51 PM	#1
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Concealed Carry Help I know this topic has probably been discussed before, but here goes. Does anyone have any good resources on the Use of Force Doctrine in general, specifically in Washington State? It seems difficult to find good information on when and how to use force, and in what degree. I feel that I am in danger of giving concealed carry a bad rap if I am involved in a shooting that is not justifiable. In addition of course, to the consequences to me personally. Also, does anyone have any resources on what steps to take after a shooting, should it ever occur. I know to call the police/ambulance/my lawyer of course, but any other suggestions? Thanks all for the help. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

November 17, 2008, 02:02 PM	#2
OnTheFly Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2007 Location: SE Nebraska Posts: 859	I used http://www.handgunlaw.us/ to find http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.a...A.16&full=true. Hope that helps. Fly __________________ I told my wife I was scheduling a mid-life crisis. It was either a Harley or guns. Secretly, I've already decided on guns. :-) Bang... Bang... Bang...

November 17, 2008, 02:11 PM	#3
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	You might try a search on your states webpage for "physical force penal code." That should come up with a copy of the law in your state. (usually) __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

November 17, 2008, 07:06 PM	#7
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Randell, Pick up a copy of Dave Workman's Washington Gun Rights and Responsibilities booklet. Costs around $10 and you can get it from SAF at http://www.saf.org/default.asp?p=boo...itle=&bauthor= Check out www.useofforce.us for the general overview of lethal force doctrine under common law throughout the United States, or see my website at www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx. For similar information of this general nature, see Massad Ayoob's book In the Gravest Extreme, or sign up for an LFI-1 class taught by Ayoob. Sign up for a $35 "Handgun Safety Seminar" from the Firearms Academy of Seattle, which covers the laws regarding gun ownership and lethal force in Washington and Oregon in some detail, and provides you the opportunity to ask specific questions. FAS is located near Chehalis, WA. Join the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network and take advantage of the DVDs that come with your membership. The link to specific Washington law provided above is good; as you're perusing that site remember that the criminal codes regarding Murder/Manslaughter/Justifiable Homicide are not found near the firearms statutes or the statutes related to concealed carry -- be as thorough as you can. More legal resources are listed on my site at http://www.corneredcat.com/Legal/resources.aspx; many of them are specific to Washington state. Hope some of the above helps. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat Last edited by pax; November 17, 2008 at 07:13 PM.

November 17, 2008, 07:17 PM	#8
golfnutrlv Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 1,347	Thank you all for the info! __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ VIGILIA PRETIUM LIBERTATIS "The price of liberty is vigilance" America is at an awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards.

November 17, 2008, 02:15 PM	#5
Bauer Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Washington State Posts: 195	Use of Force.

November 17, 2008, 08:36 PM	#9
oldandslow Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2007 Posts: 641	golfnut, 11/18/08 I'd like to second the recommendation for the Firearms Academy of Seattle. I've taken a number of classes from them over the years and they are excellent. The classes cover everything from the most basic information to advanced techniques. They also have all-women's classes which are usually pretty popular. One of the owners, Marty Hayes, besides being a firearms trainer also has his law degree so he is excellent at both the practical and legal aspects of self defense. Take a look at their website for more info. Good luck. best wishes- oldandslow

November 18, 2008, 06:48 AM	#10
Shawn Dodson Junior member Join Date: December 16, 1998 Location: Titusville, FL, USA Posts: 1,030	Suggest you see: Communicating Effectively with Police Five Rules for CONCEALED Carry I CCW'd for 18 years as a private citizen in WA. I was also an LEO (Bremerton PD) for 7 years. Cheers!

November 18, 2008, 11:10 AM	#11
David Armstrong Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: SW Louisiana Posts: 2,289	My suggestion is fairly simple, at least as it relates to deadly force. Forget about trying to figure out when you can shoot, decide when you must shoot. For example, "I will shoot somebody to prevent loss of life or great harm to me or someone I care a whole lot about." That is a simple, easy to remember, and for the most part legally defensible action anywhere. For lower levels of force, the reasonableness doctrine is a good one. "Does what I am doing seem reasonable to me, and will others think it is reasonable?" That is a good, bare-bones basic use of force doctrine. As others have said, you can get a far more detailed and precise look at the issue by taking a course at FAS, or LFI, or a few other places, and some literature will help. For after the shooting, equally simple. "Officer, I know you have a job to do, but given the seriousness of this situation, I want to talk with my attorney before answering any questions." Then wait for the attorney. Makes for a simple and easy to remember doctrine: Is it reasonable? Is it necessary? I want my lawyer.