My Lyman Gen 6: (very) first impressions.

Pond, James Pond · May 13, 2015, 04:30 PM

It just arrived today...

First of all it is very small, but not so much so that it is hard to handle or operate.

It's a nice design.

A couple of minor issues have arisen, but I can't say that they are problems as yet because the test conditions were not ideal.

Firstly, upon calibration, the scale is supposed to read -771.6gn when the test weight is removed (according to the manual), but mine read -771.4gn. It did this repeatedly.

I then tried to meter some powder with the Lee scale as a control. I set up the Lee, zero'd it and set it to 20gn. I poured some N110 into the hopper then selected 20gn to be dispensed.

It did this very quickly and was spot on according to the Lee when I transferred the powder from one scale to the other. I then set the Lee to 60gn and did the same with the Lyman. I pressed go and tipped the charge into the Lee tray. It came in under 60gn, but not by much. I metered out a further grain and added it and it went over by the same as it had been under.

So this time I tried 60.5gn: a bit over. 60.3 was a bit under. So It looks like my Lyman is throwing about 0.4gn or so under charge at a selected 60gn charge.

As I said, the area was not ideal and I may try the little restrictor cap on the feed tube. Even if it is a bit under, I can trickle the rest. As long as it is consistent, I can work with it.

So, so far I am pretty pleased. It is so much faster than I was: under 10 secs to meter 60gn, and my highest charge weight is about 44gn.

I will say that cleaning is a bit of a PITA. A bit involved if all you want to do is switch powders, but once it makes sense it is probably only a little more fiddly then emptying the PPM.

The instruction booklet is OK, but has virtually no diagrams, just words. On top of all that it refers to parts that have never been visually identified and I am a visual learner!! So that made the emptying/cleaning process more complicated.

All in all, I'm happy to have it and I believe it has a place in my reloading. Once I have it sussed out, it will make batch loading very swift for me.

I will just need to figure out the nuances. These are probably the types of things that Chargemaster owners don't have to worry about, but I don't regret my choice. We'll just have to see if the same is true a month from now!

Rimfire5 · May 14, 2015, 08:09 AM

James,

I can't explain why the scale isn't calibrating exactly but I also can't attest for the calibration of your Lee scale either. I would take it that your calibration weight is supposed to be 50 grams (771.61 grains). The weight or the scale might be off by 0.026% or a combination of both. That is not significant if you're going to be weighing loads from 5 to 50 grains. The variation at 50 grains would be 0.013 grains and that is within the accuracy of your scale (+/- 0.5 grains).

If I were you I would use the 50 gram calibration weight to compare both scales before you try to compare dispensed powder weights. I wouldn't be surprised that the two scales don't agree to a few 1/10ths of a grain somewhere across the spectrum from 0 grains to 100 grains, especially if the calibration weight is 50 grams. No scale is perfectly linear across its entire measurement range.

If both are calibrated with the same weight, then you could make reasonable conclusions about how they measure compared to each other.

The most important thing is that your scale measures consistently. Whether the scale measures slightly high or slightly low probably doesn't matter as long as it measures the same every time.

If you load like I do, I am striving for the most accurate load and accuracy comes with repeatability during loading. I try varying powder loads with every bullet type and also try multiple seating depths and different primers to find the most accurate combination for my rifles. I really don't care whether the best result matches the loading manual or any other measuring device as long as my results provide consistently accurate results. Finding that a scale measures 0.2 or 0.3 grains differently than some other scale doesn't matter if you are going to adjust loads in increments of 0.2 grains when trying to find the best load for your rifle. You'll just pick the load data that gives the best results when using that scale.

Remember your are measuring in increments that are 70 thousandths of a pound (1/10 of a grain with 7000 grains in a pound) and the scale is measuring 1/- half that much to decide that it should stop metering. It doesn't take much to cause variations at those weights.

Another few observations about electronic scales that you probably have already discovered in your research:

Variations in dispensed weights can occur with an electronic scale if the scale isn't level. I have one level right mounted next to my Chargemaster 1500 to ensure that the bench is level and a small one on the side next to the pan to make sure that the scale hasn't been jostled or moved out of position before I calibrate it before every session. Levels are untouched during every loading session so I can be sure nothing has moved, even though I regularly key in different loading weights as I prepare sets of loads for testing generally in 8 or more different loads of 12 or 15 rounds each in a loading session.

Variations in dispensed weights can also occur if the scale is located in a place where there is a breeze or it is subject to temperature variations.
If the scale is jostled during dispensing a load, it may stop the cycle early thinking that the short increase in weight on the sensor meant the load weight was reached.

Also, powder metering is subject to humidity and the size of the pellets of powders. Slower burning powders generally use larger pellets that tend to clump when metering, especially when the humidity is high. Your dispenser attempts to meter the last few pellets in very small increments. If there is any clumping, the final result may be slightly heavy (0.1 grain) if that happens.

The reason I like the Vihta Vuori powders so much is that their pellets are about half the size of most of the slower powders so they meter much more accurately, at least for my scale. That accuracy translates into load accuracy for me. As I remember, you use VV because it is readily available - a happy circumstance. VV is usually hard to find here in Northern VA and it is more expensive than most powders.

Pond, James Pond · May 15, 2015, 01:06 PM

I understand the cross calibration idea, only the Lee maxes out at 100gn, so 750 of them is more than it can handle!!

I have used it (the Lyman) some more in a more suitable location. I started metering out my .223 charge weights for an OCW test later in the month.

With the Lee set at the same weight, the Lee would sometimes show the exact weight selected on the Lyman's screen. Sometimes a bit under but more annoyingly, sometimes over too. I hate trying to extract half a dozen granules to get the scales level.

Adding is OK, but removing.... loathsome. Anyway, regardless of which it was on the Lee, the Lyman's screen would read the exact weight I wanted.

So is the Lyman spot on and the Lee temperamental, or is my Lee on the money, but the Lyman variable?! Hard to say, but my guess is the later simply because there is so little to go wrong on the Lee.

The next question is does it really matter? Are my charge weights close enough that it makes no difference. I usually meter and only throw the charge in when the beam is exactly on the level line of the frame, so I have been keeping things pretty tight there.

One way to find out might be to load ten cases with my best load (.308 Amax load for me) and see how it patterns with each loaded via the Lyman, without any trickling or Lee oversight. If it groups as well as normal and the velocities are close, then I guess I can ignore the minor fluctuations.

I still hate the cleaning process too, but I do love the speed and ease of just pushing a few buttons. It really was quicker than normal even with the few hiccups described above.

The journey of discovery continues!!

Jim Watson · May 15, 2015, 01:23 PM

I would (DO!) take the dispenser - digital scale reading as gospel.
Life is not long enough to be checking one scale against another.

603Country · May 15, 2015, 04:48 PM

I have an older model Lyman. No complaints to make about it. Depending on the type powder, it will often throw 0.1 or sometimes 0.1 gr more powder than I programmed it for. I just program for 0.1 less and trickle if needed.

I check the thrown weight against my PACT electronic scale every now and then, and I have a multitude of check weights. I'm still shooting good groups, so I guess all is well.

May 13, 2015, 04:30 PM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	My Lyman Gen 6: (very) first impressions. It just arrived today... First of all it is very small, but not so much so that it is hard to handle or operate. It's a nice design. A couple of minor issues have arisen, but I can't say that they are problems as yet because the test conditions were not ideal. Firstly, upon calibration, the scale is supposed to read -771.6gn when the test weight is removed (according to the manual), but mine read -771.4gn. It did this repeatedly. I then tried to meter some powder with the Lee scale as a control. I set up the Lee, zero'd it and set it to 20gn. I poured some N110 into the hopper then selected 20gn to be dispensed. It did this very quickly and was spot on according to the Lee when I transferred the powder from one scale to the other. I then set the Lee to 60gn and did the same with the Lyman. I pressed go and tipped the charge into the Lee tray. It came in under 60gn, but not by much. I metered out a further grain and added it and it went over by the same as it had been under. So this time I tried 60.5gn: a bit over. 60.3 was a bit under. So It looks like my Lyman is throwing about 0.4gn or so under charge at a selected 60gn charge. As I said, the area was not ideal and I may try the little restrictor cap on the feed tube. Even if it is a bit under, I can trickle the rest. As long as it is consistent, I can work with it. So, so far I am pretty pleased. It is so much faster than I was: under 10 secs to meter 60gn, and my highest charge weight is about 44gn. I will say that cleaning is a bit of a PITA. A bit involved if all you want to do is switch powders, but once it makes sense it is probably only a little more fiddly then emptying the PPM. The instruction booklet is OK, but has virtually no diagrams, just words. On top of all that it refers to parts that have never been visually identified and I am a visual learner!! So that made the emptying/cleaning process more complicated. All in all, I'm happy to have it and I believe it has a place in my reloading. Once I have it sussed out, it will make batch loading very swift for me. I will just need to figure out the nuances. These are probably the types of things that Chargemaster owners don't have to worry about, but I don't regret my choice. We'll just have to see if the same is true a month from now! __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly. Last edited by Pond, James Pond; May 14, 2015 at 12:06 PM.

May 15, 2015, 01:06 PM	#3
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	I understand the cross calibration idea, only the Lee maxes out at 100gn, so 750 of them is more than it can handle!! I have used it (the Lyman) some more in a more suitable location. I started metering out my .223 charge weights for an OCW test later in the month. With the Lee set at the same weight, the Lee would sometimes show the exact weight selected on the Lyman's screen. Sometimes a bit under but more annoyingly, sometimes over too. I hate trying to extract half a dozen granules to get the scales level. Adding is OK, but removing.... loathsome. Anyway, regardless of which it was on the Lee, the Lyman's screen would read the exact weight I wanted. So is the Lyman spot on and the Lee temperamental, or is my Lee on the money, but the Lyman variable?! Hard to say, but my guess is the later simply because there is so little to go wrong on the Lee. The next question is does it really matter? Are my charge weights close enough that it makes no difference. I usually meter and only throw the charge in when the beam is exactly on the level line of the frame, so I have been keeping things pretty tight there. One way to find out might be to load ten cases with my best load (.308 Amax load for me) and see how it patterns with each loaded via the Lyman, without any trickling or Lee oversight. If it groups as well as normal and the velocities are close, then I guess I can ignore the minor fluctuations. I still hate the cleaning process too, but I do love the speed and ease of just pushing a few buttons. It really was quicker than normal even with the few hiccups described above. The journey of discovery continues!! __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

May 14, 2015, 08:09 AM	#2
Rimfire5 Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2009 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 922	James, I can't explain why the scale isn't calibrating exactly but I also can't attest for the calibration of your Lee scale either. I would take it that your calibration weight is supposed to be 50 grams (771.61 grains). The weight or the scale might be off by 0.026% or a combination of both. That is not significant if you're going to be weighing loads from 5 to 50 grains. The variation at 50 grains would be 0.013 grains and that is within the accuracy of your scale (+/- 0.5 grains). If I were you I would use the 50 gram calibration weight to compare both scales before you try to compare dispensed powder weights. I wouldn't be surprised that the two scales don't agree to a few 1/10ths of a grain somewhere across the spectrum from 0 grains to 100 grains, especially if the calibration weight is 50 grams. No scale is perfectly linear across its entire measurement range. If both are calibrated with the same weight, then you could make reasonable conclusions about how they measure compared to each other. The most important thing is that your scale measures consistently. Whether the scale measures slightly high or slightly low probably doesn't matter as long as it measures the same every time. If you load like I do, I am striving for the most accurate load and accuracy comes with repeatability during loading. I try varying powder loads with every bullet type and also try multiple seating depths and different primers to find the most accurate combination for my rifles. I really don't care whether the best result matches the loading manual or any other measuring device as long as my results provide consistently accurate results. Finding that a scale measures 0.2 or 0.3 grains differently than some other scale doesn't matter if you are going to adjust loads in increments of 0.2 grains when trying to find the best load for your rifle. You'll just pick the load data that gives the best results when using that scale. Remember your are measuring in increments that are 70 thousandths of a pound (1/10 of a grain with 7000 grains in a pound) and the scale is measuring 1/- half that much to decide that it should stop metering. It doesn't take much to cause variations at those weights. Another few observations about electronic scales that you probably have already discovered in your research: Variations in dispensed weights can occur with an electronic scale if the scale isn't level. I have one level right mounted next to my Chargemaster 1500 to ensure that the bench is level and a small one on the side next to the pan to make sure that the scale hasn't been jostled or moved out of position before I calibrate it before every session. Levels are untouched during every loading session so I can be sure nothing has moved, even though I regularly key in different loading weights as I prepare sets of loads for testing generally in 8 or more different loads of 12 or 15 rounds each in a loading session. Variations in dispensed weights can also occur if the scale is located in a place where there is a breeze or it is subject to temperature variations. If the scale is jostled during dispensing a load, it may stop the cycle early thinking that the short increase in weight on the sensor meant the load weight was reached. Also, powder metering is subject to humidity and the size of the pellets of powders. Slower burning powders generally use larger pellets that tend to clump when metering, especially when the humidity is high. Your dispenser attempts to meter the last few pellets in very small increments. If there is any clumping, the final result may be slightly heavy (0.1 grain) if that happens. The reason I like the Vihta Vuori powders so much is that their pellets are about half the size of most of the slower powders so they meter much more accurately, at least for my scale. That accuracy translates into load accuracy for me. As I remember, you use VV because it is readily available - a happy circumstance. VV is usually hard to find here in Northern VA and it is more expensive than most powders.

May 15, 2015, 01:23 PM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,537	I would (DO!) take the dispenser - digital scale reading as gospel. Life is not long enough to be checking one scale against another.

May 15, 2015, 04:48 PM	#5
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	I have an older model Lyman. No complaints to make about it. Depending on the type powder, it will often throw 0.1 or sometimes 0.1 gr more powder than I programmed it for. I just program for 0.1 less and trickle if needed. I check the thrown weight against my PACT electronic scale every now and then, and I have a multitude of check weights. I'm still shooting good groups, so I guess all is well.