Magazine Spring Life?

[Bill DeShivs]

Before Wolff started hawking their wares, no one was concerned about springs.
Quality springs are made today exactly as they were in 1850-albeit with slightly better quality control.
I deal with, and make a lot of, leaf springs. They are just fine to leave tensioned. Old leaf springs may break from useage, but I have never run across a gun or switchblade leaf spring that "got weak." I have seen many thousands of them. They don't "take a set."
Most of what is posted here is heresay. What I am telling you is from personal experience working with springs.
If a spring is going to "get weak" it will do it within the first couple of compressions- not thousands later.
Out of the thousands of springs I have made, not one has gotten weaker, and 4 have broken-all 4 from the same piece of steel.

Note: all my statements are concerning high carbon steel springs. Those made with work-hardened stainless and other materials are NOT properly made springs.

[T. O'Heir]

"...they work harden and break..." They are flat springs. They work harden at the bends only. Springs do not lose temper from being used or compressed.
"...Before Wolff started hawking their wares..." Wolff primarily sells trigger, hammer and return springs. Most of which are needed because of frivolous U.S. law suits have caused the manufacturers to sell firearms with crappy triggers. Not mag springs. Before Wolff you had to find or make a lighter spring to do a proper trigger job.
Before there was an internet, nobody was concerned about springs, much.
"..."automatically" replacing springs at set intervals..." Suspect that has more to do with fairy tales told at IPSC/IDPA, et al matches than anything else.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Before Wolff started hawking their wares, no one was concerned about springs.
Quality springs are made today exactly as they were in 1850-albeit with slightly better quality control.

And you're the same guy who says their only purpose is to sell more springs. And when I mentioned they suggested downloading the hi-cap mag a round or two to prolong spring life, you changed the subject.

Shooters weren't concerned about springs, but they let their gunsmith fix the problem, when there was a problem. Or they sent it back to the gun's maker. But the older guns were made to a different standard, and were typically bigger than they needed to be, made with more material than needed, but not necessarily more reliable than the guns we have today.

There weren't any compact hi-cap guns back in the good old days, or flush-fit (or nearly flush-fit) 20+ round mags. A gun the size of a CZ P-01 or Glock 19 that held 13 or 14 rounds didn't exist, back then. Sub-compact guns, when they existed, tended to be very small caliber guns, or derringers. Even the Browning Hi-Power, which was an older design (and one of the first to use a flush-fit double-stack mag) held only 13 rounds -- and it was a FULL SIZE gun! There was nothing like the Rohrbaugh R9, running 9mm rounds in a gun smaller than than most .380s (and almost as small as some of the .32 acp semi-autos.) The point that YOU and others continue to ignore is that a lot of our newer GUNS are different: smaller, lighter, and even with inflation, less expensive.

While spring technology hasn't changed much in the passing years, HOW springs are used in handguns HAS changed, and that may account for the rise of Wolff Springs, ISMI, and other spring vendors.

I don't change springs until I notice a functional problem. I also don't trade cars every couple of years, either -- but many do. That may be the same mindset at play, too: the fear of problems is more powerful than the actual experience of problems...

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Most of what is posted here is heresay. What I am telling you is from personal experience working with springs.

I call BS on your claim that most of what's posted here is heresay. Metallurgists who know what does and doesn't work have contributed to the discussions. (One made comments just yesterday!!) Other engineers who work with aviation and space applications have also contributed, and some of these folks have posted a number of technical links over the years, as well. You've had access to those links but apparently never bothered to investigate them or refute their content.

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

If a spring is going to "get weak" it will do it within the first couple of compressions- not thousands later.

Out of the thousands of springs I have made, not one has gotten weaker, and 4 have broken-all 4 from the same piece of steel.

I deal with, and make a lot of, leaf springs. They are just fine to leave tensioned. Old leaf springs may break from useage, but I have never run across a gun or switchblade leaf spring that "got weak." I have seen many thousands of them. They don't "take a set."

Your claim that leaf springs don't take a set may be correct, but may also be totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which is primarily about the coil springs used in semi-auto handguns. Coil springs do take a set.

Doubt it? Measure a recoil spring when it is first installed and measure it again a couple of weeks later after only limited use. You will see a measurable difference! Coil springs DO break in auto suspensions, too, but it's far more common for them to sag. A car owner can continue to drive a car with sagging coil springs -- but he or she may start slowing down before the next speed bump or rail crossing; a gun with a weakened (sagging) recoil or mag spring, however, has a gun that won't function properly (or at all), and that gun will be out of action until the spring is replaced. It won't happen to most folks, but it can happen.

You also continue to talk around a key point: that leaf springs, your specialty, and coil springs are fundamentally different in how they function and how they fail!. While similar materials can go into their makeup, coil springs work differently than leaf springs. Almost all of the spring material in a coil spring is involved in the work being done while a more concentrated part of the metal in a leaf spring does the work (and suffers the consequences if the metal is over-worked.) In autos, leaf springs also have a structural role -- and that may be true in some knife designs, as well -- but coil springs in handguns, by design, don't do that.

I'd argue that the springs you make and work with are arguably the knife-spring equivalents of the mag or recoil springs for 1911 magazines: good, solid springs that aren't over-stressed and which can't be over-stressed, if made right of the proper materials.

What you do is make new springs that copy an original design; those springs are intended to fit and function within the knife design's parameters. You're not trying to make the knives smaller, lighter, or more powerful. And as a consequence, there's aren't many knives that are the equivalent of a high-cap sub-compact 9mm or something like the Rohrbaugh R9 or the Ruger LCS. If the knife was a lot smaller, (as those two semi-autos are) that knife is NOT going to be able to do what a knife has to do (as the blade size and shape is the equivalent of a gun's bullet caliber and weight.) And, until you can show us a leaf recoil spring or a leaf mag spring that will fit and function in a handgun, your spring expertise may not have a lot of application in this discussion.

.

[ifithitu]

I don't know how long a magazine spring last,but if my magazine hole 12 rounds I load 10 rounds and one in the chamber to take pressure off the spring.Old war habit hard to break.

[wingman]

I recently left 2 magazines loaded for a year on a Makarov high capacity 10 rounds type. Upon firing slide would not lock back on last round once I changed springs all was well. In 50 years have not had a mag spring failure.
I guess we could say it was not a spring failure but slide lock back design.

[Bill DeShivs]

And I have magazines that have been loaded for 40 years that work fine,

And Walt- I'm on a business trip, so I don't have much time to spend here-but I will say this: springs are springs.
Leaf springs actually have to work much harder than coil springs in magazines.
All springs take a set the first few times they are compressed.
Notice I have not commented on subcompact pistols. Their springs may get overcompressed.

[Ibmikey]

Bill, You are pushing a dead horse up a hill, some of these "learned" folks have opinions that experience cannot overcome. I have been told through the years springs need to be relaxed every so often and also just the opposite, never worry about cycling them. I have had an old leaf spring break because of rust contamination but 100 + year old spriings in my Colt and Winchester rifles work just as well as the day they were made. Also, I had occasion to remove the ammo from a WWI vet's 1911 pistol that had been loaded since coming home from "The Great War". The pistol was corroded into the holster as was the magazinesop m in a leather carrier, when finally removed the ammo slid out of the magazines under spring tension. I am still using the mags but unfortundately the pistol was badly pitted.
I recently bought a new recoil spring for a Israeli Hi Power, not because the spring was defective but because it was obviously cut shorter...thanks to Brownells it functions just fine now.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Ibemikey

Bill, You are pushing a dead horse up a hill, some of these "learned" folks have opinions that experience cannot overcome. I have been told through the years springs need to be relaxed every so often and also just the opposite, never worry about cycling them. I have had an old leaf spring break because of rust contamination but 100 + year old spriings in my Colt and Winchester rifles work just as well as the day they were made. Also, I had occasion to remove the ammo from a WWI vet's 1911 pistol that had been loaded since coming home from "The Great War". The pistol was corroded into the holster as was the magazinesop m in a leather carrier, when finally removed the ammo slid out of the magazines under spring tension. I am still using the mags but unfortundately the pistol was badly pitted.
I recently bought a new recoil spring for a Israeli Hi Power, not because the spring was defective but because it was obviously cut shorter...thanks to Brownells it functions just fine now.

You seem to be VERY SELECTIVE in what your read (of what I wrote), and the examples you offer. I also said that 1911 mags will likely outlive the shooter, even if left fully loaded.

You will also note, that the only springs that are likely to be affected are the coil springs that are stressed to or past their design limits. For most full-size guns NOT running very hi-cap mags, the springs aren't likely to get compressed to or past their design limits.

Older guns were NEVER designed to push past their design limits -- just the newer ones, which are smaller, use the same springs to do more work (as in hi-cap mags), and use less springs to do more work (as in the sub-compact guns mentioned.)

Bill focuses on leaf springs in knives, and I'm sure the springs he builds are excellent springs. But they way they work it almost impossible to push them beyond their design limits, unless he makes then of different steel or smaller. There's no reason for him to do that.

I've also got mags that have never had springs replaced. Most of the mags I used in IDPA for years in my full-size guns (10-rounders picked up for that venue only) are still running like new.

In an earlier message I in this same discussion, I wrote:
[INDENT]The only CHANGE to any of the variables in this discussion in recent years is the move to new (sub-compact) gun designs that are much smaller (with less room for spring material) or to guns with much higher-capacity mags. In both of those situations, the springs are asked to do more in less space with less material than once was the case. In SOME of those cases, the springs can't last as long.

For those of us who are shooting full-size guns and not keeping our very hi-cap mags fully loaded all the time, spring wear will probably not be a problem. (And as others have said, replacing a recoil spring or a mag spring isn't all that expensive or hard to do...)[/QUOTE]

Do you disagree with those statements?

[qkarl]

Buy some extra mag springs then do whatever you like with your mags. Keep them loaded, empty them out, whatever. Springs are cheap, just test your mags once in a while.

[Ibmikey]

Qkarl, So much wisdom in such a short statement, I have to agree and hope it will place an end to this spring " discussion".

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

Leaf springs actually have to work much harder than coil springs in magazines.
All springs take a set the first few times they are compressed.
Notice I have not commented on subcompact pistols. Their springs may get overcompressed.

In making your statement above, I think you're assuming that all coil springs in modern gun are made to the same standards you use when making your knives and knife springs -- and that's arguably not the case (and probably not always possible). You are clearly averse to building a spring that is over-stressed when used... It would probably be difficult to do so in a knife, unless you used inferior materials or spring-making practices -- or designed a spring with less material to make the knife smaller or lighter! That isn't necessary or likely even desirable with a knife, but it might be appropriate with a semi-auto.

Some of the mag and recoil springs in newer gun designs and newer high cap mags appear to be INTENTIONALLY OVER-COMPRESSED -- because they can't get a gun that must be very small to function otherwise. They also can't get enough rounds in a very high-capacity mag without making the spring suffer. More work done with less material leads to shorter spring life in both cases.

Intentional over-stressing of the springs WAS NOT the practice with many older guns, and certainly was not the case with the 7-round 1911s. (Springs in 8-round 1911 mags, using the same tube and base, however, don't seem to be as reliable or durable as the 7-rounders.) INTENTIONAL OVER-STRESSING SPRINGS is still NOT a common practice with many new guns, but once you start getting to the smaller designs and higher capacities, spring life can be at risk. The Browning Hi-Power, which originally held 13 rounds, was once the standard for hi-cap mags. Now a number of newer guns put 20+ rounds into almost the same grip space. To do that, something has to give; in a few cases, at least, it is spring life.

Leaf springs in cars DO sag and BREAK-- and you can find examples in a lot of junk yards. Coil springs in cars break less often, and sagging seems more common. I've experienced both in cars I've owned since I started driving in the early 1960s -- and for the first 30 years or so, I did most of those kind of repairs myself.

Do some folks obsess about springs? Yes. Without cause? Perhaps.

But the folks who routinely change springs on a schedule do it for the peace of mind it offers them. I believe that if you shoot your weapons regularly you'll likely notice spring problems before it matters -- but some folks don't want to run that risk. Springs are cheap and easily changed.
.