Shotgun or AR-15 for Home defense?

[sgoeing]

Which do you think is better for home defense in an apartment? What ammo for each? I like the AR because of capacity and rapid fire. I like the shotgun because of ease of use for wife, choices of ammo and utter reliability. I have had very very few malfunctions in my Bushmaster but the rem 870 just seems flawless.
Thanks
Michael

[M1911]

Michael:

Can your wife handle the recoil from a 12ga pump gun? Will she short-stroke it under stress? In contrast, the AR has essetinally no recoil.

The shotgun has more stopping power at short range. And the shotgun is a lot harder for the District Attorney to paint as an "evil assault weapon."

Either is suitable. Either has advantages and disadvantages. YMMV.

M1911

[Spatula]

Not to mention the sound from a 223 fired inside a small room! Besides, the muzzle of a 12 gauge is very intimidating!

[SLK978]

In an apartment, penetration will be an issue. I'd go with the 870.

[Joe Demko]

Neither. Both weapons are overly long and too highly penetrative for what you are describing. Maybe an AR-type carbine loaded with highly frangible varmint bullets, if I were going to choose a long gun for apartment defense. I'd go with a handgun loaded with some really good hollow point or pre-fragmented ammo. If you are like many apartment dwellers, you have neighbors on three sides, above you, and below you. You can't afford too much in the way of overpenetration.

[Steel]

Hard to beat the wham of a 12 gauge, not to mention the sound of a pump chambering a round in the dark.

[sgoeing]

I keep my Beretta 92 and Glock 30 bedside also. I just find a rifle/shotgun to be somewhat comforting. I actually live in a townhouse. Neighbors on one side, front and other side brick. As for my wife she shoots the 12 gauge alright. I'm triing to get her to take some classes. As for penetration I have always heard that m193 ball penetrates less than buckshot or slugs.

[M1911]

Suprisingly enough, .223 penetrates less numbers of walls than 9mm.

M1911

[Cato]

Definitly Ar 15- you don't have to worry about body armour (no special ammo needed), no recoil=great shot to shot speed, equal stopping power to 12GA, 30 shot/magazine for those home invasions days, shorter than legal (18"barrel) shotgun, no danger of overpentration (compared to slugs & handgun ammo!), etc.
Moreover innocent bystanders are less at risk and a hostage shot is possible (every tried that with buckshot?).

[Bogie]

Get a 20 gauge and load it with a Winchester AA Light Trap load of #8 or #9 shot... Will go through one side of a wall, but not the other. Will turn a robber that's in front of it into hamburger at indoor distances.

Any SOLID cartridge, from .22 on up, goes through two pieces of wallboard, and thus isn't all that suitable for apartment defense, unless you really don't like your neighbors.

And yes, I've tested the above loads on some "walls" that we constructed from left over building supplies.

[Jeff White]

Many police departments are replacing the shotguns they carry for patrol duty with 5.56 mm rifles. The advantages are less chance of over penetration in common building materials (actually the rounds penetrate, but break into small fragments that quickly lose velocity), only one projectile at a time to account for (have you patterned a lot of 18-20" shotgun barrels?), better ergonomics and easier for small statured female officers to handle with the minimal training they devote to that type of weapon. Additionally you get reliable penetration against soft body armor.

I predict that within 10 years the shotgun will be relegated to a special purpose role (gas, less lethal munitions) in most agencies.

I think that these reasons make it a better weapon for home defense. As for the district attorney making an issue out of the weapon that was used in a legal defensive shooting, I think that's largely urban legend. Can anyone cite a court case on this for me?

Jeff

[Arizona Fusilier]

I find that hard to believe. .223 penetrating less than 9mm? With all due respect, please quote some references.

People think shotgun, they think 00 buck. #4 buck is .22 in caliber, and touted by some. More projectiles, but not the momentum, and consequent overpenetration. In an urban environment, the nod goes to the shotgun.

Hate to pander to stereotypes, but the shotgun has legendary deterent effects with its distinctive racking sound. BG wouldn't know you were armed with an AR-15, until the moment of truth comes.

The operative constraint here is "apartment". You are resonsible for every projectile you send downrange. Other situations would make the AR the first choice.

That said, Mossberg 500 is loaded by the bed in my apartment, but Galil in .223 is also ready to go. I like options, given the situation.

[M1911]

Arizona Fusilier:

Check out the IWBA Wound Ballistics Review. Here's what I found on Tactical Forums, from a poster who appears to work for or with a major police department:

"In testing, the 55 gr M193 FMJ exhibited minimal fragmentation and deformation after first passing through an interior wall. Conversely, the 62 gr M855 FMJ "green tip" had exactly the opposite performance when first hitting an interior wall; it exhibited significant early fragmentation, with only the steel core tip penetrating beyond 19 cm. Since all of the 5.56mm/.223 bullets fired through interior walls had significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through interior walls, stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and in crowded urban environments than 9mm, .40 S&W, or 12 ga. weapons. Please refer to the IWBA Wound Ballistics Review. 3 (4):16-28, 1998."

Here's the link to that thread:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/ubb/Fo...ML/000116.html

M1911

[Joe Demko]

Every time shotguns come up, that "legendary" racking sound gets mentioned. If you are racking a shotgun in this situation, you were running around with it chamber empty...giving your opponent an extra second in which to put you down if you confront him unprepared. Likewise, if he doesn't see you, racking it is just throwing away your advantage of surprise. What a surprise for you if he fires at the sound. The only sound he should (maybe) hear from your shotgun is its blast when you shoot him. Let's put this "legend" to rest, shall we? Police don't rack shotguns to intimidate people, they do it because most depts. mandate the shotgun be carried in the car chamber empty as a safety measure.

[Ned Roundtree]

Ditto SLK978 on better use of shotgun. 9mm more wall penetration than a .223 ?? You would have to show me that one. M1911, I'll definetly have to read that thread. Thansk for posting your source.

[Ned Roundtree]

Thanks M1911 for your source. You may want to reread. They are discussing 55gr vs. 62gr in .223. Even at that to decrease velocity they are saying URBAN COMMANDOS are using 10 inch barrels on their M-16s. That's just to reduce the speed to 2500 fps (according to the writer). In swat urban situatons many are using 9mm ammo to decrease the risk of going through too many walls. Even in that discussion of 55gr vs 62gr, Randy Cain (need we say more), states his opinion is not based on empirical data, rather experience. Well, good enough for me. But he is talking about 55gr being superior over 62gr in urban combat. Less penetration through walls than 62gr.
Indoors in an apartment situation, stay with shotgun.

[sgoeing]

The higher velocities in the 223 is what causes it to penetrate less. These velocities give it an explosive nature. Once the velocity drops significantly it will over penetrate because it no longer fragments.

[Jeff White]

Ned,
I think you're misreading the data on Firearms Tactical. .223/5.56mm does penetrate less then 9mm or most shotgun ammo. It is the higher velocity that makes it penetrate less. At velocities above 2500 fps (more reliably above 2700 fps) both M193 (55gr) and M855 (62gr) break at the cannulure and fragment. This is also what causes the devestating wounds that these rounds produce. These smaller fragments WILL penetrate as much or more building materials as 9mm or buckshot, but they rapidly lose velocity and are less of a hazard to innocents who may inadvertantly be behind the apartment wall then 9mm or buckshot. So it is somewhat of a misnomer that they penetrate less, they are just less lethal after penetration then either pistol caliber rounds or buckshot.

I'm not aware of any police tactical units that are using 10" barrels to reduce velocity on their M16s. I suppose it's possible someone is, but by and far the most popular 5.56mm weapon for this purpose is the Colt M4 Carbine which has a 14.5" barrel.

Jeff

[M1911]

Ned:

I have to disagree with you. He clearly states: " Since all of the 5.56mm/.223 bullets fired through interior walls had significantly less penetration than 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 12 ga. shotgun projectiles which were fired through interior walls, stray 5.56mm/.223 bullets seem to offer a reduced risk of injuring innocent bystanders and an inherent reduced risk of civil litigation in situations where bullets miss their intended target and enter or exit structures. 5.56mm/.223 caliber weapons may be safer to use in CQB situations and in crowded urban environments than 9mm, .40 S&W, or 12 ga. weapons."

M1911

[M1911]

Jeff said:

"I think that these reasons make it a better weapon for home defense. As for the district attorney making an issue out of the weapon that was used in a legal defensive shooting, I think that's largely urban legend. Can anyone cite a court case on this for me?"

No I can't. But at LFI-1, Ayoob spoke about a case that he consulted on. IIRC, the perp was banging on the outside of the front door. The defendent shot the perp through the door, using an SKS. According to Ayoob, the military nature of the SKS was used by the DA to try to demonize the defendent. I've got his book, the Ayoob files, so I'll try to remember to check it and see if he covers this incident.

M1911

[Jeff White]

M1911,

If Ayoob consulted on it, there must have been some kind of extenuating circumstances, but on it's face value, I can see where shooting through a door might be questionable in the eyes of a prosecutor. As with every situation it's good to get all of the facts. I'd be interested to hear about the case.

I went to an Illinois Criminal Law Update for police officers a while back and this very subject was brought up. Kevin Burke (who is a law professor at Southern Illinois University and former Secret Service Agent and Assistant States Attorney in one of the collar counties around Chicago, I don't remember which just now) stated that if the act of self defense was legal, the tool that was used was immaterial. This same standard probably won't hold true in the inevitable civil suit, but in the eyes of the law, at least in Illinois it doesn't make any difference if you defended yourself with a classic Parker shotgun or a Tec 9. Probably if there hadn't been a question about the shooting to start with, the prosecutor wouldn't have attempted to make an issue out of the weapon used. In my experience prosectuors don't take cases to court they don't think they can win. I guess the solution is not to involve yourself in a defensive shooting that "looks" bad. Then the prosecutor won't look for ways to demonize you to the jury as he sees his case slipping away. Like I said I'd love to know the details of the entire case. And also if the jury aquitted the defendant or let the prosecutor make an issue of the weapon used.

Jeff

[M1911]

Jeff:

My memory is somewhat hazy on this, but I'll do my best to answer your questions and comments. Hopefully I won't misrepresent it too badly...

Certainly, shooting through the door was an issue (probably the MAJOR issue). If the defendent had waited until the perp had broken down the door, the result probably would have been entirely different. IIRC, the defendent was found guilty of a lesser charge (one of the forms of manslaughter). But IIRC, the DA did use the military appearance of the gun to try to demonize the defendent.

I agree with you that in a perfectly clear-cut case, your choice of firearm is likely to have zero effect. For example, an armed, escaped rapist breaks into the home of a young mother and tells her he's going to rape her. She kills him with an AR15.

My concern is that in a less clear-cut case, the DA will try to use whatever they can to demonize the defendent. And using a military-style gun may be giving the DA extra ammunition, so to speak. Clearly, I think this is somewhat dependent upon jurisdiction. I suspect it would likely be a non-issue in west Texas. Where I live in suburban Boston, on the other hand, I could easily see our ambitious, media-hungry DA try to exploit such a case to get herself in front of the cameras. After all, she undoubtedly wants to be Attorney General, and what better way than to whip up the media into a frenzy about the suburban neighboorhood man, who wasn't what he looked like, he was actually a militia-wacko-killer living in the midst of the quiet suburbs with an ARSENAL of EVIL ASSAULT RIFLES, one of which he used to MURDER this poor unfortunate soul who happened to break into the wrong house...

Maybe that's just paranoid delusions. But here in MA, I could easily see it happening.

M1911

[Jeff White]

M1911,

Thanks for the info. I can see where a DA where you live could be a problem. But then again, if there is nothing to question about the circumstances this is probably not going to be an issue. I guess the solution is to get as much training as you can afford, including training in the laws as they pertain to self defense where you live. Then hopefully you won't put yourself in that situation. Outside of Ayoob's classes, I'm not aware of much training that's available to non-sworn people on the law and judgement in those self defense situations. Most schools just concentrate on the mechanics of marksmanship and basic tactics.

I'm sure your DA would not hesitate to display your collection of black rifles on TV if you had the misfortune of being arrested for some obscure white collar crime. It all serves to sensationalize the case and make her look good when it comes time for re-election or re-appointment. In fact if I know the type, she'd more likely try to use your hobby against you then, then if you were involved in an unquestionable legal defensive shooting. After all, it'd be hard to make you look like the bad guy if everything was above board and the attacker had a long criminal record. Most people would be turned off by her suggestion that you couldn't defend yourself in your own home. Now when the "victim's" family sues you civilly for wrongful death, you'll probably be portrayed to the jury as a right wing gun nut who left his doors unlocked, displayed large amounts of cash on you coffee table (visible through the picture window) and therefore created an ambush situation so you could act out your violent vigilante fantasies on some poor down trodden less fortunate member of society. Have I mentioned I'm for Tort reform big time LOL

Jeff

[Sneevil]

cato said:

Definitly Ar 15- you don't have to worry about body armour (no special ammo needed), no recoil=great shot to shot speed, equal stopping power to 12GA

equal stopping power to 12ga???????

how do you figure?

A 12 gauge slug @ 1600fps develops 3110 foot pounds at the muzzle!

http://www.federalcartridge.com/andex3.html


somewhat the inverse of the .223

http://www.federalcartridge.com/andex3.html

If a COM hit with a 12 gauge will not stop whatever it is, neither will the 223.


[Edited by Sneevil on 01-25-2001 at 10:42 PM]

[Gary H]

That's my plan.

I believe that the shotgun is a great tool for bedroom defense. The handgun is useful should I need to move to another location. I still don't feel comfortable passing through doors with a long gun.

My Carbon 15 is a black, nasty looking gun. I decided that my local, ultra-liberal legal system would not look kindly upon my use of such a weapon. I think that the political reality in my area is extreme. The Carbon 15 comes out of the safe when all hell breaks loose. I don't see that happening, but I would certainly want thirty rounds available. In fact, I would not want to be hit with projectiles from any of these weapons.