Suggestions needed on the Front Gate.

Firepower! · November 26, 2009, 09:05 AM

Hello
I have started to build a new home myself in the country side (my native village). I am making this house very sound, security wise- since I live very close to the border and other elements that could go terribly worng.

I am in need of suggestions as to what material should be used in the front gate to stop a caliber 50 round from the point blank range. I dont have access to fancy metal. I just need to know how to use steel, rubber, wood, etc to make it safe for myself and family.

Thanks

MTT TL · November 26, 2009, 09:36 AM

If you are talking about .50 BMG M903 you need 3.5" of steel or you can use 2 X 1" plates with a 6" gravel baffle between them. Either would make the gate really, really heavy and likely impractical.

The old .50 BMG AP round would require about 1" of steel but I don't know if that would stop the 12.7mm. This would also be really heavy.

Most agencies don't bother trying to make the gate itself armored as it is not really practical. Putting layered overlapping barriers is a much cheaper and easier solution. A better solution would be barrier material and make the gate lightly armored, say against 7.62X39. This can be stopped by ".5 plate at 100 meters. Even that would be heavy.

I guess I should mention I am talking about armor plate, (face hardened steel) not some pot metal mixed up in someone's backyard metal shop. If that were the case you would need more.

wally626 · November 26, 2009, 09:59 AM

I think as Firepower mentioned your best solution is to have multiple gates. Each armored against smaller calipers. As long as the gates are not aligned a bullet cannot go through both gates. If the outer gate is breached the attackers would still need to defeat the second gate from a very cramped and potentially vulnerable area.

Glenn Dee · November 26, 2009, 10:16 AM

What about the fence?.... Have you considered concrete barriers?... Is your house on the high ground?... In my opinion .... and thats all it is... The.50 Cal. is more a long distance shooter used by a skilled technician. Or a tool of overwhelming firepower as the .50 BMG. ( used in a machine gun ). Anyway what border are we talking about the one where you may have to worry about taliban types? I'd like to ask you this... What kind of arsonal do you have? Do you have a plan to repulse intruders? Are you allowed military grade weaponry?

In a similar situation I'd probably build two solid wood walls and fill the gap with gravel, broken concrete, and scrap steel...

45Gunner · November 26, 2009, 11:39 AM

Cement Block filled with sand or cement makes a pretty decent reinforcement.

wally626 · November 26, 2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

What about the fence?.... Have you considered concrete barriers?... Is your house on the high ground?... In my opinion .... and thats all it is... The.50 Cal. is more a long distance shooter used by a skilled technician. Or a tool of overwhelming firepower as the .50 BMG. ( used in a machine gun ). Anyway what border are we talking about the one where you may have to worry about taliban types? I'd like to ask you this... What kind of arsonal do you have? Do you have a plan to repulse intruders? Are you allowed military grade weaponry?

The OP lists his residence as Pakistan, I can see the need for a bit more in the way of bullet-proof structure then say for someone worried about Canadians.

B. Lahey · November 26, 2009, 02:50 PM

A steel shell filled with a thick layer of mud-brick or sandbags or something of that sort would probably do the job. It would be very heavy, but you may be able to rig a counterweight to help move it.

John Clum · November 26, 2009, 02:52 PM

Firepower, I would caution you about posting many details about yourself or your location online.

That said, I think I might simply protect the gate with walls. Either two parallel walls flanking the approach, with a 90 degree turn needed to enter the gate, or simply a wall in front of the gate that you drive around to get to the gate.

LIKE THIS--

W
A
L
L
W
A
L
L WALLWALLWALLWALLWALLWALL
W
A
L
L GATE WALLWALLWALLWALLWALL
...........A
...........L
...........L
...........W
...........A
...........L
...........L

OR THIS--

..............WALLWALLWALLL

WALLWALLWALL GATE WALLWALLWALL

Firepower! · November 27, 2009, 01:24 AM

Well the caution is been taken keeping in view Taliban insurgents and possible Pakistan-India war.

The house is being built on hig ground. I own quite few automatic firearms. Given a weeks time I can put together a force of 1000 people, but that is not the idea here. Here I want to focus on the best solution to repulse an attack by band of people who try to break through the gates.

In the design thus far, there is first a concrete barrier about 50 feet from the building (to stop a suicide attack). Then a fancy gate. Then the gate in question. Also, I have made the entrace of the gate as such that it is on the turn from the main road, thus slowing a vehicle to no more than 10-20 MPH at maximum. This is because the said turn is blinded by a mountain. The only possibility of ramming in to the main gate is that if the barrier is crossed and the vehile speeds up in the parkiing area (about 50-100) between the barrier and the main gate.

I know this gate will end up being very heavy so I am think it should be on rollers to slide open and close. The building is on 2 acres so its a huge house so to speak. Rest of the sides and walled with what we call plum concrete. It is mixture of concrete and stones.

Chindo18Z · November 27, 2009, 04:05 AM

Firepower!: Your primary gate threat is not .50 / 12.7mm heavy machinegun fire; it is an explosive charge carried to the gate by a vehicle.

Block the gate by use of blast walls, earthen berms, and HESCO barriers (fabric baskets wrapped in steel wire mesh and filled with earth, sand, or gravel).

You need standoff ballistic protection to ensure that nobody can get up to the gate with either a vehicle-borne IED or a heavy vehicle that can be used to ram the gate open.

Serpentine barriers constructed out of gravel filled tires, Jersey Barriers, HESCOs, or reinforced concrete tetrahedrons are all viable to protect the access path to the gate.

Attempting to ballistically panel or build a super-gate resistant to .50 cal will merely result in an unusable gate (due to weight).

Protect the approaches to the gate with anti-vehicular barrier ditches.

From a distance (twenty-five to several hundred meters), your gate should not be visible to line of sight fire and should be protected by both ditches and thick berms.

I'm familiar with typical metal gate construction in your region. They offer negligable protection against a determined assault force (who will ram, breach, or scale the gate), nor do they offer any significant resistance to explosives.

Protect the gate with earth and/or concrete directly in front of it and built to at least half the the height of your wall. Cover the immediate 5-10 meters of space in front of the gate by small arms fire (machinegun) to preclude someone using a vehicular mounted heavy weapon on your gate guards. Incorporate RPGs in your defense (I'm pretty sure you can find some) to defeat vehicles and crew served weapons out to 900 meters.

If your gate opens directly onto a street or pedestrian pathway, your problem becomes more complex (as you don't have the space to erect serpentine barriers, berms, or blast walls). In that case, dig a ditch (at least 2 meters wide and 1 meter deep) along the exterior property line of your street facing walls. Emplace two concrete barriers at the street entrance which forces anyone attempting to approach the gate to do so at a 90 degree angle (perpendicular) pathway from that street. This will ensure all vehicles being forced to make an extremely low speed approach to your gate (say about 5-10 KPH). Utilize your standard decorative steel gate facing the street. But inside the gate, emplace a secondary vehicle-wide hallway (constructed of barrier material) leading to ANOTHER offset gate at least 15 meters inside the outer perimeter gate. Anyone breaching the front gate is channelized into a ballistically protected and blastproof chamber which allows for defenders to fire from a bunker or fire down from an elevated emplacement.

Alternatively, fill a cargo truck, trailer, or dumptruck container with a load of gravel/sand and simply drive it across and behind your gate to block entry and protect from direct fire.

If you are worried about esthetics, emplace your exterior frontal barriers, cover with soil, and plant with grass, small trees, and ornamental shrubs or flowers.

Emplace razor wire or concertina on top of your wall and gate. If this appears too agressive for your locale, emplace the same wire on the inside of your wall and gate (bolted and hanging from the inside top of the wall and just below line of sight from the street). Emplace a second layer on the interior grounds just far enough inside your perimeter that a man could not jump from the top of the wall and clear it. Emplace barb wire strands at ankle height coursing through any tall grass or vegetation that might exist along your walls or gate approaches.

John Clum has already given you some viable gate emplacement solutions.

http://www.bing.com/reference/semhtml/Hesco_bastion?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_barrier

http://www.planterbarrier.com/

After re-reading your requirement for stopping .50 at point blank range, I think I understand what you might be facing. The best way to stop that fire is to kill the gunner. Followed by the Leader. Then the driver. Their vehicle now blocks the gate.

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...g/50_ammo.html

To reliably defeat common US manufactured .50 cal API, you are going to require a steel gate constructed of at least 1" (25mm) thick armor plate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12.7x108mm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPV_heavy_machine_gun

The weight of armor required to stop such cartridges, combined with the framing, track rails, and motor necessary to move such a gate would tend to render the concept almost impractical (unless you really have a great deal of money). If so, hire an engineering firm to construct what you desire.

As others have mentioned, your answer is to use multiple offset and protected gates. Creative placement of several feet of thick stone, earth, and concrete is a more viable solution than steel plate.

Good Luck.

DWARREN123 · November 27, 2009, 04:46 AM

Lamination of different materials and metal plates, air spaces, rammed earth.

MTT TL · November 28, 2009, 08:46 AM

Anyway, 1" case hardened steel as I mentioned that will stop .50 BMG AP weighs 41 pounds per square foot or about 175 kilos per square meter. This means that a small vehicle gate (2X4 meters) would weigh 1400 kilos, just for the armor and probably close to 2000 total kilos for the gate. You would need a roller on a track to open and close it. But it still would not stop the top end AP rounds. (for that your gate would weigh about 6000 kilos)

November 26, 2009, 09:05 AM	#1
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Suggestions needed on the Front Gate. Hello I have started to build a new home myself in the country side (my native village). I am making this house very sound, security wise- since I live very close to the border and other elements that could go terribly worng. I am in need of suggestions as to what material should be used in the front gate to stop a caliber 50 round from the point blank range. I dont have access to fancy metal. I just need to know how to use steel, rubber, wood, etc to make it safe for myself and family. Thanks Last edited by Firepower!; November 27, 2009 at 04:20 AM.

November 26, 2009, 09:36 AM	#2
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	If you are talking about .50 BMG M903 you need 3.5" of steel or you can use 2 X 1" plates with a 6" gravel baffle between them. Either would make the gate really, really heavy and likely impractical. The old .50 BMG AP round would require about 1" of steel but I don't know if that would stop the 12.7mm. This would also be really heavy. Most agencies don't bother trying to make the gate itself armored as it is not really practical. Putting layered overlapping barriers is a much cheaper and easier solution. A better solution would be barrier material and make the gate lightly armored, say against 7.62X39. This can be stopped by ".5 plate at 100 meters. Even that would be heavy. I guess I should mention I am talking about armor plate, (face hardened steel) not some pot metal mixed up in someone's backyard metal shop. If that were the case you would need more. __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.

November 26, 2009, 11:39 AM	#5
45Gunner Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,902	Cement Block filled with sand or cement makes a pretty decent reinforcement. __________________ 45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member

November 26, 2009, 02:50 PM	#7
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	A steel shell filled with a thick layer of mud-brick or sandbags or something of that sort would probably do the job. It would be very heavy, but you may be able to rig a counterweight to help move it. __________________ "A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards." -George Orwell

November 27, 2009, 01:24 AM	#9
Firepower! Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2008 Posts: 2,109	Well the caution is been taken keeping in view Taliban insurgents and possible Pakistan-India war. The house is being built on hig ground. I own quite few automatic firearms. Given a weeks time I can put together a force of 1000 people, but that is not the idea here. Here I want to focus on the best solution to repulse an attack by band of people who try to break through the gates. In the design thus far, there is first a concrete barrier about 50 feet from the building (to stop a suicide attack). Then a fancy gate. Then the gate in question. Also, I have made the entrace of the gate as such that it is on the turn from the main road, thus slowing a vehicle to no more than 10-20 MPH at maximum. This is because the said turn is blinded by a mountain. The only possibility of ramming in to the main gate is that if the barrier is crossed and the vehile speeds up in the parkiing area (about 50-100) between the barrier and the main gate. I know this gate will end up being very heavy so I am think it should be on rollers to slide open and close. The building is on 2 acres so its a huge house so to speak. Rest of the sides and walled with what we call plum concrete. It is mixture of concrete and stones. Last edited by Firepower!; November 27, 2009 at 04:25 AM. Reason: add some more facts on gate location with reference to vehicle attempting to ram in to it.

November 26, 2009, 09:59 AM	#3
wally626 Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2009 Posts: 642	I think as Firepower mentioned your best solution is to have multiple gates. Each armored against smaller calipers. As long as the gates are not aligned a bullet cannot go through both gates. If the outer gate is breached the attackers would still need to defeat the second gate from a very cramped and potentially vulnerable area.

November 26, 2009, 10:16 AM	#4
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	What about the fence?.... Have you considered concrete barriers?... Is your house on the high ground?... In my opinion .... and thats all it is... The.50 Cal. is more a long distance shooter used by a skilled technician. Or a tool of overwhelming firepower as the .50 BMG. ( used in a machine gun ). Anyway what border are we talking about the one where you may have to worry about taliban types? I'd like to ask you this... What kind of arsonal do you have? Do you have a plan to repulse intruders? Are you allowed military grade weaponry? In a similar situation I'd probably build two solid wood walls and fill the gap with gravel, broken concrete, and scrap steel...

November 26, 2009, 02:52 PM	#8
John Clum Member Join Date: January 27, 2007 Location: Tacoma, WA Posts: 67	Firepower, I would caution you about posting many details about yourself or your location online. That said, I think I might simply protect the gate with walls. Either two parallel walls flanking the approach, with a 90 degree turn needed to enter the gate, or simply a wall in front of the gate that you drive around to get to the gate. LIKE THIS-- W A L L W A L L WALLWALLWALLWALLWALLWALL W A L L GATE WALLWALLWALLWALLWALL ...........A ...........L ...........L ...........W ...........A ...........L ...........L OR THIS-- ..............WALLWALLWALLL WALLWALLWALL GATE WALLWALLWALL

November 27, 2009, 04:05 AM	#10
Chindo18Z Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 1999 Posts: 498	Firepower!: Your primary gate threat is not .50 / 12.7mm heavy machinegun fire; it is an explosive charge carried to the gate by a vehicle. Block the gate by use of blast walls, earthen berms, and HESCO barriers (fabric baskets wrapped in steel wire mesh and filled with earth, sand, or gravel). You need standoff ballistic protection to ensure that nobody can get up to the gate with either a vehicle-borne IED or a heavy vehicle that can be used to ram the gate open. Serpentine barriers constructed out of gravel filled tires, Jersey Barriers, HESCOs, or reinforced concrete tetrahedrons are all viable to protect the access path to the gate. Attempting to ballistically panel or build a super-gate resistant to .50 cal will merely result in an unusable gate (due to weight). Protect the approaches to the gate with anti-vehicular barrier ditches. From a distance (twenty-five to several hundred meters), your gate should not be visible to line of sight fire and should be protected by both ditches and thick berms. I'm familiar with typical metal gate construction in your region. They offer negligable protection against a determined assault force (who will ram, breach, or scale the gate), nor do they offer any significant resistance to explosives. Protect the gate with earth and/or concrete directly in front of it and built to at least half the the height of your wall. Cover the immediate 5-10 meters of space in front of the gate by small arms fire (machinegun) to preclude someone using a vehicular mounted heavy weapon on your gate guards. Incorporate RPGs in your defense (I'm pretty sure you can find some) to defeat vehicles and crew served weapons out to 900 meters. If your gate opens directly onto a street or pedestrian pathway, your problem becomes more complex (as you don't have the space to erect serpentine barriers, berms, or blast walls). In that case, dig a ditch (at least 2 meters wide and 1 meter deep) along the exterior property line of your street facing walls. Emplace two concrete barriers at the street entrance which forces anyone attempting to approach the gate to do so at a 90 degree angle (perpendicular) pathway from that street. This will ensure all vehicles being forced to make an extremely low speed approach to your gate (say about 5-10 KPH). Utilize your standard decorative steel gate facing the street. But inside the gate, emplace a secondary vehicle-wide hallway (constructed of barrier material) leading to ANOTHER offset gate at least 15 meters inside the outer perimeter gate. Anyone breaching the front gate is channelized into a ballistically protected and blastproof chamber which allows for defenders to fire from a bunker or fire down from an elevated emplacement. Alternatively, fill a cargo truck, trailer, or dumptruck container with a load of gravel/sand and simply drive it across and behind your gate to block entry and protect from direct fire. If you are worried about esthetics, emplace your exterior frontal barriers, cover with soil, and plant with grass, small trees, and ornamental shrubs or flowers. Emplace razor wire or concertina on top of your wall and gate. If this appears too agressive for your locale, emplace the same wire on the inside of your wall and gate (bolted and hanging from the inside top of the wall and just below line of sight from the street). Emplace a second layer on the interior grounds just far enough inside your perimeter that a man could not jump from the top of the wall and clear it. Emplace barb wire strands at ankle height coursing through any tall grass or vegetation that might exist along your walls or gate approaches. John Clum has already given you some viable gate emplacement solutions. http://www.bing.com/reference/semhtml/Hesco_bastion? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jersey_barrier http://www.planterbarrier.com/ After re-reading your requirement for stopping .50 at point blank range, I think I understand what you might be facing. The best way to stop that fire is to kill the gunner. Followed by the Leader. Then the driver. Their vehicle now blocks the gate. http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...g/50_ammo.html To reliably defeat common US manufactured .50 cal API, you are going to require a steel gate constructed of at least 1" (25mm) thick armor plate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12.7x108mm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPV_heavy_machine_gun The weight of armor required to stop such cartridges, combined with the framing, track rails, and motor necessary to move such a gate would tend to render the concept almost impractical (unless you really have a great deal of money). If so, hire an engineering firm to construct what you desire. As others have mentioned, your answer is to use multiple offset and protected gates. Creative placement of several feet of thick stone, earth, and concrete is a more viable solution than steel plate. Good Luck. __________________ Figure The Odds... Last edited by Chindo18Z; November 27, 2009 at 04:58 AM.

November 27, 2009, 04:46 AM	#11
DWARREN123 Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2006 Location: BETWEEN TN & KY Posts: 1,758	Lamination of different materials and metal plates, air spaces, rammed earth. __________________ Have a nice day!

November 28, 2009, 08:46 AM	#12
MTT TL Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2009 Location: Quadling Country Posts: 2,780	Anyway, 1" case hardened steel as I mentioned that will stop .50 BMG AP weighs 41 pounds per square foot or about 175 kilos per square meter. This means that a small vehicle gate (2X4 meters) would weigh 1400 kilos, just for the armor and probably close to 2000 total kilos for the gate. You would need a roller on a track to open and close it. But it still would not stop the top end AP rounds. (for that your gate would weigh about 6000 kilos) __________________ Thus a man should endeavor to reach this high place of courage with all his heart, and, so trying, never be backward in war.