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View Poll Results: Does an Armed Citizen have a Moral/Ethical Duty to Retreat (complete safety) | |||
Yep, at all times | 30 | 13.89% | |
Nope, Never | 92 | 42.59% | |
Yep, but only on the street, not in the Home/Business | 63 | 29.17% | |
I'm not ansering because I dont want to seem either wimpy or bloodthirsty | 15 | 6.94% | |
I'd rather have pic of you and Spiff iwearing spandex loincloths lard wrestling in a baby pool. | 16 | 7.41% | |
Voters: 216. You may not vote on this poll |
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June 25, 2009, 01:40 PM | #526 | ||
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Huh? Is this a typo? Merriam Websters Dictionary - Trespass Quote:
Last edited by bababooey32; June 25, 2009 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Add link to m-w.com |
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June 25, 2009, 01:41 PM | #527 | |
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You won't change my mind and I won't change yours so we'll just agree to disagree...
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June 25, 2009, 01:43 PM | #528 | |
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Every respected security expert in the country recommends avoiding a confrontation with someone who breaks into your home. Why would anyone ignore that advice? |
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June 25, 2009, 01:48 PM | #529 | |
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To take a life other than with the certainty that you had no other choice is unethical/immoral IMHO. WildtheyarecryinginmadridAlaska ™ |
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June 25, 2009, 01:48 PM | #530 | ||
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June 25, 2009, 01:50 PM | #531 | |
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June 25, 2009, 01:53 PM | #532 | |||
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Outdoors, if there is imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm, deadly force would be in justified, unless safe retreat (in my jurisdiction) is possible. Other alternatives? Well, I do carry a Kimber Pepperblaster as a less-than-lethal alternative, but I don't think I'll use it if imminent danger of death actually exists. And I sure as heck don't intend to wrestle with an armed assailant. But perhaps I miss your point. Quote:
That's the law. The requirement stems from laws established around 1200 A. D. and later adopted by most of our states. In practice, it has changed due to the advent of firearms. If the perp has a gun, it's highly probable that I cannot safely retreat. In some places, retreat is no longer required. |
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June 25, 2009, 01:54 PM | #533 | ||
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These are amusing scenarios to discuss but neither case is really the same as a voluntary armed confrontation with a burglar in your home. |
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June 25, 2009, 01:57 PM | #534 | |
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June 25, 2009, 01:59 PM | #535 | |
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WildAlaska
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GO USA! |
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June 25, 2009, 02:00 PM | #536 | ||
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June 25, 2009, 02:06 PM | #537 | |
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That attack caused him to pull the knife to defend himself. |
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June 25, 2009, 02:10 PM | #538 | ||||
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June 25, 2009, 02:10 PM | #539 | |
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That's what the charging authority and a trial jury would evaluate. The decision must be made quickly based on what the actor knows at the time. Certainty would be not only unreasonable but unattainable. Now, going back to your original post, the question becomes one of "necessary for what?". If it's to protect property at night, it's legal in one state, but I wouldn't do it. If it's to effect a citizen's arrest for certain dire crimes under certain circumstances, it's legal in one (different) state, but I probably wouldn't do it. But to protect against death or serious bodily harm? No second thoughts about it. |
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June 25, 2009, 02:17 PM | #540 | |
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June 25, 2009, 02:19 PM | #541 | ||
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June 25, 2009, 02:24 PM | #542 | ||
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I've been reafing this thread (and a couple of others, here in T&T) since shortly after they started.
I've reached a point where I feel I can answer with my own views. So.... Quote:
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By conflating morals and ethics, the question, as it was presented, is essentially unanswerable. That is the simple and short answer to the OP's question. However, I feel a slightly expanded answer is necessary to explain why the question cannot be answered. The moral responsibilities of an individual within a specific situation, do not always fall neatly into place with respect to any particular societies ethos, and the participants responsibilities to their social ethics. Further, by choosing the word "duty" over "responsibility," to contain the actions of the individual, Ken has conflated the meanings of duty and responsibility, as they relate to the moral/ethical imperative of the question. A duty is something one is obliged to perform for moral or legal reasons. A responsibility is something that binds one to an obligation and encompasses certain courses of action that are demanded by a force. In this case, morality. The legality of an actors actions have no bearing upon the actors moral responsibilities, whereas, such legalities do enforce (contain or restrain) the actors actions in the case of duties. The question (and the poll) is therefore in tension with itself and is unanswerable. |
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June 25, 2009, 02:24 PM | #543 |
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Just from a rational perspective is is pretty unwise to shoot someone when you have a choice. The cost ALONE should be a MASSIVE deterrent, even if the moral question is not.
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June 25, 2009, 02:32 PM | #544 |
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Al
So would you shoot or not?
Though I suppose boring the intruder to near-death with a treatise on morals vs. ethics and the societal impacts of shirking one's responsibilities might be a nice non-lethal way of "ending the threat" (though it might be considered cruel and unusual!). But seriously, we can parse the question all day and all night. I think it is evident what WA is asking. |
June 25, 2009, 02:34 PM | #545 |
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You're kidding, right?
If someone attacks me, I may have a legal duty to retreat in some states - thank God, not in Texas - but I have no moral duty to do anything except defend myself and/or my property.
If my attacker loses life or limb in the process, the choice to start the trouble was his, not mine. Last edited by Big Ugly Tall Texan; June 25, 2009 at 02:44 PM. |
June 25, 2009, 02:38 PM | #546 | |
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I think you may be suffering from a serious case of "Analysis Paralysis".
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June 25, 2009, 02:41 PM | #547 | |
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June 25, 2009, 02:42 PM | #548 | |
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June 25, 2009, 02:43 PM | #549 |
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Here in Florida we have it so simply. Use of deadly force is permitted to prevent grievous bodily harm to anyone and you are not required to retreat in any circumstance. Beyond that the moral call is all you. Personally, I decided many years ago not to hesitate in a potentially deadly confrontation. Hesitation is the worst possible avenue of response.
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June 25, 2009, 02:47 PM | #550 |
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Let me clarify the question a bit, see if I can take out the ambiguity some:
Your name is Ted Tactician. You live in a state with a strong Castle Doctrine. Your home is built to withstand zombie attacks, except that, for some reason, you never got the front door very well fortified. On this particular day, you are standing at the entrance to your bedroom, which you have designated the Safe Room in your house. Your wife is in the bedroom folding laundry. Your kids are in the room playing. Your "Safe Room" is essentially a bank vault that you sleep in. It has it's own filtered air supply, the door is literally a vault door and you've got food and communications equipment in there too. There is one window. It can be shielded from the inside by 2" thick steel shutters. As you are standing there talking to your wife, armed of course, you here two quick kicks on the front door. The door blasts open on the second kick. In jumps an intruder. He says "BOO! I'm here to rob you." and starts grabbing stuff. He's 50 feet away, because you have a big house. You KNOW without a doubt in your mind that you have time to get in your "safe room" and call the police. Instead you draw your (insert favorite TEOTWAWKI weapon) and put two in his chest. He falls over dead. Good Shoot or Bad Shoot?
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moral duty , morality |
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