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Old January 18, 2001, 08:23 PM   #1
Kor
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This is the latest subject to grind the gears in my twisted little head: Given an EXTREMELY CLOSE-quarters-combat situation(torso-to-torso), what would be more effective, a derringer or a <4" knife?

The situations I am contemplating run along these lines: rear-quarter gun grab/chokeout, face-to-face grappling, pinned against a wall, held by 2-3 assailants, pinned to the ground, at the bottom of a dogpile, etc. A common factor in all of these situations is a VERY limited range of motion available for your arms/hands. Of course, getting into a situation like these is an unforgivable lapse of situational awareness and tactics, for which I would DESERVE to get killed - these measures are merely so that I can survive to tell my grandchildren, "Never do anything as stupid as what I did once!" So, given these conditions, which would you choose?

If my strong hand were free enough, I would simply access my primary weapon(Glock 27) in its strong-side belt holster and deal with the matter normally - but, in a grappling/gun grab situation, I foresee my strong hand being tied up, either securing my weapon in its holster, or fighting off my opponent's hand. So, it looks like I'll have to counter-attack with my weak hand.

The thing is, an empty-handed blow requires range of motion in order to generate a respectable impact - otherwise, you're just rabbit-punching. Extreme-close-quarters distances can't be expected to allow that range of motion - indeed, by their nature LIMIT the distance your arm can move and your fist can travel to strike. Neither can I guarantee that I would be able to reach a pressure point on my assailant's body AND exert sufficient pressure to make him disengage. Fist-loads or other impact weapons are out, if I can't move my arm enough to swing respectably. So, I'm down to a small fixed blade at the belt, a folder in my weak-side pocket, or a derringer in my weak-side front trousers pocket, as I'm pretty sure that I could access these locations even if disadvantaged as described.

Because range of motion is limited, I'm limited to a short blade, whether fixed or folding - I can't draw a 6" fighting knife if I can't move my hand at least 6" so that I can clear the blade from the sheath. A folder has to be opened first, and easy though it may be with a good design, you still have a partial grip on the knife while opening it - if you wrap your fingers completely around it in a firm, solid grasp, you've blocked the blade from opening. But, with a short fixed-blade, I grasp the handle firmly to start with, yank hard, and in 4" or less of movement, the blade is out and ready for use. Likewise, I can pull a derringer out of my pocket with 4-5" of movement - or, if there's enough slack in my slacks, fire from the pocket into an assailant on top of me.

With a short blade, I can stab a couple of inches into my assailant's flank, belly or thigh, slash a bit, and generally do some constructive damage. With a derringer, though, if I jam it into the soft parts of my opponent's body as I pull the trigger, he gets the bullet AND the powder gasses - which I think would be even more effective. Pocket autos may jam after the first shot, but the derringer WILL fire both barrels from the pocket, or while in contact with my assailant's body. The same is also true of a .38 snubby, but a derringer does the same job while being even smaller and flatter(yes, you DO lose 3 shots to gain compactness!).

So, with this in mind, the gist of this long-winded post is that I chose a .38Spl derringer as a close-range backup. Now, it's your turn to shoot me down and weigh in with your own opinions.
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Old January 19, 2001, 07:33 AM   #2
Al Thompson
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That's a very specific situation and it looks like you've selected a very specific tool for the task.

Hard to argue against your choice.

I would evaluate what my actions/lifestyle to prevent this scenario from occuring. If it's not part of a job, looks like it would be best to take what ever preventative measures you can.

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Old January 19, 2001, 10:43 AM   #3
ctdonath
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Knives don't "run out".
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Old January 19, 2001, 11:58 AM   #4
Gus~
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Side question.

Where is a good place to look for Derringer's.

Been thinking of gettng one.
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Old January 19, 2001, 02:48 PM   #5
E. BeauBeaux
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Gus, if I were you I would try American Derrringer. Good quality and choice calibers. They really look good and feel good in your hand.
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Old January 19, 2001, 02:52 PM   #6
9mmepiphany
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kor - fastest, limited space, knife draw i have ever seen was from a shoulder rig.

7.5" fighter rides on strong side point up w/leading edge forward. sheath is clam shell type w/spring holding leading edge closed. to draw, reach inside sport coat w/strong hand, grasp handle and push forward through covering garment. blade comes out and opens bg, if face to face, on the downstroke (would also slash bg's forearm in an armbar chokehold). added bonus...balances well with 6" python on other side of the rig.

2nd fastest was a 5.5" tanto worn strong side IWB. opens bg on upstroke or drains leg of bg behind you.

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Old January 19, 2001, 05:28 PM   #7
fmjcafe
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A small fixed blade in a neck rig may be a good choice in your scenario.It is accessable to either hand.One problem I can see with the derringer in a grappling situation is that you have to draw the weapon,cock it and fire it with your weak hand.You might be as much a danger to yourself as to your assailants.JMHO.
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Old January 20, 2001, 10:41 AM   #8
Joe Demko
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If the derringer is one of the double-action type such as Hi-Standard used to make, I'd be a lot more confident in choosing it. Drawing and cocking, especially weak-handed, one of the many SA types while grappling sounds like too many variables. I'll go with a knife.
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Old January 20, 2001, 12:21 PM   #9
Kor
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As it happens, the derringer I chose is, in fact, an American Derringer DA38, which has a double-action mechanism - thus, little to no operational adjustment from my preferred S&W 642. It also has thinner grip panels than any of the other ADC or Bond Arms derringers that I have seen - thus, better concealment and faster draw from the front pocket. Good points, all - thanks for chipping in!
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Old January 22, 2001, 11:37 AM   #10
Gus~
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Any web sites that carry the American or any other Derringer's. ?
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Old January 22, 2001, 06:50 PM   #11
Karsten
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I would look into getting a Llama Mini Max subcompact in 45 acp. Heavy, qood quality pint size gun that hold 10 .45 acp.
Derrengers hold two, what do you do about the 3rd guy or a non fatal shot? I know I like them , have 3 of them. I also can tell you where to get them and the idea tactical holster.
just my feelings, am a new guy here.

Karsten
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Old January 22, 2001, 08:54 PM   #12
Ned Roundtree
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Bring a pistol to a knife fight,
bring a shotgun to a pistol fight.
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Old January 22, 2001, 09:56 PM   #13
handgun357
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packing

Why don't you bring both?
I always have a knife and if I'm going anywhere questionable I take a piece too.
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Old January 23, 2001, 12:51 AM   #14
Karsten
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There isn't a day I don't leave my house with a 45.

[Edited by Karsten on 01-25-2001 at 03:08 AM]
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