Crimping .454 Casull

markr · February 19, 2012, 10:25 PM

Question....

I am crimping/seating in one operation with RCBS dies. Everything seems to go bang the way it should, and I don't think I am getting crimp creep. When I seat/crimp, I get a little sliver of brass shaved off the case mouth on some of the rounds. Should I back off the crimp a little, leave it alone, or what.?

TXGunNut · February 19, 2012, 10:34 PM

Hard to say, can you post pics?

markr · February 19, 2012, 10:41 PM

I could, but there isn't really anything I can capture in a picture. After I seat/crimp and lower the press handle, and take the bullet out, there is a very fine half circle sliver of brass around the case mouth that I just brush away.

TXGunNut · February 19, 2012, 10:54 PM

Maybe I'll see something that will help, maybe not. Picture may not be worth a thousand words but it would be more accurate than what we have to go on now.

Zach W. · February 20, 2012, 12:48 AM

I crimp in a seperate step for my 454.

The casull requires such a heavy crimp, you will still be pushing the bullet down quite a bit as it starts to crimp and will shave copper off the bullet.

IMO a redding taper crimp die after seating makes beautiful consistant crimps.

black mamba · February 20, 2012, 12:47 PM

OR . . . you can crimp with your RCBS die, but in a separate step. Back the die body off so it doesn't crimp when you seat bullets, then back off the seating stem so the bullet doesn't get pushed further in when you screw the die body back in for crimping.

markr · February 20, 2012, 05:06 PM

A couple things.....

1)The shavings are so fine, I don't think they will be visible in a picture.

2)It occured to me, and as mentioned previously, that I may actually be shaving the bullet jacket when I lean into the. press.

3) It doesnt bother me or affect performance.

4) I don't have a lot of time, so crimping and seating in one step is prefered.

5) In Summary, I was just wondering if I should worry about it.

Goatwhiskers · February 20, 2012, 05:42 PM

How much crimp are you using? The statement about "leaning into the press" bothers me. I've never had a problem crimping without straining--brass is soft. Goat

markr · February 20, 2012, 06:04 PM

"Leaning into" may be an overstatement. In trying to devlop a consistant stroke that seats and crimps properly, I may have exerted more pressure on a few. Since all of my loads don't exhibit shaving I was thinking maybe the ones I put more pressure on where the ons doing that.

Zach W. · February 20, 2012, 11:24 PM

If they all don't have the same results at the bench, they will have the same results at the target.

Lost Sheep · February 21, 2012, 01:30 AM

I think ZackW hit the nail on the head, particularly in his paragraph 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markr

Since all of my loads don't exhibit shaving I was thinking maybe the ones I put more pressure on where the ons doing that.

That statement makes me think not all your cases are the same length. The long ones will crimp earlier than you intend and shave bullet jacket material from the lower edge of the crimping groove (if you have one) as the bullet is seating in the too-long case.

Just my guess.

Solution: Make all your brass the same length with a trimmer or a lot of case-mouth chamfering.

Alternate solution: Measure all your cases and group your cases into short, medium, long and longest, then adjust your seat/crimp die for each group. Load one group, then adjust your dies for the next group, and the next.

Lost Sheep

markr · February 21, 2012, 07:22 AM

I trimmed, chamfered and de-burred, and re-measured all the cases, so I don't know if that is what is up.

totaldla · February 21, 2012, 11:24 AM

Save yourself the grief and give the Lee FCD a try. It is not sensitive to trim length.

markr · February 21, 2012, 04:32 PM

What kind of crimp does the Lee FCD do? Does it roll crimp the case neck into the cannelure? I have a FCD in 30-06 and it just puts uniform neck tension on the case. So I am curious what the crimp looks like on the 454case with the FCD? Thanks.

Super Sneaky Steve · February 21, 2012, 05:25 PM

I'm not sure if this helps, but my hornady dies usually shave off a little ring of brass even with light crimps when I use my combination dies.

I don't load .454 but it does this with .45 Colt and .357 Magnum.

markr · February 21, 2012, 06:00 PM

Yeah, that does help. Thanks! The point of my thread was "Do the shavings matter?". They don't bother me, and the bullets go bang. I just wasn't sure If I should worry about it. I know a lot of people recomend crimping in a seperate step. I don't have a lot of time, and I like that the die is set up once and ready to go, rather than fiddling with the die and adding another step.

Lost Sheep · February 21, 2012, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markr

What kind of crimp does the Lee FCD do? Does it roll crimp the case neck into the cannelure? I have a FCD in 30-06 and it just puts uniform neck tension on the case. So I am curious what the crimp looks like on the 454case with the FCD? Thanks.

Unless you specifically ask for something different it will be a roll crimp.

The Casull is primarily a revolver round (some single shot and lever actions have been chambered for it, but it is primarily for revolvers). Roll crimp is appropriate because the headspacing is on the rim. No case mouth exposure for headspacing is needed.

All Lee crimp dies (the combo Seat/Crimp and the FCD) provide the crimp you normally would expect on the cartridge the dies are for (unless you specify something different). Taper crimp on straight-walled semi-auto cases and roll crimp on rimmed straight-walled cases. For bottlenecked cases, I am not sure, because I primarily shoot handguns.

Of course, you CAN apply what amounts to a taper crimp with a roll-crimp die simply by carefully adjusting the die body very precisely. But you will be hard pressed to apply a roll crimp with a taper crimp die.

I hope that helps.

Lost Sheep

Hunt3006 · September 6, 2014, 12:55 AM

Markr, I had the same problem with that little ring of brass coming off the case in 30-06 45LC and 454 casull. I noticed it before crimping the handgun cartridges and i don't crimp 30-06. It is from the case trimming. I solved this with a Lyman Case Prep Multi Tool: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/135...ProductFinding
It was occurring when using the rcbs case trimming tool (that little hand-turned lathe with green base), but I don't recall it when using that hand-held Lee tool. It's a strange problem hard to explain. I think it might occur because of a metal problem at the edge of the case after it is trimmed. That part of the metal takes a lot of heat.

Mike / Tx · September 7, 2014, 06:32 AM

What you are seeing is normal especially when you trim your cases. They seem to retain a small sliver which after you trim and chamfer is simply siting there waiting to break off. I have seen it hundreds of times through the years, with many different calibers of both rifle and handguns.

For your crimps, I usually will work into them to find what is working best with the powder and or bullets. If using something like 110/296 it might be a bit tighter than if using something like AA-7 or 9, depending on the caliber and bullet weight.

I try my loads at the range with a small press and my seating die installed. I start out with a crimp I feel is sufficient, and then load up all of the chambers of the cylinder, and shoot all but the last round. I measure the last round after each shot and if it has grown in length, I adjust he crimp down a little and repeat until it holds through at least two full rounds of testing. Then I switch everything up and repeat to make sure it is holding on a new round. Might sound like a lot of trouble, but to me it's worth it. I have found through the years that the crimp can and does influence the accuracy of a given load.

Just a simple lightening of crimp resulted in these two groups being different,

This load shoots them all into one small cluster like the three are on the right. These were both shot offhand at 40yds, 41 magnum 200gr Remington SJHP 20.5grs of 296. The groups on the left were with a crimp that was simply too much not being a good thing, and as a result my friend called me telling me I was nuts about that particular load shooting into a nice tight cluster.

Here is a post on another forum where there are pics of crimps and about what they should look like, Revolver Loading Help

Also you might be interested in reading up a little more on proper crimps in the following couple of PDF's,
Elmer_Keith_Part_1_Sixgun_Reloading January 1982

Elmer_Keith_Part_2_Sixgun_Reloading February 1982

The man himself explains his reasons and techniques to wring out the accuracy from a load.

Even with the 454 I only use enough to hold the bullets in place. In the link above showing the different crimps you can see how my 454's are set up under the post by 41mag. I am loading the Lee 452300RF over enough 296 or AA-9 to get me in the 1550fps ballpark. It might not be the top end load, but it is accurate enough as shown in my pics, for hog hunting to ranges further than I like to admit. It also hits them like a Mack truck.

Hope this helps.

February 19, 2012, 10:25 PM	#1
markr Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: Arsenal of Democracy Posts: 405	Crimping .454 Casull Question.... I am crimping/seating in one operation with RCBS dies. Everything seems to go bang the way it should, and I don't think I am getting crimp creep. When I seat/crimp, I get a little sliver of brass shaved off the case mouth on some of the rounds. Should I back off the crimp a little, leave it alone, or what.? __________________ I like to make beer, bullets, and jerky.....but not at the same time. Washed up 11B1P

February 19, 2012, 10:34 PM	#2
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Hard to say, can you post pics? __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

February 19, 2012, 10:41 PM	#3
markr Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: Arsenal of Democracy Posts: 405	I could, but there isn't really anything I can capture in a picture. After I seat/crimp and lower the press handle, and take the bullet out, there is a very fine half circle sliver of brass around the case mouth that I just brush away. __________________ I like to make beer, bullets, and jerky.....but not at the same time. Washed up 11B1P

February 19, 2012, 10:54 PM	#4
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Maybe I'll see something that will help, maybe not. Picture may not be worth a thousand words but it would be more accurate than what we have to go on now. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

February 20, 2012, 05:06 PM	#7
markr Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: Arsenal of Democracy Posts: 405	A couple things..... 1)The shavings are so fine, I don't think they will be visible in a picture. 2)It occured to me, and as mentioned previously, that I may actually be shaving the bullet jacket when I lean into the. press. 3) It doesnt bother me or affect performance. 4) I don't have a lot of time, so crimping and seating in one step is prefered. 5) In Summary, I was just wondering if I should worry about it. __________________ I like to make beer, bullets, and jerky.....but not at the same time. Washed up 11B1P Last edited by markr; February 20, 2012 at 05:12 PM.

February 20, 2012, 12:48 AM	#5
Zach W. Member Join Date: March 4, 2010 Posts: 72	I crimp in a seperate step for my 454. The casull requires such a heavy crimp, you will still be pushing the bullet down quite a bit as it starts to crimp and will shave copper off the bullet. IMO a redding taper crimp die after seating makes beautiful consistant crimps.

February 20, 2012, 12:47 PM	#6
black mamba Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2011 Location: SW Florida Posts: 890	OR . . . you can crimp with your RCBS die, but in a separate step. Back the die body off so it doesn't crimp when you seat bullets, then back off the seating stem so the bullet doesn't get pushed further in when you screw the die body back in for crimping.

February 20, 2012, 05:42 PM	#8
Goatwhiskers Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2009 Location: Batchelor, La. Posts: 579	How much crimp are you using? The statement about "leaning into the press" bothers me. I've never had a problem crimping without straining--brass is soft. Goat

February 20, 2012, 06:04 PM	#9
markr Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: Arsenal of Democracy Posts: 405	"Leaning into" may be an overstatement. In trying to devlop a consistant stroke that seats and crimps properly, I may have exerted more pressure on a few. Since all of my loads don't exhibit shaving I was thinking maybe the ones I put more pressure on where the ons doing that. __________________ I like to make beer, bullets, and jerky.....but not at the same time. Washed up 11B1P

February 20, 2012, 11:24 PM	#10
Zach W. Member Join Date: March 4, 2010 Posts: 72	If they all don't have the same results at the bench, they will have the same results at the target.

February 21, 2012, 07:22 AM	#12
markr Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: Arsenal of Democracy Posts: 405	I trimmed, chamfered and de-burred, and re-measured all the cases, so I don't know if that is what is up. __________________ I like to make beer, bullets, and jerky.....but not at the same time. Washed up 11B1P

February 21, 2012, 11:24 AM	#13
totaldla Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2009 Location: SW Idaho Posts: 1,291	Save yourself the grief and give the Lee FCD a try. It is not sensitive to trim length. __________________ Lee Auto Bench Prime Castor Oil Case Lube

February 21, 2012, 04:32 PM	#14
markr Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: Arsenal of Democracy Posts: 405	What kind of crimp does the Lee FCD do? Does it roll crimp the case neck into the cannelure? I have a FCD in 30-06 and it just puts uniform neck tension on the case. So I am curious what the crimp looks like on the 454case with the FCD? Thanks. __________________ I like to make beer, bullets, and jerky.....but not at the same time. Washed up 11B1P

February 21, 2012, 05:25 PM	#15
Super Sneaky Steve Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2011 Posts: 1,250	I'm not sure if this helps, but my hornady dies usually shave off a little ring of brass even with light crimps when I use my combination dies. I don't load .454 but it does this with .45 Colt and .357 Magnum.

February 21, 2012, 06:00 PM	#16
markr Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: Arsenal of Democracy Posts: 405	Yeah, that does help. Thanks! The point of my thread was "Do the shavings matter?". They don't bother me, and the bullets go bang. I just wasn't sure If I should worry about it. I know a lot of people recomend crimping in a seperate step. I don't have a lot of time, and I like that the die is set up once and ready to go, rather than fiddling with the die and adding another step. __________________ I like to make beer, bullets, and jerky.....but not at the same time. Washed up 11B1P

September 6, 2014, 12:55 AM	#18
Hunt3006 Junior Member Join Date: September 5, 2014 Posts: 9	case ring Markr, I had the same problem with that little ring of brass coming off the case in 30-06 45LC and 454 casull. I noticed it before crimping the handgun cartridges and i don't crimp 30-06. It is from the case trimming. I solved this with a Lyman Case Prep Multi Tool: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/135...ProductFinding It was occurring when using the rcbs case trimming tool (that little hand-turned lathe with green base), but I don't recall it when using that hand-held Lee tool. It's a strange problem hard to explain. I think it might occur because of a metal problem at the edge of the case after it is trimmed. That part of the metal takes a lot of heat.