new wildcat... thinking of names...

Magnum Wheel Man · February 13, 2012, 11:06 AM

my retired builder buddy just finished my .416 Rigby ( shot it the 1st time yesterday )

so on to my next project... we are looking at swaging 5.7 X 28 cases down to the rough equivelent of the 5.7 Velo-dog case... my buddy has come up with a 4 or 5 die process, after the 5.7 X 28 cases are fully annealed... because I'm converting a 22 Mag revolver to centerfire, I can load these to higher pressures than the Velo-dog, so we are making the diameter of the case a couple .001's thicker, to keep the new case from slipping into my antique Velo-dog revolver...

so... what I'll end up with, is a reloadable 22 mag, in which I can select which bullets the cartridge is loaded with... thinking cast 22 bullets & Trailboss for low end, & Hornet bullets or light .224 rifle bullets for high end...

anyone done anything similar ???

got any suggestions for the Wildcat name ???

Jim243 · February 13, 2012, 11:50 AM

Quote:

anyone done anything similar ???

No, but it is an interesting idea. I know Five-seven handguns are expensive, but wouldn't your performance be better just using 5.7x28 and adjusting your 22mag revolver to that cartrage? How are you overcoming the fact that the 5.7 is a rimless cartrage and the revolver takes rimmed 22 mag rounds??

Jim

old roper · February 13, 2012, 12:34 PM

I read this while back.

9mm 115gr 1250fps 399 ft lbs
5.7mm 31gr 2346fps 379 ft lbs
.22 mag 33gr 2000fps 293 ft lbs

Our recent tests also show that mass is more important than energy calculated in this manner. Considering this, a 31gr projectile is an abysmal performer. Tests show it does no better than the slightly slower .22 mag in killing even small game.

and this

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...m-vs-5-7x28mm/

Magnum Wheel Man · February 13, 2012, 12:45 PM

Quote:

but wouldn't your performance be better just using 5.7x28 and adjusting your 22mag revolver to that cartrage?

that would be nice, but the bottle necked cartridge would set back & lock up the cylinder...

Quote:

How are you overcoming the fact that the 5.7 is a rimless cartrage and the revolver takes rimmed 22 mag rounds??

The case body & case head will be swaged down to roughly 22 mag diameter, this will result in the original case head becoming a rim...

OLD ROPER... I like heavier bullets myself ( I've done some work with fast twist 22 Hornet, in both a revolver, & in a converted Ruger bolt action... my fast twist hornets allow the use of up to 68 grain bullets with good stabilization... I have thought of lining the barrel with something faster, allowing the use of 223 bullets, but since this is just a fun gun, I'll probably start with the 22 mag barrel at 1 in 16" twist & see what bullets will stabilize 1st... BTW... I have a 5-seven pistol, & a Contender barrel for that cartridge as well

wasn't trying to imply they were anywhere close to the same in performance... been looking at lowest power reloadable cartridges for a while now

Hammerhead · February 13, 2012, 12:51 PM

How about the 'FN dog' as in 'that effin dog!'.

Magnum Wheel Man · February 13, 2012, 12:58 PM

I like that ^^^

Magnum Wheel Man · February 13, 2012, 03:05 PM

we were hoping I'd get enough heat from a kitchen oven ( for future forming ) but the cases did not anneal enough using my machinist's tempering oven at 500 degrees... so the household kitchen oven is out...

also the laquer coating on the 5.7 X 28 cases did not burn off at 500 degrees... my buddy is going to try 900 degrees this afternoon & see if they'll get soft enough...

... also there is too much material at the case head, so it looks like at the least, the cases will need some turning in a lathe at the case head/ web area... my buddy did run a couple through a 22 Hornet die just to see how things would go, before making the 1st of the form dies... the pin used to maintain the primer pocket was sized the same as a primer, & it looks like it stretched / snapped tighter after removed from the die, enough so, that a primer would not seat in the primer pocket... so the pin will have to be a couple .001's bigger to get primer pocket of normal size...

the laquer coating looks to be highly solvent resistant... anyone that's played with the 5.7 X 28 cases come up with a chemical remover for the laquer ??? of coarse, maybe it'll burn off at 900 degrees ???

griz · February 13, 2012, 03:13 PM

22 CCM

Sevens · February 13, 2012, 03:23 PM

You definitely need to name this the .22 Rube Goldberg.

Magnum Wheel Man · February 13, 2012, 03:56 PM

GRIZ... thanks for the link... I'm a member there as well, & am familiar with the CCM ( day late & a $ short ) on getting any brass or load equipment for the CCM though

thedaddycat · February 13, 2012, 05:55 PM

I just read an article on annealing, it says you should not fully anneal the case, especially the case head. Now I'm sure you and your friend have a lot of experience since you're wildcatting a new chambering, but please consider the safety aspect of a fully annealed case when you are making your brass.

Here's the article:

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Tex S · February 14, 2012, 03:01 PM

The super select .22 whizbangpoodleshooter

dunerjeff · February 14, 2012, 04:30 PM

How about just .22Super or .22Mag Super.

thump_rrr · February 15, 2012, 09:30 AM

As already mentioned by thedaddycat.
Can anyone say case head separation?

jaguarxk120 · February 15, 2012, 10:28 AM

Take a look in P.O. Ackleys loading book there were several small 22 wildcats based off of the Hornet case.

griz · February 15, 2012, 10:46 AM

Sorry, I didn't realize that the CCM was unobtainable. Am i reading it correctly that you have already formed cases? A photo would be interesting. Have you considered starting with the hornet case? It already has a rim and I think the base of it is a not as stout, making forming easier.

Either way, good luck. I like the idea of a "reloadable 22".

griz · February 15, 2012, 10:47 AM

My timing leaves a lot to be desired

Inspector3711 · February 15, 2012, 12:35 PM

The .22 HotDawg Or .22 Doggystyle

CowTowner · February 15, 2012, 01:31 PM

How about calling it what you said it is:
"22 Relo" or a "Mag Relo"

FrankenMauser · February 15, 2012, 04:04 PM

Quote:

also the laquer coating on the 5.7 X 28 cases did not burn off at 500 degrees... my buddy is going to try 900 degrees this afternoon & see if they'll get soft enough...

I don't have much experience in metallurgy, but it is my understanding that exceeding 800 degrees F for more than about 30 seconds is going to cause irreparable damage to the brass. (Causes the zinc or copper to oxidize - can't remember which.)

On a separate note...
I have been a fan of the centerfire .22 Mag concept for a long time. For a while there, I was even trying to get my hands on some .22 CCM cases. As you probably know, that is incredibly difficult.
Which makes me wonder: Why do you want to use 5.7x28mm cases, and not .22 Hornet?

The only advantage I can think of, is that you won't have to ream the case necks as much, since the cases don't have to be trimmed as far (if at all). But... the 5.7 case doesn't save you any time during the important forming steps (swaging and lathe-turning).

Am I overlooking something, or is simply it a matter of convenience? (Such as having several hundred pieces of 5.7x28mm brass.)

I like "FN Dog".

hornetguy · February 15, 2012, 04:39 PM

Quote:

I just read an article on annealing, it says you should not fully anneal the case, especially the case head. Now I'm sure you and your friend have a lot of experience since you're wildcatting a new chambering, but please consider the safety aspect of a fully annealed case when you are making your brass.

What he said... X10

jaguarxk120 · February 15, 2012, 07:41 PM

I have some of those case's, as I recall putting them in a slow cooker for a long time, will loosen the poymer coating. It is put on the case's to aid in extraction in the automatic arms for that caliber. The stuff really wants to stick to the brass, but long soaking helps to take it off.

February 13, 2012, 11:06 AM	#1
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	new wildcat... thinking of names... my retired builder buddy just finished my .416 Rigby ( shot it the 1st time yesterday ) so on to my next project... we are looking at swaging 5.7 X 28 cases down to the rough equivelent of the 5.7 Velo-dog case... my buddy has come up with a 4 or 5 die process, after the 5.7 X 28 cases are fully annealed... because I'm converting a 22 Mag revolver to centerfire, I can load these to higher pressures than the Velo-dog, so we are making the diameter of the case a couple .001's thicker, to keep the new case from slipping into my antique Velo-dog revolver... so... what I'll end up with, is a reloadable 22 mag, in which I can select which bullets the cartridge is loaded with... thinking cast 22 bullets & Trailboss for low end, & Hornet bullets or light .224 rifle bullets for high end... anyone done anything similar ??? got any suggestions for the Wildcat name ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

February 13, 2012, 12:34 PM	#3
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	I read this while back. 9mm 115gr 1250fps 399 ft lbs 5.7mm 31gr 2346fps 379 ft lbs .22 mag 33gr 2000fps 293 ft lbs Our recent tests also show that mass is more important than energy calculated in this manner. Considering this, a 31gr projectile is an abysmal performer. Tests show it does no better than the slightly slower .22 mag in killing even small game. and this http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...m-vs-5-7x28mm/ __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

February 13, 2012, 12:58 PM	#6
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	I like that ^^^ __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

February 13, 2012, 03:05 PM	#7
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	not as easy as we had hoped we were hoping I'd get enough heat from a kitchen oven ( for future forming ) but the cases did not anneal enough using my machinist's tempering oven at 500 degrees... so the household kitchen oven is out... also the laquer coating on the 5.7 X 28 cases did not burn off at 500 degrees... my buddy is going to try 900 degrees this afternoon & see if they'll get soft enough... ... also there is too much material at the case head, so it looks like at the least, the cases will need some turning in a lathe at the case head/ web area... my buddy did run a couple through a 22 Hornet die just to see how things would go, before making the 1st of the form dies... the pin used to maintain the primer pocket was sized the same as a primer, & it looks like it stretched / snapped tighter after removed from the die, enough so, that a primer would not seat in the primer pocket... so the pin will have to be a couple .001's bigger to get primer pocket of normal size... the laquer coating looks to be highly solvent resistant... anyone that's played with the 5.7 X 28 cases come up with a chemical remover for the laquer ??? of coarse, maybe it'll burn off at 900 degrees ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

February 13, 2012, 03:23 PM	#9
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	You definitely need to name this the .22 Rube Goldberg. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

February 13, 2012, 12:51 PM	#5
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	How about the 'FN dog' as in 'that effin dog!'.

February 13, 2012, 03:13 PM	#8
griz Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Location: Middle Peninsula, VA Posts: 1,588	22 CCM

February 13, 2012, 03:56 PM	#10
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	GRIZ... thanks for the link... I'm a member there as well, & am familiar with the CCM ( day late & a $ short ) on getting any brass or load equipment for the CCM though __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

February 13, 2012, 05:55 PM	#11
thedaddycat Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 2011 Posts: 388	I just read an article on annealing, it says you should not fully anneal the case, especially the case head. Now I'm sure you and your friend have a lot of experience since you're wildcatting a new chambering, but please consider the safety aspect of a fully annealed case when you are making your brass. Here's the article: http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

February 14, 2012, 03:01 PM	#12
Tex S Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: Fort Worth, TEXAS Posts: 909	The super select .22 whizbangpoodleshooter

February 14, 2012, 04:30 PM	#13
dunerjeff Senior Member Join Date: March 31, 2011 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 440	How about just .22Super or .22Mag Super. __________________ sent via telegram

February 15, 2012, 09:30 AM	#14
thump_rrr Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 2010 Posts: 403	As already mentioned by thedaddycat. Can anyone say case head separation?

February 15, 2012, 10:28 AM	#15
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,619	Take a look in P.O. Ackleys loading book there were several small 22 wildcats based off of the Hornet case.

February 15, 2012, 10:46 AM	#16
griz Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Location: Middle Peninsula, VA Posts: 1,588	Sorry, I didn't realize that the CCM was unobtainable. Am i reading it correctly that you have already formed cases? A photo would be interesting. Have you considered starting with the hornet case? It already has a rim and I think the base of it is a not as stout, making forming easier. Either way, good luck. I like the idea of a "reloadable 22".

February 15, 2012, 10:47 AM	#17
griz Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Location: Middle Peninsula, VA Posts: 1,588	My timing leaves a lot to be desired

February 15, 2012, 12:35 PM	#18
Inspector3711 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2008 Location: Puget Sound Washington Posts: 1,553	The .22 HotDawg Or .22 Doggystyle __________________ "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." The Dalai Llama (5/15/01, The Seattle Times) "That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." George Orwell

February 15, 2012, 01:31 PM	#19
CowTowner Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: Cowtown of course! Posts: 1,747	How about calling it what you said it is: "22 Relo" or a "Mag Relo" __________________ NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor *“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......”* President John F. Kennedy

February 15, 2012, 07:41 PM	#22
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,619	I have some of those case's, as I recall putting them in a slow cooker for a long time, will loosen the poymer coating. It is put on the case's to aid in extraction in the automatic arms for that caliber. The stuff really wants to stick to the brass, but long soaking helps to take it off.