Easing into shotgun reloading

[Marco Califo]

Call your local trap, skeet, and sporting clays ranges. You can also visit them and look in the trash cans near the firing position - seriously. Of course you would want permission.
I have not shot trap in a few years, but those trash cans would be around half full of empties.

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WINCHESTER AA-HS HULLS 12ga USED 2-3/4" 8 CRIMP *500/BOX

Item #: WU12GA
Price: $29.99
$0.06 per round
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Exclusions apply. Click for details.
Availability: In Stock
MPN: WU12GA

[nhyrum]

Originally Posted by DaleA

Probably go back and read Marco Califo post #21 again.



My father at middle age took up trap shooting and reloading and let's say he "respected a deal" rather than he was cheap. He got *lots* of hulls from the trap club and realized he had *lots* of different hulls and then hunted around and found deals on *lots* of different wads that fit (or nearly fit) all the different hulls he had collected. And then one day he simply had enough of the madness (his store room looked like the warehouse for a small gun shop) and flat out decried that there would be one hull (Winchester AA) and one wad and a MEC 650 to marry them up.

I agree with that first statement.

And as for the second bit, I was in a similar camp. I was literally given a 55 gallon garbage bag full of Remington sts and nitro hulls from my local club, which was probably about 600 hulls. I then got a smoking deal on a Pacific 366. Man that thing was sweet. But man, all those hulls, wads, shot, reloaded shells... Man they took up a TON of space! They took up the majority of the space in my small reloading room, which was probably 8x10. Throw an 8 foot bench across the 10 foot wall, and even with a good amount of shelf space... Man loading shotshells takes up space! I did breathe a bit of a sigh of relief when I had to sell it when I moved. I just couldn't load them as cheap as I could buy them either, even being given hulls, lead shot is expensive, and steel, and other not toxic shot?*joker laugh* yeah, no.

I've still got an paper box(a box that paper comes in. Not a... Paper... Box) full of loaded 12 guage... And no 12 guage...

I hated the stupid bushings. I really quick got an adjustable bar for my mec. Want to try a new load? Gotta order a pair of bushings I ended up with a fairly complete set of business for the Pacific... More clutter in the loading room

I get that today's climate is a bit different than when I got out of it. Shot is expensive. I had to search to find shot bags for under 50 bucks, and that was if you bought 2 bags.

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[Metal god]

And then one day he simply had enough of the madness (his store room looked like the warehouse for a small gun shop) and flat out decried that there would be one hull (Winchester AA) and one wad and a MEC 650 to marry them up.

That's the plan and is why I bought what I bought . The Winchester hulls I bought are plentiful here at my local range . It's what the military shoots and we rent out 3 of are 6 ranges just about every day of the week to the Navy , Coastguard and other LEO's . I have access to as much LC brass , WCC brass and those Winchester hulls I could ever want . As for the primers , the W209's are all that's available locally right now and I could go get more right now if need be . This means unless those Winchester hulls are total garbage and I can't use W209 primers in them , That's what I have to use right now . Please understand I'm not trying to be difficult or think I know better . I simply only have what I have to work with and if I can , I have access to as much of it as I could ever need right now . When I can I will buy better but I fear what I have is all I'll be able to find for now . FWIW I also don't want to buy a component that happens to be available right now only to never see it available again . Example : I refuse to use Varget even though it may be one of the best universal powders for several cartridges I load for . It may be great but it's also never in stock so I choose not to use it for that reason .

[Marco Califo]

I may be stating the obvious, but not all Winchester Hulls are WWAA. This is a particular type, compression formed I believe. It is the bulk standard of shooting sports. Any 6 point crimp are not WWAA. Having Winchester stamped on the brass does not make them WWAA.

[Metal god]

Thanks Marco I just bought those hulls and the Lyman 5th manual . Wanted to buy wads at the same time but thought I better look through the manual first .

[Marco Califo]

http://www.alliantpowder.com/resourc...inglePages.pdf

http://www.castpics.net/LoadData/Freebies/default.html

[Metal god]

Here's another view of the hulls I have and I likely have an endless supply of , they have 6 crimp lines/panels in them

[peterg7]

Yeah but are they one or two piece? That’s what matters.

I reload off hodgon’s online data with a Lee loadall II, I don’t need to change bushing to go between loads with the HS6.

Buck is dropped by hand and bird shot by hopper.


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[Metal god]

eah but are they one or two piece? That’s what matters.

If that was directed at me I don’t know what that means or how to look for it

[Marco Califo]

Metal God. That pretty much sums that post.
Stick with WWAA like you ordered. Your green hulls are not refillable. Some hulls have tube and a basewad. The good ones are one piece of plastic compression formed unibody that are designed to be reloaded.
Sticking with WWAA will simplify you 12g reloading world. Later on, if you like it, you will find certain other brands (I am think of the blue RP hulls I had 20 years ago, or 30) are close to the exact same thing.
Promo, bulk market 6 point hulls are not worth picking out of trash..

[SHR970]

There's nothing wrong with Reifenhauser hulls; they are actually preferable to tapered hulls for large shot like buckshot. When it comes to loading buck the folks at BPI will tell you this every time. They may not last for as many reloadings as a standard AA but they reload just fine. Since MG has pretty much an unlimited supply of these and he wants to load buckshot he has the right hulls for the job.

Federal Hulls are Reifenhauser type, so are Fiocchi, PMC, Cheddite, and most Euro hulls.

Now for trap loads, AA's and their Rem. equivelents are better as they require less powder and work better with the faster powders. If he wants to go to especially light loads they are certainly the best.

[peterg7]

Originally Posted by Metal god

If that was directed at me I don’t know what that means or how to look for it

Yeah the hull dictates the correct reloading data to use.

So it’s prudent to know what hull you have.

Since you have HS6 go to hodgdon web site to use the data program.

I use a lee scale to find the bushing that throws the correct weight of HS6 (32grains) and that’ll cover all three loads I use.


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[Average Joe]

Don't buy hulls, go to a local trap/skeet range and you will find thousands on the ground and in the trash for free. Then decide what which ones you want to reload, the most common are Remington Gun Clubs. GO from there.

[Grant 14]

On the question of primers? I just went to Midway website, BPI and Graf &Sons. I looked at all of the primers listed and between the three companies there were 118 types/brands of primers and all but 4 were out of stock. This is what new and old reloaders have to deal with. This is why I bought the only brick of 209 primers that my local hardware store had. This was before I learned (in this thread) that there are considerable size differences between different brands and that limits what hulls I can buy. That is added to the problem of most hulls being out of stock. I just got a new catalog today, so I will see what Natches Supply has. Lots of searching. Grant.

[big al hunter]

There is nothing wrong with the Winchester hulls you already have. You can get 4-8 loading out of those depending on how hot you make them. Yes, there are different levels of shotgun loads. Load 'em mild and you might see 8-10 reloads. They are not the AA hulls. Those are smooth on the outside. Use proper data for the other style Win hulls and have fun.

[Metal god]

There is nothing wrong with the Winchester hulls you already have.

Great , how different are they to the ones I bought (WINCHESTER AA-HS HULLS 12ga USED 2-3/4" 8 CRIMP *500/BOX) Can they be loaded as if they were both the same hulls ?

There is something I feel I should add to this conversation . I have 2 shotguns and in 10 years I've shot at the most 150rds total from them . I'm not a shot gun guy , I'm heavily into precision rifle reloading and shooting although I've not shot as much as I'd like lately . My main shooting buddy is a handgun guy and that's what I shoot most as of late which is ok but I'm not a handgun guy either . I have them and shoot them but there is very little excitement doing so .

I'm only doing this to have ammo if needed , when needed and not to go shoot shotgun every weekend . My guess is at least for the near future the most I'll load any one hull is twice seeing how I'll have close to 1k of them here shortly . I can't imagine I'll shoot 2k rounds any time soon . Meaning how many times I can load each hull at least for now is less important and if I could get 4 loadings out of any of them that would be enough to maybe last a life time haha .

I've been looking at the Hodgdon data and there are several loads using HS-6 which makes me happy , also see Titegroup is available for 12ga . Those are the 2 powders I have the most of . I notice the data only has 00 buck and #4 . Why is there no triple 0 or # 1, 2, or 3 data ? Logic would seem to be if the same components can be used in 00 and #4 you'd likely be able to use those same components with everything in between ???

I would like this debate worked out

Stick with WWAA like you ordered. Your green hulls are not refillable.

VS

There is nothing wrong with the Winchester hulls you already have.

Since MG has pretty much an unlimited supply of these and he wants to load buckshot he has the right hulls for the job

[cdoc42]

Metal god, I have loaded 20-16-and 12 GA shells but haven’t done so since I lost my Shorthair in 2005. I recently had a resurgence of interest because of sporting clays and I am back in action, but looking for more modern information. Maybe this will help you.

I have a Lyman 2nd Edition shotshell handbook that shows drawings of various hulls sectioned in half to demonstrate the internal wad construction. That was a valuable lesson to show me why one cannot simply use any hull you have available.

The very common red Winchester AA hull has probably not changed and is described as “Compression formed plastic.” It is virtually identical, and I have used these interchangeably, with Remington “RXP” plastic target hulls. They are typically green, but blue ones are “Peters” hulls, and I have those that are black ribbed, when hack-sawed about 1/2-inch above the outside brass portion, appear to be the same and I have used them without any problem.
The black cases differ externally. Both are ribbed, but one has a “silver” outside base labeled “Remington 12 GA” while the other is brass and labeled “Remington-Peters 12 GA.”
The common smooth red Winchester AA cases are stamped, “Winchester AA.” There is also a “silver” outside base, red, ribbed case stamped “Winchester 12 GA” – which has a plastic base wad inside rather than the AA compression formed plastic – but still looks like the AA, and allows the use of the same wad.

I loaded each of these with 19.5gr of Green Dot, a CB 1118-12 wad (Clay Buster generic white AA wad), 1-1/8oz of #8 and Fed 209A primers and fired them off with no issues. I have also loaded the same hulls as described with Remington *97 (209), Winchester 209 and CCI 209 primers. From the load data that I reviewed, all should provide 1200 fps but the pressures in psi differ. Just don’t use magnum primers like CCI 209M unless the recipe calls for magnum primers.

As you review various possible loads, just pay attention to the pressure generated. I looked up the SAAMI maximum pressure for 12 GA and it is 11,500 psi. My 5 loads above have different pressures, but none are near 11,500 psi., according to the load data I reviewed.

Regarding outside “High Brass”or “Low Brass” shells, that is a marketing concept, suggesting High Brass is more powerful. According to Lyman, 2nd Edition:
“High or Low outside brass is no indication of volume, strength or loading potential. Often, a trap, or field load, which has low outside brass will actually use a higher inner base wad to reduce volume and better accommodate its lighter charge.” (but the wad you use for the lead will be smaller as well).

The 2nd edition Lyman lists a LOT of loads, but here is one for 1-1/4-oz of shot, which I would imagine what you’d need if you’re using 00 shot. It considered a “heavy field load.”
Win AA compression formed hull; Unique 24.0gr; Win 209 primer; Win AA12R wad; 1245fps – 9820 LUP
LUP=Lead units of pressure, so cannot be equated to psi.
The Alliant 7-96 issue lists NINE loads with 5 different primers and wads for a 1-1/4oz load in a Win AA hull, using Unique powder. The velocity is 1220 fps but the pressures range from 9500psi to 10,700psi
with charges that vary from 22.5gr to 24.0gr of powder. The difference is due to the type of wad used!
So, pick a hull and primer, then a recipe from any source (Hogdon Reloading site is a good start); wads from Clay Busters can be matched to work with those you may need in the recipe. You will probably have to bite the bullet on powder unless you can find a recipe that uses what you have on hand. Common powders I’ve seen are Red Dot, Green Dot, Blue Dot, Unique, 70-X, 800-X, Herco, Clays, International, Universal, Titegroup, HS-6 and Longshot, just to name a few.

[cdoc42]

Speaking of cost: at least for target or birds/rabbits. Cabela's in my area has been selling Herter's shells in 1-oz and 1-1/8-oz, either #7.5 or#8, for $59.99 a case (10 boxes), plus tax= $63 and change.

I have enough empty hulls, and I was able to get 25-lb of #8 shot for $36. All in all, since I have the equipment, I can reload a case of 1-oz loads for $57.00. It's getting pretty close to how much is my time worth?

[big al hunter]

I would like this debate worked out

Not really what I would call a debate. Each is better for certain things.

The AA hulls are built for multiple loadings and perform very well with bird shot. They have a tapered hull. The plastic side is thicker near the head and thins out as it reaches the mouth. You will find many sources of load data for them because they are so popular. Their only downfall is in loading buck shot. #4 buck fits just fine. But if you load 00 they stack in rows that are sets of 3 pellets each layer. In a tapered hull the bottom 3 pellets don't quite fit right. The straight hull design of the other Winchester and many other manufacturer of hulls work quite well for 00 buck. The rows stack neatly and give good patterns. You might get an extra loading or 2 from AA hulls, but that is not the only thing to consider. I have, and load both types of hulls. When you get the AA hulls cut one down the middle so you can see the taper. Do the same with one of your other shells that you already have. It will give you a better understanding of the case and how they are assembled.

As to hulls not being reloadable....if it was loaded once I can load it at least a couple more times. Just need data. Check out Mannyca on youtube and his "How many times can I load _______shotgun shells. https://youtu.be/tUdujvONPow
This one is Winchester universal shells. He did a bunch of them with different brands, including AA hulls.

[big al hunter]

. . I notice the data only has 00 buck and #4 . Why is there no triple 0 or # 1, 2, or 3 data ? Logic would seem to be if the same components can be used in 00 and #4 you'd likely be able to use those same components with everything in between ???

There is data for larger shot in specialty data manuals. Ballistic Products has a buckshot manual with a plethora of data for all sizes. Most of the locally available shot is 00 or #4 buck. So that is what sells the most and is easiest to load. When you get into larger shot it stacks in rows of 2 pellets per row and can be difficult to get good patterns with standard wads. Specialty wads help, but are not available at local stores. You might find the specialty wads and shot cards at your local store, but only if loading buckshot is fairly common in your area. The in between sizes don't fit well in even rows for 12 gauge. But they might in 16 or 20. Watch some YouTube videos from Bubba Roundtree Outdoors. Search buckshot loading. He is in South Carolina, where shotguns are the weapon of choice for deer hunting with dogs. He explains and shows many different loads and sizes of buckshot.

[nhyrum]

I got the ballistics products manual when I started loading. I read the entirety of the actual manual part before I looked at the data. I could then search through, picking really any one, or combination of, component (s) and find a few different loads. I was then able to start compiling a list of possible loads I wanted, then narrow it down to a list with a few different components as possible.

I've still got the book, and no use for it, should you desire it.

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[Nathan]

First, understand that with shotgun you are as likely to get too little pressure as you are to have too much pressure. The key is following a recipe and doing so consistently.

You have to decide if you want to go down the ballistic products route, you will make fine loads and they sell each component.

The other popular data source is Lyman if I remember right. Find a load and then buy some once fired hulls. Rem STS are popular as are Win AA. Then build the loads as instructed. I use the Lee Load All. Works well enough. With slug or similar, you may need to weigh each charge because a bushing isn’t big enough.

Buckshot will be a little tougher. I would load some birdshot to get the hang of loading and patterning. Then try buckshot.

[FITASC]

I shoot a lot of shotgun; it is my main hobby.
You match the hulls you have to the wad you need as well as the primer. Are there acceptable substitutions? Yes, but for now stick to published recipes. You do not "work up a load" like you would for your precision rifle shooting The recipe is what it is. Most shotgun powders are also usable with handguns; lots of crossover there. Yes, there are recipes for TiteGroup, but TiteWad was developed for shotgun.
Buckshot pellets are stacked by hand in lieu of using a MEC or similar to dispense.
The Lyman manual is good; I still prefer the online data from Alliant and Hodgdon for the latest up to date data.

[Marco Califo]

No. They cannot be loaded the same with same powder dose, wads, and payload. It is like LC and Aguila: you can try and fiddle around, but why would you want to. Plentiful data exists for the WWAA, and quality components. You are learning.

When I started reloading, that was the first thing I did (load crappy hulls) and the first lesson I learned (stick with quality hulls and matching wads per published data. If you really want to experiment with those hulls, do so. I am suggesting get the known good stuff to work right, first. I suspect you will find you get better results, and then abandon your free hulls quickly when you try those after establishing a baseline of WWAA success. Look at local ranges and you may get WWAA free, too.

[cdoc42]

Re: primers: from 1988 Hercules Reloaders' Guide:

CCI 109 and CCI 209 are basically identical and can be interchanged
CCI 209M (Magnum) is "hotter" and cannot be substituted for CCI 109 or 209. Use 209M only as listed
Rem 209 is "hotter" and cannot be substituted for Rem 97* primers (**)
Rem 209P is not interchangeable with Rem 209

**My carton of Remington primers is labeled 97* (209)