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June 8, 2016, 10:01 AM | #1 |
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Legality of purchasing a firearm while on leave?
I was thinking of purchasing some hand guns next time I'm back state side for leave (I'll be coming back to AZ eventually). However, I remember reading somewhere that you must write your current residence if memory serves, and if your current place of residence is not state side, you're not legally eligible to purchase a firearm.
I can't use my parents address, since that would be lying on the form, which is a felony if I'm not mistaken if I were to be caught doing so. (Can't imagine that would be difficult for the powers that be. Just taking a look at my income and where I'd be filing my taxes would be a clear indication that my actual place of residence is clearly not in CONUS) Does anyone know if this is legal or not? I'd really rather not mess with something like this, and risk getting arrested and perhaps serving jail time for something like this. EDIT: 10 Jun I am currently stationed in Japan, and while I do file my taxes with AZ, the actual location where I am doing so is clearly outside of CONUS. My spending habits, among other things would clearly show that I am likely not residing in CONUS, let alone at my parents house. I do not own any property in the US (in terms of real estate that is), so again, I do not believe that I could legally claim that I live at my parents house. From what I've been reading, the only way I can legally purchase a firearm in the US, is for me to physically be stationed within CONUS and have a CONUS address. Kind of a bummer, but I guess that's just how it is. Last edited by Kimio; June 10, 2016 at 07:34 AM. |
June 8, 2016, 10:10 AM | #2 |
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If you have an Arizona driver's license and vote in Arizona you are an Arizona resident.
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June 8, 2016, 11:25 AM | #3 | |||
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Under federal law, for the purposes of the Gun Control Act or 1968 (GCA), "state of residence" is defined at 27 CFR 478.11 as follows (emphasis added): See also ATF Q&As:
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June 8, 2016, 11:28 AM | #4 | |||||
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ATF regs are far more liberal in how they determine a persons "state of residence" than what you need to get a DL, pay taxes or vote. ATF merely requires that the person actually reside in that state. And for members of the Armed Forces, they can also claim the state where their permanent duty station is located.
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June 8, 2016, 01:22 PM | #5 | |
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eta: he's overseas, so I don't see how the "state" of his duty station is applicable. Last edited by Armed_Chicagoan; June 8, 2016 at 01:30 PM. |
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June 8, 2016, 01:29 PM | #6 | |
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Remember, the From 4473 will ask for the buyer/transferees CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS.....which by his own admission is not in the USA. You didn't read any of the ATF material posted above did you?
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June 8, 2016, 01:33 PM | #7 |
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If the OP has a room at his parent's house, and an Arizona state ID with that as his address, and his duty station is overseas and thus in no other state then what other state would he be a resident of?
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June 8, 2016, 02:04 PM | #8 | |||
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Your problems are that you (1) don't understand how the law works; and (2) never bother to do any real research or study. As a consequence you are continually making erroneous statements about the law -- as is apparent from your posting history. You make a lot of assumptions, but you don't bother to validate those assumptions or get the facts. For example, the OP did not say anything to support your contention that (post 5),: What he did say was: And that is not the same as having a home there. He could very well have the intention of eventually returning to and settling in Arizona without currently having a home there. Posting bad information about legal matters could get someone into a lot of trouble if he was foolish enough to pay any attention to you.
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June 8, 2016, 02:19 PM | #9 | |||
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What does it mean to be a resident? It turns out that's not necessarily a simple question to answer.
It often involves questions of one's intent, but lawyers prove intent all the time using circumstantial evidence from which one's intentions are inferable. So the question of whether or not someone is a resident of a particular State can often involve examining all the facts and drawing a conclusion from those facts taken together. State laws often define the concepts of residence and domicile in fairly general terms, e. g., where one intends to make his home, or his permanent place of residence, or where he intends to return when temporarily absent, or principal place of residence, or words or phrases of similar import. But the real issue is the facts or factors which will be needed to establish the definition is satisfied. Let's by way example consider California law on residence since I have it handy. So under California Vehicle Code 12505: It can also depend on one's purpose for claiming residency or non-residency. If it's a matter of being a California resident for the purposes of being eligible for resident tuition at the University of California, see here: If the question is California residency for tax purposes, see here (pg 4):
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June 8, 2016, 02:35 PM | #10 |
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Here in Colorado they ask active duty military members for proof of residence or PCS orders to make sure they live in this state.
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June 8, 2016, 03:30 PM | #11 | |||
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1. We don't know what definition the OP is using for "residence". I think it certainly matters if he still has a room at his parent's house, and intends to move back there once out of the military. The examples given in the law don't exclude his situation, and allows for part-time residence in a state. 2. The only mention of military personnel in the law is the case where they are stationed in a state, not a case where they are stationed overseas as is the OP. 3. There's at least a good case to be made that under the plain meaning rule he is a resident of AZ for the purpose of the law cited. Otherwise you have the absurd result whereby being stationed stateside or overseas determines his right to purchase a firearm. 4. You haven't cited any case law whereby his situation renders him unable to purchase a firearm as long as he is a member of the military and stationed overseas. 5. The states are given broad authority to form their own firearms laws. The OP never said he intended to purchase a firearm only from a FFL, what federal law prohibits him from purchasing from a private party under Arizona law assuming he has a valid Arizona ID? |
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June 8, 2016, 03:45 PM | #12 |
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Ok, the entire time I was in the army... I did all my business as if I was physically located in Texas, no matter what part of the world I was stationed.
My lifelong home was in Texas, all the cars I owned during the time I was in the army were registered in the county of my home of record (except when stationed in Germany) I'm very positive that I could have bought firearms in Texas and left them at the home that I maintained in Texas. After all firearms I already owned were there. In the army you are legally a resident in the state in which you resided at the time you took your oath unless you decided to change that before you are discharged. I never once had anything other than Texas dl except in Germany, but I was still a resident of Texas for every legal purpose. I could be wrong, but I wouldn't have blinked twice about purchasing something in my home state while on leave and leaving it at my home of record.
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June 8, 2016, 03:51 PM | #13 |
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It's been a long time since I had to deal with this but seem to recall that an active duty military person has dual residents the state they are stationed in and their "Home of Record".
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June 8, 2016, 06:06 PM | #14 | ||
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Kimio does not own his parents' house. He apparently has NO residence in the United States. |
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June 8, 2016, 06:38 PM | #15 |
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Not sure why he's filing taxes inconsistent with his home of record.
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June 8, 2016, 06:44 PM | #16 | |||||||
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Have you actually read what ATF considers as "State of Residence" for the purposes of buying a firearm? Quote:
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Where you vote, pay taxes or what the military considers as your home state has nothing to do with what ATF considers as your current residence address or state of residence. Quote:
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June 8, 2016, 06:47 PM | #17 | ||||||||||||||
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"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
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June 8, 2016, 07:03 PM | #18 | ||||||
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Maybe you should read the law and regulations before posting again. While I agree the regulation is absurd.....it IS THE LAW. Quote:
What Frank and I have done is post the actual ATF regulation and the most recent Ruling on "State of Residence", whereas you are just inventing your own reality and making erroneous assumptions. Quote:
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§478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees. No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section: (a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and (b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. [T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991; 57 FR 1205, Jan. 10, 1992]
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June 8, 2016, 07:26 PM | #19 |
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I posted my experience because it's common and just to highlight where a lot of these misconceptions come from.
For 15 years I was told that as an active duty service member, that you are a legal resident of your home of record no matter what, unless you initiate the change of residence. A service member on active duty under orders is not the same as a civilian working overseas, I've done both, two totally different situations. Again, I didn't post as any legal advice, I'm a only posting as a viewpoint as it's told to service members... it's assumed the op was talking about leave from the military, but he never specified. I was under the impression that Kimio was a service member from other threads. I can only assume that he is not a resident of Arizona if he was, the question may not have come up.
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June 8, 2016, 08:09 PM | #20 |
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The easy answer is to visit your JAG office and get tier opinion. They have access to your DD214 and you can show what identification you have.
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June 8, 2016, 08:27 PM | #21 | ||
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http://www.dd214.com/dd214_faq#what Quote:
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June 8, 2016, 08:54 PM | #22 |
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I must be always buying firearms wrong. Whenever I buy a firearm: I go look at the gun, make a decision, tell the clerk I want it, clerk gives me form to fill out, I return form to clerk, clerk asks for ID, clerk asks if the address on the ID is correct, I confirm, clerk scribbles stuff on the paper, clerk says wait 15 min for the background check to complete, I browse the store or go grab lunch, I find the clerk after a reasonable amount of time, clerk finalizes the sale and usually has me verify the ser#, I pay, then most places walk me to the door hands me a firearm.
The only mention of the military on 4473 is if the person is buying where stationed, but not his permanent residence, then the buyer must list both addresses. It does not say that you cannot buy a firearm in your home state if you are in your home state. It even states that if you are buying the firearm at a weekend residence then you list the weekend address. I'm sorry but the OP should have a stateside residence for legal purposes even if stationed overseas. None of my overseas duty stations were considered a residence.
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June 8, 2016, 08:56 PM | #23 | |
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ATF regulations are clear and posted above. What identification the OP has is inconsequential to answering questions 2 and 13 on the Form 4473 truthfully.
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Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
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June 8, 2016, 09:04 PM | #24 | |
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But here's how the world works. If the question is about whether something is legal or how to do something legally, the answer is not a story about how you've done things. If the question is about whether something is legal or how to do something legally, the only sort of answer worth anything requires properly citing the applicable statutes, regulations, case law. The fact that you might have been doing illegal things all your life but haven't been caught [yet] doesn't make what you've been doing legal.
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June 8, 2016, 09:05 PM | #25 | |||||
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As long as you answer the questions correctly and truthfully you have not violated any law. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question. Quote:
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For the purposes of acquiring a firearm under Federal law there is NO SUCH THING as a "home state"......and never has been. Quote:
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Need a FFL in Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me. $20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers) Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE |
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