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Old June 8, 2016, 10:01 AM   #1
Kimio
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Legality of purchasing a firearm while on leave?

I was thinking of purchasing some hand guns next time I'm back state side for leave (I'll be coming back to AZ eventually). However, I remember reading somewhere that you must write your current residence if memory serves, and if your current place of residence is not state side, you're not legally eligible to purchase a firearm.

I can't use my parents address, since that would be lying on the form, which is a felony if I'm not mistaken if I were to be caught doing so. (Can't imagine that would be difficult for the powers that be. Just taking a look at my income and where I'd be filing my taxes would be a clear indication that my actual place of residence is clearly not in CONUS)

Does anyone know if this is legal or not? I'd really rather not mess with something like this, and risk getting arrested and perhaps serving jail time for something like this.

EDIT: 10 Jun

I am currently stationed in Japan, and while I do file my taxes with AZ, the actual location where I am doing so is clearly outside of CONUS. My spending habits, among other things would clearly show that I am likely not residing in CONUS, let alone at my parents house.

I do not own any property in the US (in terms of real estate that is), so again, I do not believe that I could legally claim that I live at my parents house.

From what I've been reading, the only way I can legally purchase a firearm in the US, is for me to physically be stationed within CONUS and have a CONUS address.

Kind of a bummer, but I guess that's just how it is.

Last edited by Kimio; June 10, 2016 at 07:34 AM.
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Old June 8, 2016, 10:10 AM   #2
Armed_Chicagoan
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If you have an Arizona driver's license and vote in Arizona you are an Arizona resident.
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Old June 8, 2016, 11:25 AM   #3
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
If you have an Arizona driver's license and vote in Arizona you are an Arizona resident.
Cite some legal authority for that claim. You're wrong.

Under federal law, for the purposes of the Gun Control Act or 1968 (GCA), "state of residence" is defined at 27 CFR 478.11 as follows (emphasis added):
Quote:
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b). The following are examples that illustrate this definition:
Example 1.

A maintains a home in State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting, fishing, business, or other type of trip. A does not become a resident of State Y by reason of such trip.

Example 2.

A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.

Example 3.

A, an alien, travels to the United States on a three-week vacation to State X. A does not have a state of residence in State X because A does not have the intention of making a home in State X while on vacation. This is true regardless of the length of the vacation.

Example 4.

A, an alien, travels to the United States to work for three years in State X. A rents a home in State X, moves his personal possessions into the home, and his family resides with him in the home. A intends to reside in State X during the 3-year period of his employment. A is a resident of State X.
See also ATF Q&As:
Quote:
What constitutes residency in a State?

For Gun Control Act (GCA) purposes, a person is a resident of a State in which he or she is present with the intention of making a home in that State. The State of residence for a corporation or other business entity is the State where it maintains a place of business. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her or her permanent duty station is located. If a member of the Armed Forces maintains a home in one State and the member’s permanent duty station is in a nearby State to which he or she or she commutes each day, then the member has two States of residence and may purchase a firearm in either the State where the duty station is located or the State where the home is maintained.
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Old June 8, 2016, 11:28 AM   #4
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Kimio I was thinking of purchasing some hand guns next time I'm back state side for leave (I'll be coming back to AZ eventually). However, I remember reading somewhere that you must write your current residence if memory serves, and if your current place of residence is not state side, you're not legally eligible to purchase a firearm.
Correct. You must have a current residence address in the U.S. OR have a permanent duty station located in the US.


Quote:
I can't use my parents address, since that would be lying on the form, which is a felony if I'm not mistaken if I were to be caught doing so. (Can't imagine that would be difficult for the powers that be. Just taking a look at my income and where I'd be filing my taxes would be a clear indication that my actual place of residence is clearly not in CONUS)
Correct

Quote:
U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director Washington, DC 20226
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3): PROHIBITED TRANSPORTATION OR RECEIPT 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(5): PROHIBITED TRANSFER BY NON-LICENSEE 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(9): PROHIBITED RECEIPT BY NON-RESIDENT 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3): PROHIBITED TRANSFER BY LICENSEE 18 U.S.C. 922(t): REQUIREMENTS TO TRANSFER FIREARMS 27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS (STATE OF RESIDENCE) 27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS (IDENTIFICATION DOCUMENT) 27 CFR 478.124: FIREARMS TRANSACTION RECORD

For the purpose of acquiring firearms under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a United States citizen who temporarily resides in a foreign country, but who also demonstrates the intention of making a home in a particular State, is a resident of the State during the time period he or she actually resides in that State. The intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.

ATF Rul. 2010-6
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries seeking clarification as to whether, under Federal law, United States citizens who maintain residences in both a foreign country and a particular State may purchase firearms while in the State.
The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as amended, Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), section 922(a)(3) prohibits any person not licensed under the GCA (nonlicensees) from receiving any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside the State in which the person resides. Furthermore, section 922(a)(9) provides, in part, that it is unlawful for any unlicensed person who does not reside in any State to receive any firearm unless such receipt is for lawful sporting purposes. Pursuant to section 922(b)(3), the GCA also prohibits licensees from selling or delivering firearms to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the State in which the licensee’s place of business is located. Section 922(a)(5) extends the prohibition, with some limited exceptions, to any unlicensed person transferring a firearm to anyone who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in the transferor’s State of residence.
A person’s “State of residence” is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 478.11 as “the State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a
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State with the intention of making a home in that State.” Ownership of a home or land within a given State is not sufficient, by itself, to establish a State of residence. However, ownership of a home or land within a particular State is not required to establish presence and intent to make a home in that State. Furthermore, temporary travel, such as short-term stays, vacations, or other transient acts in a State are not sufficient to establish a State of residence because the individual demonstrates no intention of making a home in that State.
To ensure compliance with this residency requirement, section 922(t) of the GCA requires licensees to examine a valid “identification document” (as defined in 18 U.S.C. 1028(d) and 27 CFR 478.11) of a firearm transferee. This document must contain the residence address of the transferee so that the licensee may verify the identity of the transferee and discern whether the transferee has the intention of making a home in a particular State. Licensees transferring a firearm to a person not licensed under the GCA are required, pursuant to 27 CFR 478.124, to record the firearm transaction on an ATF Form 4473, which requires, among other things, the transferee’s residence address, including the transferee’s State of residence as it appears on the valid identification document.
The term “identification document” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 1028(d)(3) as “a document made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” The regulations, 27 CFR 478.11, define the term “identification document” as “[a] document containing the name, residence address, date of birth, and photograph of the holder and which was made or issued by or under the authority of the United States Government, a State, political subdivision of a State . . . which, when completed with information concerning a particular individual, is of a type intended or commonly accepted for the purpose of identification of individuals.” Identification documents include, but are not limited to, a driver’s license, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration. As explained in ATF Ruling 2001-5 (ATFQB 2001-4, 37), a combination of valid government documents may be used to satisfy the GCA’s State residency requirement.
ATF has previously addressed the eligibility of individuals to acquire firearms who maintain residences in more than one State. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.11 (definition of State of Residence), Example 2, clarify that a U.S. citizen with homes in two States may, during the period of time the person actually resides in a particular State, purchase a firearm in that State. See also ATF Publication 5300.4 (2005), Question and Answer B12, page 179. Similarly, in ATF Ruling 80-21 (ATFB 1980-4, 25), ATF held that, during the time college students actually reside in a college dormitory or at an offcampus location, they are considered residents of the State where the on-campus or offcampus housing is located.
The same reasoning applies to citizens of the United States who reside temporarily outside of the country for extended periods of time, but who also maintain residency in a particular State. Where a citizen temporarily resides outside of the country, but also has the intention of making a home in a particular State, the citizen is a resident of the State during the time he or she actually resides in that State. In acquiring a firearm, the individual must
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demonstrate to the transferor-licensee that he or she is a resident of the State by presenting valid identification documents.
Held, for the purpose of acquiring firearms under the Gun Control Act of 1968, a United States citizen who temporarily resides in a foreign country, but who also demonstrates the intention of making a home in a particular State, is a resident of the State during the time period he or she actually resides in that State.
Held further, the intention of making a home in a State must be demonstrated to a Federal firearms licensee by presenting valid identification documents. Such documents include, but are not limited to, driver’s licenses, voter registration, tax records, or vehicle registration.
Date approved: November 10, 2010
Kenneth E. Melson Deputy Director
Quote:
Does anyone know if this is legal or not?
Unfortunately, if you do not have a current residence address in the continental US or one of its territories you cannot acquire a firearm.


Quote:
Armed_Chicagoan If you have an Arizona driver's license and vote in Arizona you are an Arizona resident.
100% wrong. Simply possessing a drivers license does not make someone a resident of any particular state and neither does your state of residence for the purpose of voting.

ATF regs are far more liberal in how they determine a persons "state of residence" than what you need to get a DL, pay taxes or vote.

ATF merely requires that the person actually reside in that state. And for members of the Armed Forces, they can also claim the state where their permanent duty station is located.
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Old June 8, 2016, 01:22 PM   #5
Armed_Chicagoan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Example 2.

A maintains a home in State X and a home in State Y. A resides in State X except for weekends or the summer months of the year and in State Y for the weekends or the summer months of the year. During the time that A actually resides in State X, A is a resident of State X, and during the time that A actually resides in State Y, A is a resident of State Y.
The OP maintains a home in Arizona, how is he not a resident of Arizona when he goes back there?

eta: he's overseas, so I don't see how the "state" of his duty station is applicable.

Last edited by Armed_Chicagoan; June 8, 2016 at 01:30 PM.
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Old June 8, 2016, 01:29 PM   #6
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Armed_Chicagoan The OP maintains a home in Arizona, how is he not a resident of Arizona when he goes back there?
OP never said anything of the sort.

Remember, the From 4473 will ask for the buyer/transferees CURRENT RESIDENCE ADDRESS.....which by his own admission is not in the USA.

You didn't read any of the ATF material posted above did you?
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Old June 8, 2016, 01:33 PM   #7
Armed_Chicagoan
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If the OP has a room at his parent's house, and an Arizona state ID with that as his address, and his duty station is overseas and thus in no other state then what other state would he be a resident of?
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Old June 8, 2016, 02:04 PM   #8
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
If the OP has a room at his parent's house, and an Arizona state ID with that as his address, and his duty station is overseas and thus in no other state then what other state would he be a resident of?
Maybe none. Or maybe he is a resident of a State under state law for some purpose, like the payment of resident state income taxes or voting. But that doesn't necessarily make him a resident of that State for the purposes of the GCA.

Your problems are that you (1) don't understand how the law works; and (2) never bother to do any real research or study. As a consequence you are continually making erroneous statements about the law -- as is apparent from your posting history. You make a lot of assumptions, but you don't bother to validate those assumptions or get the facts.

For example, the OP did not say anything to support your contention that (post 5),:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
The OP maintains a home in Arizona,...
What he did say was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimio
...I'll be coming back to AZ eventually...
And that is not the same as having a home there. He could very well have the intention of eventually returning to and settling in Arizona without currently having a home there.

Posting bad information about legal matters could get someone into a lot of trouble if he was foolish enough to pay any attention to you.
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Old June 8, 2016, 02:19 PM   #9
Frank Ettin
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What does it mean to be a resident? It turns out that's not necessarily a simple question to answer.

It often involves questions of one's intent, but lawyers prove intent all the time using circumstantial evidence from which one's intentions are inferable. So the question of whether or not someone is a resident of a particular State can often involve examining all the facts and drawing a conclusion from those facts taken together.

State laws often define the concepts of residence and domicile in fairly general terms, e. g., where one intends to make his home, or his permanent place of residence, or where he intends to return when temporarily absent, or principal place of residence, or words or phrases of similar import. But the real issue is the facts or factors which will be needed to establish the definition is satisfied. Let's by way example consider California law on residence since I have it handy.

So under California Vehicle Code 12505:
Quote:
12505.

(a)
(1) For purposes of this division only and notwithstanding Section 516, residency shall be determined as a person’s state of domicile. “State of domicile” means the state where a person has his or her true, fixed, and permanent home and principal residence and to which he or she has manifested the intention of returning whenever he or she is absent.

Prima facie evidence of residency for driver’s licensing purposes includes, but is not limited to, the following:
(A) Address where registered to vote.

(B) Payment of resident tuition at a public institution of higher education.

(C) Filing a homeowner’s property tax exemption.

(D) Other acts, occurrences, or events that indicate presence in the state is more than temporary or transient.
(2) California residency is required of a person in order to be issued a commercial driver’s license under this code.
(b) The presumption of residency in this state may be rebutted by satisfactory evidence that the licensee’s primary residence is in another state....
It can also depend on one's purpose for claiming residency or non-residency. If it's a matter of being a California resident for the purposes of being eligible for resident tuition at the University of California, see here:
Quote:
Establishing physical presence and intent

To meet these requirements, you must be continuously physically present in California for more than one year (366 days) immediately prior to the residence determination date (generally the first day of classes) and intend to make California your home permanently. You can demonstrate your intention to stay in California by relinquishing legal ties to your former state and establishing legal ties to California.

Here are some ways you can establish intent:
  • Remain in California when school is not in session.

  • Register to vote and vote in California elections.

  • Designate your California address as permanent on all school and employment records, including current military records.

  • Obtain a California driver's license within 10 days of settling in California. (If you've never had a driver’s license in any state, then obtain a California identification card.)

  • If you have a car, obtain a California motor vehicle registration within 20 days of settling in California.

  • Work in California and file California resident income tax forms from the date of entry into the state. Income earned outside of California after that date must also be declared in California.

  • Establish and maintain active bank accounts in California banks and close out-of-state accounts.

  • Surrender all out-of-state identification (including driver's license).

  • Establish a permanent home where your belongings are kept.

  • Obtain a license for professional practice in California.
You’ll need to relinquish out-of-state ties and demonstrate intent while simultaneously meeting the physical presence requirement.
If the question is California residency for tax purposes, see here (pg 4):
Quote:
The underlying theory of residency is that you are a resident of the place where you have the closest connections.

The following list shows some of the factors you can use to help determine your residency status. Since your residence is usually the place where you have the closest ties, you should compare your ties to California with your ties elsewhere. In using these factors, it is the strength of your ties, not just the number of ties, that determines your residency.This is only a partial list of the factors to consider. No one factor is determinative. Consider all the facts of your particular situation to determine your residency status.

Factors to consider are as follows:

• Amount of time you spend in California versus amount of time you spend outside California.

• Location of your spouse/RDP and children.

• Location of your principal residence.

• State that issued your driver’s license.

• State where your vehicles are registered.

• State where you maintain your professional licenses.

• State where you are registered to vote.

• Location of the banks where you maintain accounts.

• The origination point of your financial transactions.

• Location of your medical professionals and other healthcare providers (doctors, dentists etc.), accountants, and attorneys.

• Location of your social ties, such as your place of worship, professional associations, or social and country clubs of which you are a member.

• Location of your real property and investments.

• Permanence of your work assignments in California.
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Old June 8, 2016, 02:35 PM   #10
MikeG
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Here in Colorado they ask active duty military members for proof of residence or PCS orders to make sure they live in this state.
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Old June 8, 2016, 03:30 PM   #11
Armed_Chicagoan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Ettin
Maybe none. Or maybe he is a resident of a State under state law for some purpose, like the payment of resident state income taxes or voting. But that doesn't necessarily make him a resident of that State for the purposes of the GCA.

Your problems are that you (1) don't understand how the law works; and (2) never bother to do any real research or study. As a consequence you are continually making erroneous statements about the law -- as is apparent from your posting history. You make a lot of assumptions, but you don't bother to validate those assumptions or get the facts.

For example, the OP did not say anything to support your contention that (post 5),:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan

The OP maintains a home in Arizona,...
What he did say was:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimio

...I'll be coming back to AZ eventually...
And that is not the same as having a home there. He could very well have the intention of eventually returning to and settling in Arizona without currently having a home there.

Posting bad information about legal matters could get someone into a lot of trouble if he was foolish enough to pay any attention to you.
A few points Frank:
1. We don't know what definition the OP is using for "residence". I think it certainly matters if he still has a room at his parent's house, and intends to move back there once out of the military. The examples given in the law don't exclude his situation, and allows for part-time residence in a state.

2. The only mention of military personnel in the law is the case where they are stationed in a state, not a case where they are stationed overseas as is the OP.

3. There's at least a good case to be made that under the plain meaning rule he is a resident of AZ for the purpose of the law cited. Otherwise you have the absurd result whereby being stationed stateside or overseas determines his right to purchase a firearm.

4. You haven't cited any case law whereby his situation renders him unable to purchase a firearm as long as he is a member of the military and stationed overseas.

5. The states are given broad authority to form their own firearms laws. The OP never said he intended to purchase a firearm only from a FFL, what federal law prohibits him from purchasing from a private party under Arizona law assuming he has a valid Arizona ID?
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Old June 8, 2016, 03:45 PM   #12
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Ok, the entire time I was in the army... I did all my business as if I was physically located in Texas, no matter what part of the world I was stationed.

My lifelong home was in Texas, all the cars I owned during the time I was in the army were registered in the county of my home of record (except when stationed in Germany)

I'm very positive that I could have bought firearms in Texas and left them at the home that I maintained in Texas. After all firearms I already owned were there.

In the army you are legally a resident in the state in which you resided at the time you took your oath unless you decided to change that before you are discharged.
I never once had anything other than Texas dl except in Germany, but I was still a resident of Texas for every legal purpose.

I could be wrong, but I wouldn't have blinked twice about purchasing something in my home state while on leave and leaving it at my home of record.
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Old June 8, 2016, 03:51 PM   #13
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It's been a long time since I had to deal with this but seem to recall that an active duty military person has dual residents the state they are stationed in and their "Home of Record".
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Old June 8, 2016, 06:06 PM   #14
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
A few points Frank:
1. We don't know what definition the OP is using for "residence". I think it certainly matters if he still has a room at his parent's house, and intends to move back there once out of the military. The examples given in the law don't exclude his situation, and allows for part-time residence in a state.
It doesn't matter what definition the OP uses for "residence." What matters is the definition the BATFE uses in enforcing the law. I believe you are assuming facts not in evidence. The OP wrote in his OP:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimio
I can't use my parents address, since that would be lying on the form, which is a felony if I'm not mistaken if I were to be caught doing so. (Can't imagine that would be difficult for the powers that be. Just taking a look at my income and where I'd be filing my taxes would be a clear indication that my actual place of residence is clearly not in CONUS)
Even he recognizes that he does not have a residence at his parents' house. The BATFE interpretation of residence is "where you live." Unlike for taxes or voting or drivers' licenses, the BATFE does recognize multiple residences -- if you OWN a vacation house in a different state from your primary residence, for BATFE purposesyou are a resident of your primary state while you are living there, and you are a resident of your vacation state while you are living in your vacation house.

Kimio does not own his parents' house. He apparently has NO residence in the United States.
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Old June 8, 2016, 06:38 PM   #15
rickyrick
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Not sure why he's filing taxes inconsistent with his home of record.
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Old June 8, 2016, 06:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
rickyrick Ok, the entire time I was in the army... I did all my business as if I was physically located in Texas, no matter what part of the world I was stationed.
Irrelevant for the purposes of buying a firearm.



Quote:
My lifelong home was in Texas, all the cars I owned during the time I was in the army were registered in the county of my home of record (except when stationed in Germany)
Irrelevant for the purposes of buying a firearm.



Quote:
I'm very positive that I could have bought firearms in Texas and left them at the home that I maintained in Texas. .
Positive?
Have you actually read what ATF considers as "State of Residence" for the purposes of buying a firearm?



Quote:
After all firearms I already owned were there
Irrelevant for the purposes of buying a firearm.



Quote:
In the army you are legally a resident in the state in which you resided at the time you took your oath unless you decided to change that before you are discharged.
Irrelevant for the purposes of buying a firearm.
Where you vote, pay taxes or what the military considers as your home state has nothing to do with what ATF considers as your current residence address or state of residence.



Quote:
I never once had anything other than Texas dl except in Germany, but I was still a resident of Texas for every legal purpose.
Where your drivers license was issued has nothing to do with what state you are actually living in.



Quote:
I could be wrong, but I wouldn't have blinked twice about purchasing something in my home state while on leave and leaving it at my home of record.
You might not have blinked, but you might have committed a felony because ATF does not recognize "home of record" as "state of residence".
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Old June 8, 2016, 06:47 PM   #17
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
...I think it certainly matters if he still has a room at his parent's house, and intends to move back there once out of the military....
You are assuming facts not in evidence. What matters is what's true, and we have no reason to believe that what you've assumed here is true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
....The examples given in the law don't exclude his situation....
You don't know what the OP's situation is. Indeed none of us do. We all just have a little bit of information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
....The only mention of military personnel in the law is the case where they are stationed in a state, not a case where they are stationed overseas as is the OP....
Which still doesn't validate your suppositions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
....There's at least a good case to be made that under the plain meaning rule he is a resident of AZ for the purpose of the law cited....
Really? Then make it, and properly cite applicable legal authority to support your case. You might think a good case could be made, but what you think doesn't count. It's only a good case if there's a good chance that a judge will buy it, and a judge isn't going to buy anything not supported by proper citation to applicable legal authority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
...Otherwise you have the absurd result whereby being stationed stateside or overseas determines his right to purchase a firearm. ....
And that is a serious issue. There are apparently a great many U. S. nationals living abroad with no place of residence in the U.S. who can't buy a gun in the U. S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
....You haven't cited any case law....
You haven't cited anything except your fantasies. You claimed in post 2 that the OP is a resident of Arizona for the purposes of the GCA if he has an Arizona driver's license. It's you burden to back that up with evidence and legal authority.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
...The states are given broad authority to form their own firearms laws....
Cite the Arizona law that applies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armed_Chicagoan
...what federal law prohibits him from purchasing from a private party under Arizona law assuming he has a valid Arizona ID? ...
Unless having an Arizona ID makes him an Arizona resident for the purpose of the GCA you're suggesting that it's okay for the OP to falsely claim Arizona residence to induce an Arizona resident to sell a gun to a non-resident. Interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
Ok, the entire time I was in the army... I did all my business as if I was physically located in Texas, no matter what part of the world I was stationed.....
So what? Your having done something is irrelevant to the question of what the law is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
...I'm very positive that I could have bought firearms in Texas...
How nice for you. But again, so what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
...I never once had anything other than Texas dl except in Germany, but I was still a resident of Texas for every legal purpose....
Except it seems for the purpose of the GCA as "state of residence" is defined in the applicable ATF regulations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
....I could be wrong,....
You are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rwilson452
..It's been a long time since I had to deal with this but seem to recall that an active duty military person has dual residents the state they are stationed in and their "Home of Record"...
Yes, for certain purposes such as voting. But apparently not for the purpose of the GCA as "state of residence" is defined in the applicable ATF regulations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
Not sure why he's filing taxes inconsistent with his home of record.
Quite possibly because there are things we don't know about the OP's situation.
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Old June 8, 2016, 07:03 PM   #18
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Armed_Chicagoan
1. We don't know what definition the OP is using for "residence".
I think it certainly matters if he still has a room at his parent's house, and intends to move back there once out of the military. The examples given in the law don't exclude his situation, and allows for part-time residence in a state.
You keep inventing your own version of what the OP has said about his situation. Please stop.



Quote:
2. The only mention of military personnel in the law is the case where they are stationed in a state, not a case where they are stationed overseas as is the OP.
That's because military personnel are the same as any other US citizen when they reside outside of the US.......they cannot buy a firearm unless they actually reside in the US.



Quote:
3. There's at least a good case to be made that under the plain meaning rule he is a resident of AZ for the purpose of the law cited. Otherwise you have the absurd result whereby being stationed stateside or overseas determines his right to purchase a firearm.
A "good case"?
Maybe you should read the law and regulations before posting again.
While I agree the regulation is absurd.....it IS THE LAW.



Quote:
4. You haven't cited any case law whereby his situation renders him unable to purchase a firearm as long as he is a member of the military and stationed overseas.
And neither have you!
What Frank and I have done is post the actual ATF regulation and the most recent Ruling on "State of Residence", whereas you are just inventing your own reality and making erroneous assumptions.



Quote:
5. The states are given broad authority to form their own firearms laws....
Which is irrelevant.........states certainly can be more restrictive than Federal law, but that doesn't render Federal law moot.



Quote:
The OP never said he intended to purchase a firearm only from a FFL, what federal law prohibits him from purchasing from a private party under Arizona law assuming he has a valid Arizona ID?
This one:
§478.30 Out-of-State disposition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No nonlicensee shall transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any other nonlicensee, who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides: Provided, That the provisions of this section:

(a) shall not apply to the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or any acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence; and

(b) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[T.D. ATF-313, 56 FR 32508, July 17, 1991; 57 FR 1205, Jan. 10, 1992]
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Old June 8, 2016, 07:26 PM   #19
rickyrick
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I posted my experience because it's common and just to highlight where a lot of these misconceptions come from.
For 15 years I was told that as an active duty service member, that you are a legal resident of your home of record no matter what, unless you initiate the change of residence.
A service member on active duty under orders is not the same as a civilian working overseas, I've done both, two totally different situations.

Again, I didn't post as any legal advice, I'm a only posting as a viewpoint as it's told to service members... it's assumed the op was talking about leave from the military, but he never specified. I was under the impression that Kimio was a service member from other threads. I can only assume that he is not a resident of Arizona if he was, the question may not have come up.
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Old June 8, 2016, 08:09 PM   #20
coltsnaurora
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The easy answer is to visit your JAG office and get tier opinion. They have access to your DD214 and you can show what identification you have.
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Old June 8, 2016, 08:27 PM   #21
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coltsnaurora
The easy answer is to visit your JAG office and get tier opinion. They have access to your DD214 and you can show what identification you have.
What DD-214? Kimio is apparently still on active duty. The DD-214 is a document issued upon separation from active duty. He shouldn't have a DD-214 at this point, unless I'm missing something.

http://www.dd214.com/dd214_faq#what

Quote:
What is the DD214?

The DD Form 214 is an official document issued by the Army, Air Force, Navy and Marines at the time of discharge or separation from military service. The DD214 shows your status as a separated or retired military member and the nature of your service including dates, awards and decorations and other important details.
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Old June 8, 2016, 08:54 PM   #22
rickyrick
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I must be always buying firearms wrong. Whenever I buy a firearm: I go look at the gun, make a decision, tell the clerk I want it, clerk gives me form to fill out, I return form to clerk, clerk asks for ID, clerk asks if the address on the ID is correct, I confirm, clerk scribbles stuff on the paper, clerk says wait 15 min for the background check to complete, I browse the store or go grab lunch, I find the clerk after a reasonable amount of time, clerk finalizes the sale and usually has me verify the ser#, I pay, then most places walk me to the door hands me a firearm.


The only mention of the military on 4473 is if the person is buying where stationed, but not his permanent residence, then the buyer must list both addresses. It does not say that you cannot buy a firearm in your home state if you are in your home state. It even states that if you are buying the firearm at a weekend residence then you list the weekend address.
I'm sorry but the OP should have a stateside residence for legal purposes even if stationed overseas. None of my overseas duty stations were considered a residence.
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Old June 8, 2016, 08:56 PM   #23
dogtown tom
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Quote:
coltsnaurora The easy answer is to visit your JAG office and get tier opinion. They have access to your DD214 and you can show what identification you have.
Worst advice possible.
ATF regulations are clear and posted above.
What identification the OP has is inconsequential to answering questions 2 and 13 on the Form 4473 truthfully.
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Old June 8, 2016, 09:04 PM   #24
Frank Ettin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickyrick
I must be always buying firearms wrong....
You quite possibly have been.

But here's how the world works. If the question is about whether something is legal or how to do something legally, the answer is not a story about how you've done things.

If the question is about whether something is legal or how to do something legally, the only sort of answer worth anything requires properly citing the applicable statutes, regulations, case law.

The fact that you might have been doing illegal things all your life but haven't been caught [yet] doesn't make what you've been doing legal.
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Old June 8, 2016, 09:05 PM   #25
dogtown tom
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Quote:
rickyrick I must be always buying firearms wrong. Whenever I buy a firearm: I go look at the gun, make a decision, tell the clerk I want it, clerk gives me form to fill out, I return form to clerk, clerk asks for ID, clerk asks if the address on the ID is correct, I confirm, clerk scribbles stuff on the paper, clerk says wait 15 min for the background check to complete, I browse the store or go grab lunch, I find the clerk after a reasonable amount of time, clerk finalizes the sale and usually has me verify the ser#, I pay, then most places walk me to the door hands me a firearm.
What makes you think that's wrong?
As long as you answer the questions correctly and truthfully you have not violated any law.
And it has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question.


Quote:
The only mention of the military on 4473 is if the person is buying where stationed, but not his permanent residence, then the buyer must list both addresses.
Wrong. Read it again.



Quote:
It does not say that you cannot buy a firearm in your home state if you are in your home state.
Good grief have you not read anything in this thread?
For the purposes of acquiring a firearm under Federal law there is NO SUCH THING as a "home state"......and never has been.



Quote:
It even states that if you are buying the firearm at a weekend residence then you list the weekend address.
Again, not the OP's situation is it?


Quote:
I'm sorry but the OP should have a stateside residence for legal purposes even if stationed overseas. None of my overseas duty stations were considered a residence.
ATF disagrees and so did Congress in 1968.
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