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Old May 18, 2017, 11:00 PM   #1
Bucksnort1
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Hornady 45 ACP Target Bullets

I have a handful of Hornady, .451", 185 grain target bullets. These bullets have full metal jackets except for a small amount of lead exposed at the flat surface. There is no lead protruding above the jacket. The bullet is conical in shape. I'm assuming I load them as a regular jacketed bullet. Is this correct?

Also, the bullets are only .515" (approx.) long. If I seat them so the C.O.A.L. is .1275", the bullet will fall out of the case.

What is my C.O.A.L. for this bullet? I have no load data for them.

I have been loading 185 grain JHP bullets with 5.2 grains of HP-38 powder. May I use this recipe with this bullet or any recipe for a 185 grain JHP or FMJ?
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Old May 19, 2017, 12:49 AM   #2
condor bravo
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What is your definition of a regular jacketed bullet, you seem to be describing a full metal jacketed bullet which in fact does have an exposed portion of the base so load them as usual. Plated bullets are completely enclosed with a thinner layer of copper and maybe that is what you are referring to as "regular" but most would probably call the FMJs as more of a regular bullet and are generally preferable to plated. Does the box describe the bullets as either plated or FMJ? It may seem odd that FMJs are not fully enclosed.

So load them the same as those you have been using with the other 185s. Not sure how you came up with COAL as .1275. There's obviously a misprint somewhere. For a 185 gr, the COAL should be around 1.175. 1.275 would be for a 230 gr round nose bullet. The 5.2 HP-38 sounds fine.
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Old May 19, 2017, 02:17 AM   #3
74A95
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Are you trying to describe this bullet" https://www.midwayusa.com/product/75...-bulk-packaged

If so, their overall length will be very short, about 1.135".

But those bullets are not conical. So maybe you're describing something else.

It sounds more like the Sierra bullet. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/26...ket-box-of-100

Their OAL would be around 1.155".
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Old May 19, 2017, 10:57 AM   #4
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74A95,

I bought 30 of these from a seller at a gun show. He had it labeled Hornady but I believe the Sierra bullet you attached is the guilty party. It is not a plated bullet but rather a copper jacket bullet.

You gave overall length of 1.155". Do I load this like a regular 185 grain jacketed bullet?
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Old May 19, 2017, 10:59 AM   #5
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He is using the Hornady HAP (Hornady Action Pistol) bullet.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/11...d-hollow-point

The HAP bullet will use the same criteria as the XTP.

Start using a COAL of 1.135". Seat them so they pass the plunk test as COAL is just a suggested starting point. It all depends on your pistol as to the seating depth.

With HP38, 5.2 grn. is a good place to start.

Edit to place proper link for the 185 gr HAP bullet.

Last edited by Dufus; May 19, 2017 at 03:45 PM.
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Old May 19, 2017, 11:10 AM   #6
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Terminology seems a bit skewed, but I'd suggest the OP look in a Hornady manual where he will see a pic of the bullet and get specific load data (OAL). Most librarys will have a copy if he doesn't want to buy one...

This is one example of where a "new reloader's hint" is useful; find a load in you reloading manuals before you buy components...
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Old May 19, 2017, 11:21 AM   #7
74A95
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Bucksnort1, yes, jacketed bullet data is the proper data. The Sierra manual lists their OAL as 1.155".

They could also be the Hornady HAP bullet, as Dufus indicated, though they are a hollow point bullet, which looks different than the Sierra jacketed flat point bullet. Here is the Hornady HAP bullet link: http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Cal-...-box-of-1-900/

Hornady lists an OAL of 1.245" for the 185 grain HAP.

Either way, just a little bit of the shoulder should protrude past the case mouth. You can test the OAL by using the plunk test, described here: http://www.shootingtimes.com/reloadi...he-plunk-test/
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Old May 19, 2017, 11:34 AM   #8
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Quote:
He is using the Hornady HAP (Hornady Action Pistol) bullet.

Dufus
If I pulled up the correct bullet, note that the HAP bullet is shown as a 200 gr hollow point rather than a 185 grain, but there is a 185 HAP. I assume you are referring to the 30 bullets from the gun show as the same as shown in the link. The OP seems positive that everything he has or has been using is 185 gr.
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Old May 19, 2017, 12:06 PM   #9
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"...load them as a regular jacketed bullet..." Yep. 185 grain data. Hodgdon says 1.135" is the OAL for a 185. More important that your pistol will feed a wee bullet like that, reliably.
5.2 grains of HP-38 is .2 above minimum, but you need to work up the load, not just pick one. Try the Hornady's at 5.2. If you only have a few, don't get too worked up over 'em. Unless they shoot better than the JHP's.
"...libraries will have a copy..." Never seen load manuals in a library. Didn't look the time I spent my summer vacation in downtown Buffalo though(a really scary story. snicker.).
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Old May 19, 2017, 12:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Yep. 185 grain data. Hodgdon says 1.135" is the OAL for a 185.
The actual OAL will depend on the bullet nose profile which differs from one 185 grain bullet to the other. 1.135" would be way too short for some bullets like the Hornady HAP.

Readers might find this link useful: http://38super.net/Pages/Bullet%20De...liability.html

The last half of the article describes bullet nose shape and overall length.
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Old May 19, 2017, 01:33 PM   #11
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For what its worth personally I would not load any 45 acp longer than 1.250.
A few matches ago a competitor loaded his 45 acps to 1.270 checking them with his case gauge never checking the rounds in the barrel chamber. They would NOT chamber. Luckily between 2 of us we had enough ammo to get him through the match.
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Old May 19, 2017, 01:55 PM   #12
Jim Watson
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True.
You will see a SAAMI figure of 1.275" for .45 ACP.
But that is a MAXIMUM developed with the original hardball bullet which has a somewhat elliptical nose and fits the magazine and chamber where other shapes do not. Even USGI hardball is typically around 1.265" to allow a little margin.

Recipe Hunting is a slow and uncertain route to load data.
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Old May 19, 2017, 05:26 PM   #13
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If it is indeed the Sierra.

According to the Sierra Edition V 8th printing, the COAL should be a minimum of 1.155".

Which is what I do load mine to, for best function through the magazine, and for chambering.

These over a load of Ramshot Silhouette is just the ticket for accuracy, and power enough for critters that don't need the bullet to expand as much as a HP.

I mix the Sierra JHP, with the Tournament Masters, in the same magazine.
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Old May 19, 2017, 06:41 PM   #14
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Now I'm confused. I've seen two different lengths. One is 1.155" and the other is 1.245". I can only quote what is on the container label with these bullets. As I said, and the seller could be wrong, they are 185 grain Hornady target SPs. The bullet is not plated. It has a copper jacket except the for somewhat flat nose where there is a bit of visible lead, which does not protrude above the jacket.

So after reading some of the responses, I decided to load as a 185 grain jacketed bullet but I have a bit of a problem. My 45 ACP dies were made before 1980. They were given to me a long time ago. The de-cap die also bells. I've had no problem loading lead and other jacketed bullets of various weights, including another 185 grain JHP; however, that's not the case with this little target bullet.

When I try to seat, I get a lot of resistance. I measured the bullets and find them to be .452". I can't get the case with bullet to touch the seating pin.

Perhaps it's time to toss these little guys in the trash and maybe it's time to buy some more up to date dies.
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Old May 19, 2017, 07:04 PM   #15
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Can you screw the seating stem further down into the die?

Any 45 dies should be able to properly seat virtually any 45 bullet. Bullets with a short nose have been around since . . . forever.
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Old May 19, 2017, 07:31 PM   #16
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I have 3 sets of 45 ACP dies.

One was late 60s and the other early 70s. The other mid 80s.

All three work like a champ as they are supposed to.
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Old May 19, 2017, 08:35 PM   #17
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Bucksnort1
Keep trying with the bullets and die, don't let them be the winner. Back to the COAL, the 1.275 is for jacketed round nose hardball bullets so ignore that one. The 1.155 is what is indicated for the bullets that we think you have. In my first post I mentioned 1.175 that Lyman shows for a 185 jacketed hollow point. Use the length that appears proper and of course functions properly through the gun. It is not absolutely necessary that the length conform to the exact thousands of the lengths that are mentioned. Perhaps be guided somewhat by the length of your original 185 loadings.

For the seating die, as mentioned above, you should be able to screw the seating stem down enough to seat any bullet. One other thing about the seating die, assuming you are flaring the case to ease bullet seating, the seating die may be capable of applying just enough crimp to flatten out the flare in the form of a taper crimp. Do not crimp into the bullet. That adjustment would be done by screwing the die body down to the point where the flare is removed and of course would have to be coordinated with the seating stem to maintain proper length while at the same time removing the flare.
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Old May 19, 2017, 09:14 PM   #18
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Condor Bravo,

Thanks. Good information. I understand about the seating die and removing the mouth bell. I will work with it more.

Don P says he always loads to 1.250".

Last week, when I loaded my 185 JHPs, I used the 1.275" COAL. They are still at that length and look strange. Should I seat these just a bit more so they look like a 45ACP? Do I need to be concerned about increased pressure if I do this?

As I said, I'm using 5.2 grains of HP-38. I have forgotten my source. I am not at my loading desk. I never load any handgun cartridge above starting grains. I don't load handgun for hunting or to punch holes in paper at 1,000 yards so I'm not concerned about splitting hairs. I load mostly because I love it and it keeps me off the streets but not out of the woods.

I apply the same principle for my rifle cartridges. I do use them for hunting and have never had an accuracy problem. For big game hunting, I'm not concerned about driving tacks at 1,000 yards.

74A95, I have screwed the die down as far as it will go and the stem as far as it will go. I will apply a little lubricant to the case and see what happens.
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Old May 19, 2017, 09:44 PM   #19
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There is no such a thing as one size fits all with respect to OAL. Read this link: http://38super.net/Pages/Bullet%20De...liability.html. It should help to explain things in more detail. OAL varies depending on the bullet nose shape, and different bullets have different nose shapes (see figure 5 at the link). Look in any reloading manual and you'll see that different bullets in the same caliber are loaded to different OALs.

1.275" is the Maximum OAL for the .45 Auto cartridge as defined by SAAMI (http://www.saami.org/). But few bullets can be loaded to that length and still fit in the magazine or chamber.

A hollow point (flat nosed) bullet loaded to 1.275" might not fit in your magazine. I loaded some Hornady 230 grain HAP bullets (flat nosed) to 1.250 and they were too long to fit in my magazine. They would get stuck! I had to seat them to 1.235" to fit.

A round nose bullet and a flat nosed bullet have a different diagonal length, and it's the diagonal length that has to fit in the magazine because the rounds lie at an angle in the magazine. See Figures 10 and 11 at the link I provided to explain why that is true.

Different bullets require a different OAL to fit in the chamber as well. See figures 12 and 13 at the link I posted for an explanation.
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Old May 19, 2017, 10:38 PM   #20
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Re: Don P loads to 1.250
No doubt that is all well and good; he knows what works in his guns and probably most others do also and may not pay any attention to the cartridge length. I had just been loading some .45 ACPs also and set the bullet depth to just what seemed proper for the bullet without considering cartridge length. But due to the interest in this thread emphasizing cartridge length, I measured mine which turned out to be 1.263 and work flawlessly through five 1911s and one .45 S&W Mdl 745. This was somewhat of a relief since I had just bought three new mags for the 1911s that sometimes require some breaking in. The bullets were 185 cast SWCs. So it isn't necessary sometimes to conform exactly to the recipes.

Bucksnort1
I would suggest setting the bullets back some below the 1.275. However, have you tried those to see how they function? At that length you could very well be looking at a hangup or two.
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Old May 20, 2017, 12:00 AM   #21
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A picture of the bullet would go a long way to clearing up the confusion.

There are conical match bullets and SWC match bullets, long nose swc, short nose swcs, all the same weights, jacketed and lead.

MAX COAL .45ACP is 1.275". This is NOT a "load to" length, it's a "do not exceed" length. Slightly shorter is better, less likely to hang up in magazines. standard ball ammo 230gr FMJ is a few thousandths shorter than 1.275"

As you noted, if you load a short 185gr slug to 1.275" there's almost no bullet in the case. Load them shorter, you won't hurt anything. Generally speaking, .45acp SWC bullets should be loaded with the shoulder of the bullet at or just barely above the case mouth. Loaded length will then be what ever it is, 1.235", 1.115", whatever, depending on the nose length of the bullet. As long as they are shorter than max length it should work fine.

Don't worry (too much) about a slightly deeper or different seating depth, (unless working with max loads, and the bullet in question isn't the right one for that, anyway).

The .45ACP is a fairly low pressure round, and much, much more tolerant of a slight change in seating depth than a 9mm or that grenade in waiting .40S&W.

Load them so the "look right" use a moderate charge, and shoot them up. Next time, buy something you definitely know what it is.

And NEVER buy any "reloaded" ammo (especially in bags with no maker's name & address) at a gun show, unless you intend on breaking it down for cases and slugs and tossing the powder. The risk just isn't worth the savings.

Good Luck!
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Old May 20, 2017, 01:16 AM   #22
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I concur with your reference to the .40 S&W as a grenade in waiting. While I hate to admit it, when I was out today I fired a few 40s in a Springfield with some rounds that I had loaded and also fired some time back and had no recollection of anything amiss. However, examination of the fired cases revealed very flattened primers and one blown out completely. Loads were with the recently discussed HP-38 and a 170 gr SWC. I was preparing to load more of those but now obviously not. Impossible to pull with an impact bullet puller so what to do with the rest of them? I have both an auto as well as a S&W revolver in 10mm but don't suppose they can fire the 40s unless there are moon clips for the revolver. Both guns are hefty and could handle the rounds. What to do with the remaining ammunition is now the question.
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Old May 20, 2017, 10:08 AM   #23
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Checking the net, moon clips are available for the 610 S&W 10mm revolver so maybe that is the way to go for the 40s. The Lyman and Speer manuals only show 231 rather than HP-38, but based on the 231 data the questionable loads were borderline but none were exact to what I had been using.
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Old May 20, 2017, 10:31 AM   #24
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Quote:
Impossible to pull with an impact bullet puller so what to do with the rest of them?
Why impossible??

Difficult, I can see, but impossible?

I've got the big orange hammer from Lyman (also the RCBS collet style dies for my press), and I've pulled 400 7.62mm NATO ball with no real problem, none required more than 4-5 raps.

The key to an inertia puller is it has to move fast, and stop suddenly. You don't have to swing it hard, just fast. Its the sudden stop that does the work.

Wood, even hard wood is "too soft" for best efficiency. Even a concrete floor is kind of "soft" for this. I use the iron top of my wood stove (COLD, no fire in the stove, of course) and it works pretty well for me. The bigger the caliber, the better it works (more inertia). The most difficult ones are .22 CF rounds with their light bullets, but those can be done too, just takes a few more wacks.

I admit, I've never pulled down .40s, I don't own any .40s but seems like it should work, it works for everything else, with varying degrees of efficiency.

One thing you might try, before using the hammer puller, seat the bullets a little DEEPER (.1" or so) then pull. This breaks any adhesion between the bullet and the case (such as the lacquer sealant) and allows the bullet to move more easily.

Assemble the round in the puller CORRECTLY, and play wack a mole on a good HARD surface for a while, they should come out.
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Old May 20, 2017, 10:32 AM   #25
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Wow, much ado about nuttin'? K.I.S.S.!! First, one has to identify the bullet. Then the reloader should find the bullet manufacturer's recommended OAL and take all the anonymous "suggestions" with a grain of Bullseye (in other words, ferget forum reloading data)...
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