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Old January 22, 2017, 07:59 PM   #101
Tinbucket
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Full Auto of any real use?

I'm hearing the same stuff Nannies say about our little near 700 hp German car.
You don't need that. there is nowhere you can give it any pedal.
It's a sin. You got a pay 1800 gas guzzler tax.
You can't have because I don't want you to have it, is waht they are realy saying.
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Old May 16, 2017, 05:15 PM   #102
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Come to think of it, I think I would be afraid of getting burned by the barrel with a full auto.


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Old May 16, 2017, 06:54 PM   #103
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P.S. Can we do without the photograph of a black man as the criminal? Why inject race into the discussion? In a couple of "interactions" in my time as a deputy sheriff, the bad boys were definitely white. And in a whole bunch of wars, the only black people on the battlefield were Americans.
I know its a little late here, but I somehow missed it way back then, and just now saw it, and wanted to address it.

There was no intention of "interjecting race" here, that target simply happened to come up in the queue that day I was shooting my MAC. Its the only colored target in the mix of about 6 or 7 targets I normally use. All the rest are "white". I suppose by this line of thinking, Im being racist towards them, as I shoot more of them. Women too, among other things.

The only thing drawing the response in question is the gun pointed at me as its the identifier of a threat. They offer the very same targets with no gun, a badge, or something else non-threatening. You dont see those targets here, because I didnt shoot them.

Seems someone always wants to make something completely innocent, into something political and/or controversial.

Just for the record, all I see there is a man with a gun in a threatening manner, and a "shoot", as opposed to a "no shoot" target. Just like all the rest. I'm a non-discriminatory, EOTE shooter. Just wanted to clear that up.





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Old May 16, 2017, 06:56 PM   #104
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Go shoot full auto and tell me different.
I do, and I can.

Take a little time to learn to shoot one, and you'll have a whole different outlook on things.
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Old May 16, 2017, 07:30 PM   #105
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My Dad, who was a front line solder in Europe in WW2, said this about the hand-held full autos used by the German army, "If they missed you with the first shot, you were probably safe, because recoil caused all the other shots to go high." I suspect that newer full autos are more effective, but I don't know.
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Old May 16, 2017, 08:30 PM   #106
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Well being humbled is a wonderful thing! LOL, I'm a bolt action fan, but anyways I feel more efficient with semi auto than full auto. But also, the reason I don't play console games is its too fast also. Suppose practice makes perfect in the end.

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Old May 16, 2017, 08:31 PM   #107
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I think owning a full auto would be a nice luxury, and add a fun option to a collection. Can't believe you lit up gramps like that though.
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Old May 17, 2017, 04:28 PM   #108
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Yea it might be nice to have but unless your in the military and under really heavy attack, it hasn't got one use at all.
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Old May 17, 2017, 04:38 PM   #109
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It could be useful in some extreme circumstances but the big drawback is needing 20 people operating reloading presses to keep the flow of ammo coming. The military brings in supplies that include ammo for the full auto guns. Most civilians don't have that kind of supply line.
Fun is a real use and the guys that attend the annual and semi annual full auto shoots reload all year for the few days of shooting. Would a full auto serve any critical need? I think not - or at least not for very long.
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Old May 17, 2017, 05:02 PM   #110
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I think the TV show was "Rapid Fire" with Mike Seeklander. I wasn't a religious watcher but they often cleared the target stage quicker in semi-auto than full. Pumping 50 rounds into one target is neato but why would you do that in real life?

Other than fun of course. Remember those BB machineguns and star targets at the fair? A lot of fun.

MGs are useful for area fire and anti-materiel fire. Basically, WAR. Exactly the type of guns protected by the 2nd Amendment. Probably very difficult to use responsibly in a civilian setting though.

My stance: Deregulate MGs and unfreeze the supply. Just don't confuse them with "general purpose guns".
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Old May 17, 2017, 05:02 PM   #111
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Suppose practice makes perfect in the end.
As it does with "anything". You get out of it, what you put in.

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Can't believe you lit up gramps like that though.
Sorry, I should have been clearer here. The first pic, the one that drew someones ire, was shot with a FA SWD M11/9mm "MAC". The others were shot with handguns. If I remember right, Gramps was had by the P238 I had for awhile, and the boy above him, with an LCP. The rest were Glocks.

I simply posted the others to show I wasnt discriminating. But now that the others are all white, Im sure it will come up the other way.

The whole point here is, if Gramps, or any of the others, is a threat to you, one you feel means imminent death or GBH, you light him up just as hard as you can go. What their color, age, faith, sexual orientation, etc, has no bearing on it.

The only thing anyone can hold against you is, if you carry a gun, you didnt at least try to prepare yourself in regular practice, and try to the best of your ability to deal with things, as crappy as they may be.

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Yea it might be nice to have but unless your in the military and under really heavy attack, it hasn't got one use at all.
Maybe if youre of that mindset. If something were going down and it was the handiest, I wouldnt hesitate to use it. Why would you not?

Of course, Im simply referring to saving my life and all the internet doom and gloom aside. I would prefer to do so, in ANY way necessary, and with anything necessary and available to accomplish that.

If you want to worry yourself into getting killed trying to remember what might get you in trouble down the line, and fail to do whats necessary to prevail, thats all on you.
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Old May 17, 2017, 05:02 PM   #112
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I would guess that would depend on what type of activities you participate in, that would make having heavy armament somewhat of a necessity, or if you feel particularly threatened.
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Old May 17, 2017, 05:16 PM   #113
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Pumping 50 rounds into one target is neato but why would you do that in real life?
You wouldnt. Just wondering, but why do you think you would?

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Just don't confuse them with "general purpose guns".
Many of them certainly could be.

Quote:
MGs are useful for area fire and anti-materiel fire.
I think some of the confusion here is, weapons whose main purpose is area fire, fire suppression, etc, and those whose main use, would be close range encounters.

Your M4, or Tommy gun, etc, are/were not meant to be used (normally) in long range encounters, in FA. They came with a selector for a reason, and if you understand their use, you know when "what" is appropriate.

Even the guns that were FA only, can usually pop off aimed single shots "accurately", once you learn the gun.

There seems to be a general consensus (and confusion) that anyone with a FA is just going to be spraying and praying and trying to shoot the gun like a hose. If your of that belief, then you certainly dont understand things.


Quote:
that would make having heavy armament somewhat of a necessity,
I think the readily available armor, is one of the main reasons youve seen the shift to rifle caliber guns with police departments, etc. A pistol caliber vest will stop SMG rounds, even if they are a bunch at once. Same goes for shotguns.
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Old May 17, 2017, 07:34 PM   #114
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You wouldnt. Just wondering, but why do you think you would?
The targets with 50 holes in them? To practice engaging separate targets it would seem wise to USE separate targets. Of course you might be practicing to engage a single opponent over and over and over. With a machinegun. That's cool.


I'm not doubting that you can use an SMG as a semi-auto. The question is whether the full auto function has much or any utility. I'd say lots of local PDs have select fire guns. Mine does. Can't say I've ever even heard of them being used in full auto. Any examples?

Even the military is moving away from full rock n roll in infantry rifles.

Obviously I have no problem with civilians having full autos. I'd pay maybe $25 bucks to have the feature on an AR. Doubt I'd use it much though. As was found on Rapid Fire (by experts), it's just not much of an advantage.
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Old May 17, 2017, 08:39 PM   #115
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The target I showed with the 50 holes in it, was simply for fun, and to show that the guns can be very controllable, even with full mag dumps.

We used to have friendly competition among friends using paper plates at 10 yards. One mag, one pull on the trigger. Whoever had the most rounds on the plate won. Once you understand the technique, its actually pretty easy. Is it anything other than fun and bragging rights? No. It is fun, and it does show you can control the gun, which does bleed over into other aspects of things.

Reality is quick bursts. Pick the target, give it a quick burst. Of course, thats assuming that is the appropriate response. It isnt always. But again, you need to know and understand that.

As far as the police using them, they have for years, both pistol and more so now, rifle caliber guns. I suppose how you were taught and what their (and their lawyers) doctrine is, determines what you do. Did they teach you to use them in any capacity? Or just tell you not to put the selector on anything other than semi?

I think the military is more worried about money and ammo expenditures than they are teaching people to shoot.

Not saying the games guys cant clear plates quicker in semi, they may well. With something living, what do you do if it doesnt? You keep shooting. A burst works a lot like buckshot out of a shotgun. Multiple instantaneous hits do more damage and tend to shut things down. If one is good, 3-5 are better.
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Old May 17, 2017, 09:53 PM   #116
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I'm quite sure that's why it exists, as there is a use for it.
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Old May 18, 2017, 05:53 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Don Fischer
unless your in the military and under really heavy attack, it hasn't got one use at all.
How does being subject to the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) or not affect the usefulness of a weapon if you're under really heavy attack?
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Old May 19, 2017, 12:47 AM   #118
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Full auto has two primary uses.

1. Extreme close quarters, less than 25 yards

2. Suppressive fire where your primary goal is not to kill, but to keep yourself and/or your battles/civvies/etc safe by reducing the enemy's effectiveness. At longer than 100m full auto becomes extremely detrimental to the aim of any weapon not built to primarily run on full auto (open bolt weapons).
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Old May 19, 2017, 08:16 AM   #119
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I've never shot at anyone with any of the firearms I own. I still find them as useful as any other item I have purchased to enjoy. Full auto is no different than a single shot 50 BMG or a pink .22 long rifle for a little girl at that point. It's fun.

Kids don't need ice cream, what use is ice cream? Why would anyone ever buy ice cream?
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Old June 1, 2017, 10:34 PM   #120
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Local range has a large selection of full auto you can rent. The gun rental itself is generally just $10. But you're required to buy and use their ammo. And that's where they get you...
For example, a 25 round mag for the 10/22 is $25 each. Using $50 a 500 pack ammo.

Rate of fire makes a huge difference in what I've tried. There's a WWII German gun that's slower than a good semi can be fired, very easy to keep on target.
The fa 10/22 on the other hand is very high rate and climbs far more than you'd expect.

As someone said, even if not used, it would be nice to have the choice.
I drive a truck. Don't tow a trailer everywhere I go, even though I got 2 of them...
If I had the selector, it would rarely go fa. Burst is best way to quickly and accurately fire, I'm my experience.

I'm still waiting for their Tommy to get fixed...
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Old June 2, 2017, 01:50 PM   #121
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Like a Corvette or other fancy car, they are fun things to have, but to rely on them for daily use...? IMHO Full Auto's effectiveness is-like the shotgun's-"greatly exaggerated". encourages a "Point and Pull (and Pray)" attitude. In Vietnam with the limited visibility caused by thick foliage aimed fire was ineffective and the 5.56 made more sense. In WWII the Soviets issued lage numbers of PPSh M1941s and PPS M1943s, easier to produce and train conscript
troops, encouraged aggressiveness and a willingness to close with the enemy, something the Germans didn't like.
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Old June 2, 2017, 02:34 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by jmorris
I agree, it was just the first example I came across that showed that they are not some uncontrollable beast that sprays bullets in every direction except where the shooter intended them to go. However, a guy that doesn't really know what he is doing might even be a better example vs someone who has BTDT.
My first "Chuck" attempt with a MAC-10 resulted in one round on the edge of a B-27 target at 10yds, two rounds on paper and the remainder of the magazine to parts unknown. You could have given me a Jennings J-22 and I could have done better.

A .45 caliber submachinegun with a 1200rpm rate of fire and sized like a big pistol is not a puppy dog. You certainly don't want to be trying anything you first saw in a movie with one if you don't have some experience with them.
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Old June 3, 2017, 05:02 AM   #123
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Like a Corvette or other fancy car, they are fun things to have, but to rely on them for daily use...?
That's an interesting comparison to make since transferables cost as much as Corvettes.
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Old July 6, 2017, 08:41 PM   #124
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I'm new here and saw this thread. Please don't beat me up to hard for bringing it back. I will expect a black eye or broken rib over it. I have read all of this and for the average person most of this is true. Every gun has its place. Different jobs call for different guns. Back in my day uncle Sam flipped the bill on the ammo. I would be on the range until the truck was empty and then the next day would start. This would go on for a while. You are only as good as you train. If you want to be good on the weapon u own , find a source for ammo cheep, buy in bulk, get A LOT of magazines. When u go to the range train hard don't play, train like your life depends on it. O by the way try to find a range you can draw from the holster and train like hell
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Old July 9, 2017, 10:46 AM   #125
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My Dad, who was a front line solder in Europe in WW2, said this about the hand-held full autos used by the German army, "If they missed you with the first shot, you were probably safe, because recoil caused all the other shots to go high." I suspect that newer full autos are more effective, but I don't know.
It depends on the gun, cartridge, shooter. I have trained with and carried full auto weapons for decades. A belt fed machine gun needs to be in a fixture to be the most effective. AR's are wonderful but would limit the distance to 15 yards on full auto. H&K UMP's I hate while MP5's are wonderful to shoot.

I really see no use for full auto outside of a belt fed machine gun in a military context. A good rifleman with a good semi auto can lay down withering aimed fire when properly trained.
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