Bullet Deflection & Potential for Unintentional Kills

Double Naught Spy · April 5, 2016, 01:33 PM

I saw this video a few years ago and was reminded of it recently after having a similar experience. That is, being surprised at how much the trajectory of a bullet can change when passing through an animal. The concern is that animal animal, not anywhere near the original target trajectory, may be wounded or killed as a result. You can skip to about 3:30 and the shot comes at 3:45. Note how the bullet impacts the dirt well up and to the right of the hog by the juniper tree.

Michael May's video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-94O8o0X-6s

I had a similar experience as well. In both cases, we were shooting at hog and from well elevated position where the expected result of a pass-thru is a round impacting the dirt behind the hog. I can't comment on Michael May's video above in terms of there being a change of elevation, but the windage deflection was significant. In my case, the defection was both in elevation and windage.

My hog was located approximate 18' below my shooting position. I was in a tower blind and shooting down hill. There is a berm behind the hog to catch water that runs down the hill. The hog is near the low spot between the hill and the berm and the bullet impact up on the side of the berm and well to the right of the hog.

My video:
https://youtu.be/htJmdTvp9vA

The shot hit the hog at the base of the ear, clipped the rear of the skull, and penetrated the neck vertebrae before exiting lower and further back on the neck on the other side, but at least part of the bullet deflected high and right, impacting the berm.

For me and doing hog control efforts on client/host properties, hunting around livestock isn't uncommon. It seems to be getting more common as the hog population grows and as the hogs take refuge in cattle herds (and not just for me). I don't have a problem with hunting near or through cattle, but it is important that the targeted hog be chosen wisely, especially given the potential for deflection.

Some folks don't hunt around livestock, and I get that, but this isn't just relevant to those of us who do. This is also relevant to those who hunt wildlife where there are strict tag/bag limits, and an accidental pass-thru, even an indirect deflection resulting in the killing of a second animal is frowned upon by game officials.

Hopefully, this information will be helpful to other hunters when it comes time to pull the trigger.

reynolds357 · April 5, 2016, 09:06 PM

It happens. The new breed of tough, deep penetrating bullets raises the potential to see this happen. If you are really worried about it, switch to Berger Hunting bullets. They basically explode in a controlled manner. They are good hog bullets.

Double Naught Spy · April 5, 2016, 09:16 PM

LOL, that was a Berger VLD-Hunting 130 gr. round!

It isn't so much a worry as much as it is a valid concern. A lot of hunters simply don't subscribe to the energy dump concept promoted by Berger and a few other companies that market frangible ammo for larger game. They aren't apt to use frangible ammo. Sometimes, frangible ammo doesn't stay in the body. The point is that if something leaves the body of the target, there is no assurance that it will be traveling along the original trajectory.

nomad636 · April 5, 2016, 09:43 PM

This is a very real phenomenon. This past Nov. a few of us went on an exotics hunt. One of my friends shot a Scimitar Oryx. 385yds with a 7mm STW. The bull oryx he shot was broadside. The shot placement was perfect. The round changed trajectory in the cavity and exited towards the rear of the animal. Upon exiting it struck a calf scimitar oryx that was approx 40yds diagonal. Needless to say... It killed the calf too. Was was a $3,500 hunt turned into a $7,000 hunt instantly. I'll upload pictures tomorrow when I'm at my computer and not my iPhone.

Double Naught Spy · April 5, 2016, 10:22 PM

WOW.

nomad636 · April 6, 2016, 08:49 AM

Ok now I'm at my computer. I have uploaded 3 pictures. The picture with the man holding the horns of the Oryx shows the bull oryx he intended to shoot. Looking closely at the photograph the bullet hit the bull a little high but still right in the boiler room. Not a bad shot for 385yds. The other two pictures show the calf oryx that was hit. As you can see the projectile barely grazed the top of its neck but it fell dead as a stone. It actually died quicker than the bull did. We have no clue how a simple grazing of the neck killed the calf.... but it sure did. The bull was at a dead broadside shot. No quartering at all. The calf was diagonally behind the bull about 40yds, but no where near where the projectile should have gone. Regardless, as you can see.......... it pays to be mindful of anything within 180degrees behind the intended target.

Mobuck · April 6, 2016, 08:50 AM

I have on two occasions killed two deer with one shot. Fortunately both times I had tags for both animals so not a big deal but certainly not in the plan.
Both times the animals were quite close together-in fact so close I wasn't able to discern the second deer's presence. One was a 7mmRem mag and the other a 30/06--both quite capable of full penetration with adequate remaining energy to easily kill the second animal.
From these experiences, I learned to be far more aware of the target animal and take more time to ensure that no other animal is within a 45* angle in the background.
Follow the rule: KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND.

nomad636 · April 6, 2016, 08:53 AM

The lower wound that you see in the bull was from stabbing his heart with a knife... as he hadn't expired by the time we got to him.

math teacher · April 6, 2016, 01:57 PM

This can more graphically be seen with a pass through from an arrow. If you hit bone it may exit in a completely different direction. Twice I have had shots that looked like they skipped off the back except the deer soon fell dead. Watch closely on the archery hunting videos and you will often see the arrow exit in a new direction. Bullets do the same thing, but you can seldom see it.

Double Naught Spy · April 6, 2016, 03:18 PM

mt, that is great, but how about posting links to such videos. There are literally thousands and thousands of archery videos online. It would seem a bit overwhelming to just start randomly watching videos until you found one that showed an arrow that deflected.

However, there is one significant difference. A deflected bullet is apt to do harm at much longer distances.

math teacher · April 6, 2016, 09:54 PM

Double Naught, I was referring to programs such as on the Sportsman's channel. If you watch many of them you will observe what I meant. It is much easier to see with an arrow. I agree that a bullet can go a lot further. I wonder where some of mine have gone. However I once shot a deer with an arrow that was downhill from me in open logging. To my surprise upon exiting the arrow deflected steeply upward and sailed on into the canyon for about another 150 yards.

Double Naught Spy · April 7, 2016, 02:43 AM

Okay, so no actual examples other than a suggestion to watch a lot of TV.

buck460XVR · April 8, 2016, 11:27 AM

There are about 6 million deer shot every year in the U.S with firearms. Outta those 6 million deer shot, I guessing about 10-12 million rounds were expended to kill them. Add to that, the bear, elk, hogs and exotics that are shot. Now we are talking what, 20 million rounds? I'd be surprised that every year, there aren't dozens of examples of bullets doing crazy things before, during and after entering a game animal.

April 5, 2016, 01:33 PM	#1
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Bullet Deflection & Potential for Unintentional Kills I saw this video a few years ago and was reminded of it recently after having a similar experience. That is, being surprised at how much the trajectory of a bullet can change when passing through an animal. The concern is that animal animal, not anywhere near the original target trajectory, may be wounded or killed as a result. You can skip to about 3:30 and the shot comes at 3:45. Note how the bullet impacts the dirt well up and to the right of the hog by the juniper tree. Michael May's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-94O8o0X-6s I had a similar experience as well. In both cases, we were shooting at hog and from well elevated position where the expected result of a pass-thru is a round impacting the dirt behind the hog. I can't comment on Michael May's video above in terms of there being a change of elevation, but the windage deflection was significant. In my case, the defection was both in elevation and windage. My hog was located approximate 18' below my shooting position. I was in a tower blind and shooting down hill. There is a berm behind the hog to catch water that runs down the hill. The hog is near the low spot between the hill and the berm and the bullet impact up on the side of the berm and well to the right of the hog. My video: https://youtu.be/htJmdTvp9vA The shot hit the hog at the base of the ear, clipped the rear of the skull, and penetrated the neck vertebrae before exiting lower and further back on the neck on the other side, but at least part of the bullet deflected high and right, impacting the berm. For me and doing hog control efforts on client/host properties, hunting around livestock isn't uncommon. It seems to be getting more common as the hog population grows and as the hogs take refuge in cattle herds (and not just for me). I don't have a problem with hunting near or through cattle, but it is important that the targeted hog be chosen wisely, especially given the potential for deflection. Some folks don't hunt around livestock, and I get that, but this isn't just relevant to those of us who do. This is also relevant to those who hunt wildlife where there are strict tag/bag limits, and an accidental pass-thru, even an indirect deflection resulting in the killing of a second animal is frowned upon by game officials. Hopefully, this information will be helpful to other hunters when it comes time to pull the trigger. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

April 5, 2016, 09:16 PM	#3
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	LOL, that was a Berger VLD-Hunting 130 gr. round! It isn't so much a worry as much as it is a valid concern. A lot of hunters simply don't subscribe to the energy dump concept promoted by Berger and a few other companies that market frangible ammo for larger game. They aren't apt to use frangible ammo. Sometimes, frangible ammo doesn't stay in the body. The point is that if something leaves the body of the target, there is no assurance that it will be traveling along the original trajectory. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

April 5, 2016, 09:43 PM	#4
nomad636 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2015 Location: Arlington Texas Posts: 126	This is a very real phenomenon. This past Nov. a few of us went on an exotics hunt. One of my friends shot a Scimitar Oryx. 385yds with a 7mm STW. The bull oryx he shot was broadside. The shot placement was perfect. The round changed trajectory in the cavity and exited towards the rear of the animal. Upon exiting it struck a calf scimitar oryx that was approx 40yds diagonal. Needless to say... It killed the calf too. Was was a $3,500 hunt turned into a $7,000 hunt instantly. I'll upload pictures tomorrow when I'm at my computer and not my iPhone. __________________ Never go to war with a man who can end you from another zip code. Remember that just because you are out of sight... doesn't mean you are out of range. Unless of course.... you can end him from a further distance. Last edited by nomad636; April 5, 2016 at 09:54 PM.

April 5, 2016, 10:22 PM	#5
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	WOW. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

April 6, 2016, 08:53 AM	#8
nomad636 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2015 Location: Arlington Texas Posts: 126	The lower wound that you see in the bull was from stabbing his heart with a knife... as he hadn't expired by the time we got to him. __________________ Never go to war with a man who can end you from another zip code. Remember that just because you are out of sight... doesn't mean you are out of range. Unless of course.... you can end him from a further distance.

April 5, 2016, 09:06 PM	#2
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	It happens. The new breed of tough, deep penetrating bullets raises the potential to see this happen. If you are really worried about it, switch to Berger Hunting bullets. They basically explode in a controlled manner. They are good hog bullets.

April 6, 2016, 08:50 AM	#7
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	I have on two occasions killed two deer with one shot. Fortunately both times I had tags for both animals so not a big deal but certainly not in the plan. Both times the animals were quite close together-in fact so close I wasn't able to discern the second deer's presence. One was a 7mmRem mag and the other a 30/06--both quite capable of full penetration with adequate remaining energy to easily kill the second animal. From these experiences, I learned to be far more aware of the target animal and take more time to ensure that no other animal is within a 45* angle in the background. Follow the rule: KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND.

April 6, 2016, 01:57 PM	#9
math teacher Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2012 Location: Southwest WA Coast Posts: 558	This can more graphically be seen with a pass through from an arrow. If you hit bone it may exit in a completely different direction. Twice I have had shots that looked like they skipped off the back except the deer soon fell dead. Watch closely on the archery hunting videos and you will often see the arrow exit in a new direction. Bullets do the same thing, but you can seldom see it.

April 6, 2016, 03:18 PM	#10
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	mt, that is great, but how about posting links to such videos. There are literally thousands and thousands of archery videos online. It would seem a bit overwhelming to just start randomly watching videos until you found one that showed an arrow that deflected. However, there is one significant difference. A deflected bullet is apt to do harm at much longer distances. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

April 6, 2016, 09:54 PM	#11
math teacher Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2012 Location: Southwest WA Coast Posts: 558	Double Naught, I was referring to programs such as on the Sportsman's channel. If you watch many of them you will observe what I meant. It is much easier to see with an arrow. I agree that a bullet can go a lot further. I wonder where some of mine have gone. However I once shot a deer with an arrow that was downhill from me in open logging. To my surprise upon exiting the arrow deflected steeply upward and sailed on into the canyon for about another 150 yards.

April 7, 2016, 02:43 AM	#12
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	Okay, so no actual examples other than a suggestion to watch a lot of TV. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

April 8, 2016, 11:27 AM	#13
buck460XVR Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2006 Posts: 4,342	There are about 6 million deer shot every year in the U.S with firearms. Outta those 6 million deer shot, I guessing about 10-12 million rounds were expended to kill them. Add to that, the bear, elk, hogs and exotics that are shot. Now we are talking what, 20 million rounds? I'd be surprised that every year, there aren't dozens of examples of bullets doing crazy things before, during and after entering a game animal.