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Old June 2, 2021, 08:23 AM   #51
JustJake
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Originally Posted by JustJake View Post
Hands-down, getting the BUG into the fight will always be faster than the extra seconds it takes to reload your primary weapon.
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Dude,....
This is based on?
Ah, dude, ... pay attention. We tried this last summer at a range. It ain't rocket science.

You need a IPSC-type timer (or a stop watch), and two guys.

One guy's the "reloader." He's got one gun with a loaded mag inserted, and one spare mag, along with the appropriate holster and belt carrier for the spare mag. The other guy has two guns of his choice and the holsters to draw from. Weapons are drawn from concealment. The "bad guy" is a silhouette target 5-7yds away.

Time both shooters from the draw on the beep (or on command, if using a stop watch).

The reloader draws and shoots to slide-lock (or to an empty cylinder if you're trying this drill with a revolver, but it's the same idea). The timer stops on the first shot after he reloads. What's his time?

Then do the same with the "Two Guns" guy. Time starts on the beep when he draws his primary roscoe. It stops on the first shot from his BUG. What's his time?

Compare and contrast ... and, mostly, edumacate yourself. You can thank me later.
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While we're here, can we address the fact that after studying thousands of citizen self defense shooting John Corriea has seen exactly ZERO instances in which the fight lasted long enough to require a reload?
Interesting factoid, but irrelevant to the BUG topic/discussion that was triggered by the OP's original post. You may want to re-read it.

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Old June 2, 2021, 05:31 PM   #52
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Ah, dude, ... pay attention. We tried this last summer at a range. It ain't rocket science.

You need a IPSC-type timer (or a stop watch), and two guys.

One guy's the "reloader." He's got one gun with a loaded mag inserted, and one spare mag, along with the appropriate holster and belt carrier for the spare mag. The other guy has two guns of his choice and the holsters to draw from. Weapons are drawn from concealment. The "bad guy" is a silhouette target 5-7yds away.

Time both shooters from the draw on the beep (or on command, if using a stop watch).

The reloader draws and shoots to slide-lock (or to an empty cylinder if you're trying this drill with a revolver, but it's the same idea). The timer stops on the first shot after he reloads. What's his time?

Then do the same with the "Two Guns" guy. Time starts on the beep when he draws his primary roscoe. It stops on the first shot from his BUG. What's his time?
At least you have a basis for your assertion. Now I'm curious as to your sample size.
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Old June 2, 2021, 05:33 PM   #53
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I carry a small pocket gun on most days. Most of the time in a small light weight holster. It is so easy to EDC all day every day. And I am, what I think is skilled at shooting them. No Pro by any means, but like someone that loves to shoot pool, or play golf and does it often.
But that skill did not come from fear of wanting to protect myself, it actually came from the fact that I just have FUN shooting them. It is enjoyable for me, challenging. I like the friendly competition with the group of Pocket gun shooters that I have belonged with for so many years. Can I do fast reloads, run to different positions, shoot behind different obstacles etc. No. do not care to. Mostly just practice drawing and hitting multiple targets as fast as possible.
Pocket guns and snub nose revolvers. Just fun guns to shoot had have a great hour of relaxing fun or a day at the range. The fact is, I just love shooting. Many people shoot mainly for defense training. Some do not really even like it. Different strokes is fine with me.

So, you're basically LARPing with a real gun.

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Do you have a source for these figures?
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Old June 2, 2021, 05:36 PM   #54
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Old June 3, 2021, 12:55 PM   #55
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Chart says: 3-4 shots usually fired.
We are to assume that is to stop one attacker? And only 1 out of 3-4 bullets fired is a hit?

Lets entertain the possibility of two attackers. Sticking with 3-4 shots fired, that could increase to 8 shots fired (two attackers) with only 2 hits. (Using numbers from chart).

Applying that data, 8 rounds fired to hit each attacker 1 time, just sticking with the chart
While I don't agree with all the findings, another study shows the average number of hits to incapacitate is about 2
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

Using that 1 hit (out of 3-4 rounds fired, from the chart) and that the average # hits to incapacitate is 2 - we are potentially coming up short if we started with just 8 rounds.

Of course, some people are tougher to stop than others and my require more than two hits to stop, several more:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/vi...e-hes-stopped/

That chart of statistics and other data leads us to the conclusion that it would be prudent to have more than 8 rounds available.
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Old June 3, 2021, 04:16 PM   #56
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The simple answer is because I can if Iwant to .
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Old June 3, 2021, 04:55 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
Chart says: 3-4 shots usually fired.
We are to assume that is to stop one attacker? And only 1 out of 3-4 bullets fired is a hit?

Lets entertain the possibility of two attackers. Sticking with 3-4 shots fired, that could increase to 8 shots fired (two attackers) with only 2 hits. (Using numbers from chart).

Applying that data, 8 rounds fired to hit each attacker 1 time, just sticking with the chart
While I don't agree with all the findings, another study shows the average number of hits to incapacitate is about 2
https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alte...stopping-power

Using that 1 hit (out of 3-4 rounds fired, from the chart) and that the average # hits to incapacitate is 2 - we are potentially coming up short if we started with just 8 rounds.

Of course, some people are tougher to stop than others and my require more than two hits to stop, several more:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/vi...e-hes-stopped/

That chart of statistics and other data leads us to the conclusion that it would be prudent to have more than 8 rounds available.
Too much focus on the chart. I posted it just as a base for what I believe is a realistic attack, but just a Base. Doe not mean that myself or any of my club members do not do all kinds of drills. We do. And we shoot mostly Steel on Weekends.
You can design your own basic chart. I have had that one for years. And like anything else, I set goals. Lol, when I first shot a pocket gun, I was crap. My first goal was just to hit the target at 7 yds. That was a long time ago and thousands of rounds. I loved the challange they gave from the first time I picked one up and fired it. I still remember that day like it was yesterday. My first thought was wow, that was horrible. My finger hurt and I literally almost did miss the target. Very high right to the top of the target. I remember I was so pissed off that I went to the range every single day for a month. Never at that time did I realize I was venturing into a new hobby which I love.
And it SUCKS now that ammo is so hard to get and so expensive.
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Old June 3, 2021, 05:37 PM   #58
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First concealed carry class I went to the instructor carried in an ankle holster. He pointed out that if you have been knocked to the ground the ankle carry may be easier than some of the more traditional, depending on how you land.
He also did point out your pants need to be loose, no peg-leg jeans.
That reminds me of a scene from the movie Red Dragon I saw a long time ago. I think the police officer dropped his weapon or had it taken away from him after being stabbed by Hannibal and when he fell, he went for his handgun in his ankle holster.
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Old June 3, 2021, 05:48 PM   #59
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Too much focus on the chart. I posted it just as a base for what I believe is a realistic attack, but just a Base....
You can design your own basic chart. I have had that one for years.

But where did the figures come from?


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Never at that time did I realize I was venturing into a new hobby which I love.
Some of us aren't gamers
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Old June 3, 2021, 07:26 PM   #60
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Getting back to the OP question. Want some suggestions? Here is a nice little holster you can wear IWB and I like the clip for shorts that do have a belt. A Remora.



Here are a couple of holsters that I love to just carry OWB. DeSantis. I also have them for my Micro 9mm's. They are very Light and ride very close to the body. (Kahr CW380 and Beretta Pico)



My 642 in a trigger Holster



Here is a little holster that I bought when I first started shooting the small guns. It is amazingly versitile. IWB, OWB, Between Belt. and on and on. Cost is about $20.00





LCR



And if looking for advice. I would recommend the possibility of a small 22.cal trainer. With the cost of ammo now, mine have really paid off in keeping my skills honed. Ruger LCR22 and LCP22

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Old June 3, 2021, 11:31 PM   #61
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Since the OP has a interest in the Pocket gun, Here is one of many tips.


https://www.police1.com/police-produ...ZhUwP5GinAvX1/
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Old June 3, 2021, 11:52 PM   #62
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backup

If you find yourself in an incident where you NEED a backup gun, you are in a world of hurt. Thus reliability and ease of use are paramount. The small 5- shot .38's snubs endure because they fill those parameters well. In addition they are easy to carry. They are not easy to shoot well at any sort of distance.
I'd lean towards stainless or an alloy, as backups get carried in sweaty places.

I've not worked with an ankle holster but have heard many negative comments. I was surprised to hear a name trainer comment positively on them, but I'm not going to try it. I'd suggest that a backup needs to be accessible to either hand. Force on force training and real world shooting analysis seems to indicate that a percentage of wounds occur to the gun/gun hand. Having a second gun available to the off hand seems a good idea.
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Old June 4, 2021, 12:33 AM   #63
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Hypothetical
1. You are armed with main and backup guns.
2. You get in a shooting scrape. BUG not needed.
3. It will be investigated and your main gun confiscated as evidence.

Q. If you are not charged, will you get your BUG back promptly or will it join your main gun in the evidence locker for an indefinite stay?
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Old June 4, 2021, 06:57 AM   #64
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Too much focus on the chart. I posted it just as a base for what I believe is a realistic attack, .
"Too much focus" on the chart you posted.
So, two aggressors is not realistic.
Stop interpreting the chart that way, its not realistic. LOL.

I flutily suggest that if one ever "ups" their carry based on where they are going, whatever they "up" it to is what they should strive to carry anyway.

If one is comfortable with a 5 shot snub in GoodAreaVille they should feel confident with it wherever; if they don't rationalizations & perceived psychic ability in use.
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Old June 4, 2021, 07:27 AM   #65
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I flutily suggest that if one ever "ups" their carry based on where they are going, whatever they "up" it to is what they should strive to carry anyway.
You're not wrong.

The only thing I would add is it if you feel the need to up your carry you shouldn't go in the first place.
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Old June 4, 2021, 07:35 AM   #66
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I carry every day started in 1982 .
Pulled it two times .
NO ONE WAS SHOT THANK YOU JESUS
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Old June 4, 2021, 07:51 AM   #67
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I just wish I had the Magic 8 Ball that some seem to have, so I could know what gun and how many rounds Ill need during the day, or any encounter I might run into, so I can make sure to bring the right one and enough ammo. Must be nice.

Your gun is no different than your wallet, watch, knife, flashlight, lighter, etc, that you carry every day. If you're going to carry a gun every day, why not carry the gun and its accessories, that offer you the best chance to succeed should you need it?

You arent the one who gets to pick the time, place, or situation, so you get to run what you brung. Hope its enough, and hope you're well versed with it.

Back ups and spares are always good too, and all sorts of reasons to have one along.
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Old June 4, 2021, 11:17 AM   #68
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I have never been in a gun fight among the general public. I doubt many here have. As such when we discuss these thing's we speak of what we think might happen, not what actually may happen. I think in the vast majority of case's when the good guy's gun come's out the bad guy is looking for cover or to leave. He did not come into that situation hoping to be shot. Take a shot and my bet is his first reaction is duck! Second is get the hell out. Most bad guys actually don't go in with a gun looking for a gun fight, they go in with a gun to intimidate the victims! The good guy with the gun seems to think he's ready for a gun fight but I assure you he doesn't want shot anymore than the bad guy. There is only one way to know what will happen in a gun fight and what will happen may change with the next gun fight. I believe the best way to come out on top is the look for a way out before you commit to shooting! You may not save anyone else there that way, but at the same time everyone else also has the option of carrying a gun, I am not their protector! being in a gun fight may sound cool to many people but what ever the out come, it can be very final for one or both the fighter's. Live to fight another day! Bad guy's with gun's would give intimidation with a gun more though if they knew everyone there might have a gun!
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Old June 4, 2021, 11:46 AM   #69
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I have never been in a gun fight among the general public. I doubt many here have. As such when we discuss these thing's we speak of what we think might happen, not what actually may happen. I think in the vast majority of case's when the good guy's gun come's out the bad guy is looking for cover or to leave. He did not come into that situation hoping to be shot. Take a shot and my bet is his first reaction is duck! Second is get the hell out. Most bad guys actually don't go in with a gun looking for a gun fight, they go in with a gun to intimidate the victims! The good guy with the gun seems to think he's ready for a gun fight but I assure you he doesn't want shot anymore than the bad guy. There is only one way to know what will happen in a gun fight and what will happen may change with the next gun fight. I believe the best way to come out on top is the look for a way out before you commit to shooting! You may not save anyone else there that way, but at the same time everyone else also has the option of carrying a gun, I am not their protector! being in a gun fight may sound cool to many people but what ever the out come, it can be very final for one or both the fighter's. Live to fight another day! Bad guy's with gun's would give intimidation with a gun more though if they knew everyone there might have a gun!
The best way to look at it. Are you going to live another day.
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Old June 4, 2021, 01:42 PM   #70
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The best way to look at it. Are you going to live another day.
I plan on it!
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Old June 4, 2021, 06:41 PM   #71
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The only thing I would add is it if you feel the need to up your carry you shouldn't go in the first place.


Dude, seriously?

That sort of premise is what causes folks to self-censor their movements in public areas (which by definition should be safe anyway, like parks or shopping malls) and self-limits their freedom to travel about their business as they wish.

So exactly the opposite is true.

As your comings & goings into certain areas might increase the risk of assaultive threats, ... yeah, you might need to "up your carry" with a second gun or multiple reloads.

The main point is: if you do choose to "up your carry" loadout, just be sure you've trained and practiced with it.

The focus isn't avoidance. It's preparation.
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Old June 5, 2021, 03:18 AM   #72
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Dude, seriously?
Yes dude seriously.

It's Always. Every. Single. Time. better to avoid a criminal confrontation than it is to win one.

Daniel-San best way avoid punch, no be there.


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That sort of premise is what causes folks to self-censor their movements in public areas (which by definition should be safe anyway, like parks or shopping malls) and self-limits their freedom to travel about their business as they wish.
Public spaces should be safe and generally they are but that's not what we're talking about is it? We're talking about going somewhere that there's enough expectation of trouble that you feel the need to carry a bigger gun or more ammunition than the norm.

If you're that concerned why in the hell would you go in the first place?

I've been involved (I was ducking not shooting) in three shooting incidents. Every single one of them if I had known beforehand I'd have gone somewhere else.
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Old June 5, 2021, 04:49 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
"Too much focus" on the chart you posted.
So, two aggressors is not realistic.
Stop interpreting the chart that way, its not realistic. LOL.



I flutily suggest that if one ever "ups" their carry based on where they are going, whatever they "up" it to is what they should strive to carry anyway.

If one is comfortable with a 5 shot snub in GoodAreaVille they should feel confident with it wherever; if they don't rationalizations & perceived psychic ability in use.
You mock The Chart but it is very realistic and when I said look beyond the chart for practical defense shooting you missed the point.
It says quite a bit about of info in the real world. How fast a attacker can travel at you, would mean training to draw fast and be focused. Regardless of if he has a weapon, or a knife etc.
Low light conditions would mean Situational Awareness especially at night, etc.
Lol, if it gets to the point that the world is your realistic world where every where I go I will need to carry like a cop with a large duty gun, back up and extra magazine etc. I will just stay home every day. How about you show us the real every day Statistics that show why every one should carry like you do with your fire power. I am just asking.
Ok, if people want to carry a 5 shot Snubbie in "Goodville" is fine, then why even Go to Badville"? Why not just stay out? I mean, I usually do not head off to the Hood on a Saturday night looking for a good time. And where I live, I have yet in decades ever seen shooting where someone defending themselves had even shot their firearm more than a few times at the most, and that is rare. Never seen where anyone had a shootout with more than one aggressor. (Possibly in the hood). (And by the way, those that train with a snubbie do so at multiple targets as well) Should every EDC also wear a Vest? By you logic they should. Sorry, but I not buy into all the "What ifs", that would be enough to drive a person insane.

Situational awareness, avoiding confrontations might actually trump carrying any firearm.

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Old June 5, 2021, 05:23 AM   #74
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Old June 5, 2021, 05:25 AM   #75
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Situational awareness, avoiding confrontations might actually trump carrying any firearm.
Truer words have rarely been spoken.
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