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Old May 17, 2021, 06:57 PM   #26
Shadow9mm
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the article is a load of garbage. They are WAY off the the 45 GAP. Per my instructor at Glock Armorers school years back it was designed for the non US market. Mainly ones where military cartridges (45acp) cannot be owned by the general population. It really has a lot going for it. It just did not take off in the US market.

In addition one cannot only look to the US market for which calibers are going obsolete.

25ACP tons of saturday night specials
32ACP tons of saturday night specials
41Mag not sure
40S&W still going strong
32 H&R Mag not sure
45 GAP not intended for the US market
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Old May 18, 2021, 01:33 AM   #27
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25 ACP many Baby Browning's and copies, TPH, etc. ( not counting zinc guns)
Marginal but better than nothing.

32 ACP many PPK/ PP, HSC, CZ, Bobcats, Seacamp, NAA's, Kel Tec P32 etc. etc. An effective round with hot European style ammo, passes FBI gel test with ease.

In any case: NOT GOING AWAY ( at least not before just about any other popular caliber).

Fictional characters should have no bearing on carry choices, that includes fictional British agents....the PP/K series was in use decades before the creation of b0nd.

As for .40 my dislike is not irrational. I remember when KB's were common due to cost cutting engineering in the 1990's, even when that was fixed, the .40 in HP usually has less penetration in gel than a 9mm in HP...so why bother? Even still, many love it, so it is not even close to being obsolete.

Last edited by IZZY; May 18, 2021 at 01:51 AM.
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Old May 18, 2021, 05:54 AM   #28
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“Field and Stream will be obsolete before most of these cartridges.”

Until this thread I didn’t even know Field and Stream was still a thing.
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Old May 18, 2021, 06:40 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IZZY View Post
the .40 in HP usually has less penetration in gel than a 9mm in HP...so why bother? Even still, many love it, so it is not even close to being obsolete.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/

HST 124+P 18.3''/.66
124 PDX+P 19.6''/.52
Golden Saber 147 gr. 16.4''/.63

HST 180 gr. 18.5''/.72
165 PDX-1 14.6''/.74
Golden saber 180 gr. 13.8''/.82

Three popular examples where your penetration generalization is accurate 2/3 times. 9mm did penetrate more than 40 S&W

However, in all three examples 40 S&W expanded to a larger recovered diameter.

To answer the question "why bother"? Diameter.
My most carried pistol is a Glock 23 with 180 HST, if you made the case that I'd be as well armed with my Glock 19 and HST 124+P ... I wouldn't argue.
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Old May 18, 2021, 09:13 AM   #30
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I can't even begin to say how many similar articles I've read since I started following the gun press in the mid 1970s...

A lot.

And in most cases, virtually all of the cartridges that were proclaimed to be on death's door with both feet on a banana peel... are still with us.
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Old May 18, 2021, 05:28 PM   #31
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CDW4ME,

Lucky Gunner is where I got the stats as well they did some great gel testing.

Many a PD and the FBI have gone back to 9mm for cost, recoil, and slightly higher capacity...but the .40 is not going to "disappear". For example, Look at the resurgence of 10mm as a "woods" pistol .40 will get the job done with the right loads, and even 9mm has some that should be avoided.

All rounds mentioned by them will be available until smokeless powder is simply not made anymore.
Heck, you can still find .455 Webley online...
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Old May 19, 2021, 06:21 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IZZY View Post
CDW4ME,

Lucky Gunner is where I got the stats as well they did some great gel testing.

Many a PD and the FBI have gone back to 9mm for cost, recoil, and slightly higher capacity...but the .40 is not going to "disappear". For example, Look at the resurgence of 10mm as a "woods" pistol .40 will get the job done with the right loads, and even 9mm has some that should be avoided.

All rounds mentioned by them will be available until smokeless powder is simply not made anymore.
Heck, you can still find .455 Webley online...
Ever watch the slow mo video for any of those tests?
Difference in how high the gel is lifted off the table is interesting, watch a 9mm/40 test in slow mo and gel maybe lifted to 3'' off table.
357 Sig HST and 10mm 155 XTP deliver much more lift.

Gel is good for comparison, but IMO not reflective of the effect of increased energy.
I can find 38 special and 357 Mag with near the same expansion and penetration, yet 357 mag delivers 2x the energy.
Some will generalize that energy at handgun levels doesn't matter.
The 10mm 155 XTP that expands to about .65 in gel (in those tests) made 1 1/4'' hole in tissue when I shot a deer; so, the gel result not match what I documented in tissue.
Gives me the opinion that gel is not completely reflective of 357 Sig and 10mm potential.
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Old May 20, 2021, 08:09 PM   #33
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Quote:
Gel is good for comparison, but IMO not reflective of the effect of increased energy.
I can find 38 special and 357 Mag with near the same expansion and penetration, yet 357 mag delivers 2x the energy.
Some will generalize that energy at handgun levels doesn't matter.
The 10mm 155 XTP that expands to about .65 in gel (in those tests) made 1 1/4'' hole in tissue when I shot a deer; so, the gel result not match what I documented in tissue.
Gives me the opinion that gel is not completely reflective of 357 Sig and 10mm potential.
Yup
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Old May 22, 2021, 10:24 PM   #34
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I never wrote that gel was the only thing to measure against. Many of us use it regardless, knowing it is imperfect, simply because it will help eliminate the worst rounds, those to be avoided.
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Old May 23, 2021, 01:30 AM   #35
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Back in the bad old days, I used to use wet phone books to test rounds. Like gel it's imperfect but it did give a means of comparison between loads.

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Old May 23, 2021, 09:26 AM   #36
IZZY
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and pine boards was another "old" way to test potential lethality...



here is an "opinion" article that says the 30-06 "is dead", please feel free to laugh out loud.

https://www.americanhunter.org/artic...30-06-is-dead/
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Old May 23, 2021, 10:18 AM   #37
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.40 is dead? Someone tell Glock so they can stop producing the new Gen 5 models 22, 23, and 27.
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Old May 23, 2021, 12:26 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IZZY View Post
I never wrote that gel was the only thing to measure against. Many of us use it regardless, knowing it is imperfect, simply because it will help eliminate the worst rounds, those to be avoided.
Not to imply you did.

Lucky Gunner testing is useful for comparison, as you point out.

An example I was referencing:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10m...tic-gel-tests/
Click the pic of expanded 155 XTP bullets and the option of Watch High Speed Video:
https://www.luckygunner.com/10mm-aut...rounds#geltest
On that page is a 22 second video, lower right.
10mm 155 XTP lifts the block off the table down to at least 12'' mark on ruler.
Compare that with 9mm / or 380 loads, noticeable difference (reduction) in how much the block is lifted off the table.
Some may think that increased energy doesn't matter, but I documented 1 1/4'' holes in deer from that bullet and it only expands to .65 in gel.

Another example:
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

Near identical performance in gel, looking just at penetration and expanded diameter...
4'' barrel 38 special Rem 158 LSWCHP+P - 13.4'' / .56
4'' barrel 357 mag Rem 125 SJHP - 13.6'' / .54
If one thinks additional KE doesn't matter then those two bullets have equivalent ASAP potential, amiright.
Same performance in gel but ...
38 special load has 298# KE
357 Mag load has 602# KE

IMO the gel result may not reflect additional ASAP potential of 357 mag vs 38 special.

Same applies to 357 Sig vs 9mm and 10mm vs 40 S&W.
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Old May 23, 2021, 01:21 PM   #39
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I forget which show it was that I watched, might even have been Mythbusters, but they were shooting a gel block that was about a foot square and about 4 feet long.

When they shot it with a .44 Magnum, it blew then entire block off the table!

That's good enough for me!
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Old May 23, 2021, 02:12 PM   #40
Carl the Floor Walker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IZZY View Post
25 ACP many Baby Browning's and copies, TPH, etc. ( not counting zinc guns)
Marginal but better than nothing.

32 ACP many PPK/ PP, HSC, CZ, Bobcats, Seacamp, NAA's, Kel Tec P32 etc. etc. An effective round with hot European style ammo, passes FBI gel test with ease.

In any case: NOT GOING AWAY ( at least not before just about any other popular caliber).

Fictional characters should have no bearing on carry choices, that includes fictional British agents....the PP/K series was in use decades before the creation of b0nd.

As for .40 my dislike is not irrational. I remember when KB's were common due to cost cutting engineering in the 1990's, even when that was fixed, the .40 in HP usually has less penetration in gel than a 9mm in HP...so why bother? Even still, many love it, so it is not even close to being obsolete.
I think Claud Werner, the Tactical Professor would agree with the 32 ACP. And speaking of the small calibers he does a great job as featured in Lucky Gunner. In fact he carries one.

Don't buy into the internet myths that you have to have a large heavy gun to carry for EDC. And no one is going to volunteer to step in front of a 32 for example, reason, because they would Fear Death.All of a sudden it would NOT be a joke or taken lightly. Those that underrate them would be making a huge mistake. In fact we have a saying down in the South, stepping in front of one in REAL life, the big talker would actually loose his grits before going down.
Hot, Humid Summer coming on and the P32. will get plenty of carry time. And pity the poor bad guy that wants to step in front of a one. 8 fast rounds of this stuff it nothing to sneeze at.
And the millions of Americans buying and carrying Pocket guns will always be a incentive for Gun Manufacturer to continue to develop even better ballistics. They know a money maker when they see one.



And carrying a small light weight P32 is sure a lot more pleasant than a anchor in side a pair of shorts. Most people get it.

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; May 23, 2021 at 02:24 PM.
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Old May 23, 2021, 03:32 PM   #41
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When someone produces a 9mm pistol as small as the Kel Tec P32 that I recently bought, I wouldn't care as much if the .32acp died off. Until then....

I seriously doubt the .32acp is leaving us.
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Old May 24, 2021, 12:30 PM   #42
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Kahr PM9 carried in weak hand front pocket to supplement Glock 23 thats IWB; walking the dogs, bicycle ride, posting stuff people ignore , typical "good area" day.

Shame that Glock 23 is going to be obsolete. LOL
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Old May 25, 2021, 10:07 PM   #43
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I know the feeling, my carry guns will soon be obsolete as well...





You'd think that if ammo production were going to be halted for this obsolete cartridge then it would have happened already in favor of other cartridges which aren't obsolete, but then again, I'm not the sort of talented investigative journalist like the ones who post articles on Field & Stream, so what do I know?
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