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Old June 5, 2021, 06:36 AM   #76
CDW4ME
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Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker View Post
You mock The Chart but it is very realistic and when I said look beyond the chart for practical defense shooting you missed the point.
I'm not mocking the chart, I think you use the chart to justify what you carry.
I took the chart and entertained the realistic possibility of two attackers using the data, which showed the value of increased capacity.

I get the point alright.
Any benefit to me carrying a Shield/Glock 43/LCP/38 snub (lesser capacity guns I own) rather than a Glock 19/23 as a primary? No.
Any data that says I'd be better off carrying a lower capacity primary gun? LOL.
Is a Glock 43 or Kahr PM9 acceptable as a 2nd option (back-up)? yes it is.
I get the point, I just don't subscribe to the point you are trying to make.
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Old June 5, 2021, 07:23 AM   #77
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Things like those charts, the "rule of threes", etc, that are often thrown around and usually by those who choose the smaller guns and feel they have to justify why they carry it.

Hey, carry what you want, but the reality is, no matter where you are or might go, you have absolutely no idea as to what you might get, and you're going to have to deal with it as best you can with what you have.

Hopefully, its enough, and you're as good as you say with it in that sort of shooting environment. Having the gun is one thing, being realistically capable of deploying and using it without thought, is often something else.

Youre just hoping if something does go south, its going to fall into one of those "statistical" groups on a chart, and/or one of the narrow scenarios you always win in your mind.

If you're the least bit serious about this, I would think you would choose the gun that you shoot the best with and shoot the most in regular practice with, and from how you carry it (not just standing there, squeezing off the basics at bullseye or can). And then carry it every day.

Unless of course, you have one of those Magic 8 Balls.

Even then, my guess is you'll still choose the wrong gun.
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Old June 5, 2021, 07:28 AM   #78
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My newest backup is the Walther P22. It's only got 10 shots of ammo but if that's not enough I'd better be running in the other direction.

My primary is a S&W EZ 9. I can live with 8 shots. I carry extra mags with it.
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Old June 5, 2021, 09:26 AM   #79
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There is a 7-11 in my town that is on the corner that is ground zero of the worst neighborhood in town. When there's a drive by there no one is surprised. When the store gets robbed, no one is surprised. When a couple of bangers start shooting at each other at the gas pumps no one is surprised. Every time the place makes the news and they do a story about it on Fakebeast about half of the posters who respond say the same thing "When I go to THAT 7-11 I make sure I'm carrying a gun. The point I was trying to make earlier is "If that particular 7-11 is so bad you make a specific point of being armed BECAUSE you're going there maybe you need to go to a different 7-11.

I have three guns in my "carry rotation" a Glock 43, 26 & a 19. I carry the biggest of the three that I can effectively conceal based on how I'm dressed. Regardless of where I'm going. I always carry a reload because the magazine is the weak link. I've heard too many people talk about banging against the door getting out of their car and having the magazine disassemble itself or hitting the magazine release by mistake and losing the magazine to think it couldn't happen to me.

As I said earlier though I really think the odds are enough in my favor not to bother with a backup.
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Old June 5, 2021, 09:36 AM   #80
Carl the Floor Walker
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Originally Posted by Moonglum View Post
There is a 7-11 in my town that is on the corner that is ground zero of the worst neighborhood in town. When there's a drive by there no one is surprised. When the store gets robbed, no one is surprised. When a couple of bangers start shooting at each other at the gas pumps no one is surprised. Every time the place makes the news and they do a story about it on Fakebeast about half of the posters who respond say the same thing "When I go to THAT 7-11 I make sure I'm carrying a gun. The point I was trying to make earlier is "If that particular 7-11 is so bad you make a specific point of being armed BECAUSE you're going there maybe you need to go to a different 7-11.

I have three guns in my "carry rotation" a Glock 43, 26 & a 19. I carry the biggest of the three that I can effectively conceal based on how I'm dressed. Regardless of where I'm going. I always carry a reload because the magazine is the weak link. I've heard too many people talk about banging against the door getting out of their car and having the magazine disassemble itself or hitting the magazine release by mistake and losing the magazine to think it couldn't happen to me.

As I said earlier though I really think the odds are enough in my favor not to bother with a backup.
Good Point, and when you do go to the good 7/11, use situational awareness. Look inside, who is standing outside etc. At night going to a 7/11 is yet another time to be on guard and alert. Are there people just sitting in a car next to you etc. Use your instincts. Trust your instincts. Listen to them. If they give off a vibe or warning learn the discipline to obey them.


"Instincts are not some weird mystical power that are only found in the animal kingdom.

Gut instincts are defined as: an innate, typically fixed pattern of behavior in animals in response to certain stimuli.

We are born with instincts to help us survive. As much as we may pretend we are not, we are very much animals; why do we try to deny this??

5 Gut Instincts You Don’t Want to Ignore

https://www.lifehack.org/articles/li...nt-ignore.html

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Old June 5, 2021, 10:18 AM   #81
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My primary carry gun is a S&W shield c9, 8 round magazine. Came with an 8 round and a 7 round. bought an extra 8 rd when I bought the gun. I also have a Ruger P89 I carry once in a while, it has a 15 round magazine. Places I go don't generally have gangs or mafia groups or even Antifa or BLM waiting to do you in. What they do have is sick jerks that will use a gun to intimidate you to rob you but they are few and far between. I live about 120 mi from Portland, Ore. I never go there anymore! If for some reason I had to, I would carry the Ruger with a spare magazine, maybe two! I believe that it's easier to avoid trouble than fight your way out of it at least less dangerous. I spent 30 yrs driving road truck's mostly refers and have been into every hell hole in the US. Do it enough and you learn to survive! Never but one time pulled out a gun in those days, Union strike in Illinois and made to mistake of stopping and asking direction from one of them. Never did that again and just the sight of the gun stopped the guy in his tracks.

If you want to carry three back up guns I think your paranoia has got the better of you. Even if you lived in a place like Portland, Ore I'm certain the time you have trouble will be when you go looking for it. The idea that you have a right to go pretty much where you please is right but do it in the wrong place and you just may get into something you'd rather not have got into! We enter into only places we choose to enter for the most part.
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Old June 5, 2021, 04:27 PM   #82
jetinteriorguy
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Originally Posted by Carl the Floor Walker View Post
Good Point, and when you do go to the good 7/11, use situational awareness. Look inside, who is standing outside etc. At night going to a 7/11 is yet another time to be on guard and alert. Are there people just sitting in a car next to you etc. Use your instincts. Trust your instincts. Listen to them. If they give off a vibe or warning learn the discipline to obey them.


"Instincts are not some weird mystical power that are only found in the animal kingdom.

Gut instincts are defined as: an innate, typically fixed pattern of behavior in animals in response to certain stimuli.

We are born with instincts to help us survive. As much as we may pretend we are not, we are very much animals; why do we try to deny this??

5 Gut Instincts You Don’t Want to Ignore

https://www.lifehack.org/articles/li...nt-ignore.html
So, do you think any of these younguns walking around with their nose in their phone and earphones on has a single survival instinct buried anywhere deep inside?
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Old June 5, 2021, 07:20 PM   #83
Carl the Floor Walker
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Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
Things like those charts, the "rule of threes", etc, that are often thrown around and usually by those who choose the smaller guns and feel they have to justify why they carry it.

Hey, carry what you want, but the reality is, no matter where you are or might go, you have absolutely no idea as to what you might get, and you're going to have to deal with it as best you can with what you have.

Hopefully, its enough, and you're as good as you say with it in that sort of shooting environment. Having the gun is one thing, being realistically capable of deploying and using it without thought, is often something else.

Youre just hoping if something does go south, its going to fall into one of those "statistical" groups on a chart, and/or one of the narrow scenarios you always win in your mind.

If you're the least bit serious about this, I would think you would choose the gun that you shoot the best with and shoot the most in regular practice with, and from how you carry it (not just standing there, squeezing off the basics at bullseye or can). And then carry it every day.

Unless of course, you have one of those Magic 8 Balls.

Even then, my guess is you'll still choose the wrong gun.
Lol, you seem to know a lot about this subject. I have had that chart for years, well before I started shooting Smaller guns. So do not tell us who uses the chart based on just small guns. Lol, that is utter nonsense. People to this day train with larger guns the same way.
FYI, I actually started off with a big a** gun for carry. Then worked myself down. It seems you are trying to justify what YOU carry. Which is fine. But do not attempt to tell us that all that do carry a small gun that you have inside knowledge about us.
Read the OP, he is focusing on a "BUG" and hence the video of the rule of three is training for such a Weapon by a guy that knows firearms very well. I do not believe for a moment that he is "just throwing crap out there to justify anything other than just instruct a class and training for small guns. You want to carry a large 22.cal that is fine, there are those that would not agree with your choice, but maybe YOU can show us a video or training for such a gun as a backup.

Millions of people do carry small guns to include revolver, and it is my opinion that IF you are going to carry one, you should become proficient with them. And knowledge from someone like the instructor is just that, Knowledge.
And owners of small firearms at least do not look at any training video and make comments like "they are doing this just to justify their carry of large weapons". By the way, I own a similar size 22.cal, the Ruger SR22 which I have owned since they first hit the market. Countless rounds through the gun and I know it well. I have no desire to carry it for EDC or a Bug, but respect you opinion to do so.

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; June 5, 2021 at 08:00 PM.
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Old June 5, 2021, 07:34 PM   #84
Carl the Floor Walker
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Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy View Post
So, do you think any of these younguns walking around with their nose in their phone and earphones on has a single survival instinct buried anywhere deep inside?
I am hoping the best for them hoping they can find it before finding out the hard way. 14 teens are killed each day of the year because of cell phone and text messaging. Not counting the ones they kill. What a horrible tragedy to have to loose a love one because of such a blatant disregard to safety.

What is more disturbing is the the fact that some Adults do the same. And the biggest hypocrite is the guy that advocates firearms for self defense and then gets in the car and picks up his cell phone. I fear him, more than a attacker with a firearm. Seems you just cannot fix stupid.

Last edited by Carl the Floor Walker; June 5, 2021 at 08:08 PM.
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Old June 5, 2021, 08:20 PM   #85
AK103K
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Im not justifying anything. All Im saying is, you have no idea as to what you're going to get or when. You arent the one that gets to choose. So you get to deal with what you have, and what you have in it. Has nothing to do with those silly charts and statistics. Its what YOU get in the moment when its your turn. If your primary gun cant handle things beyond "the averages", then a BUG makes perfect sense. That, or a more appropriate gun.

If you're going to post statistics and charts, why not show ALL the data, so we can see what the breakdowns are, and just how often each is actually the case. Then maybe we can make a more informed decision.

Then again, Murphy is always hanging out in the wings, so maybe today is your turn to need a lot more gear-wise, and skill-wise, so are you up to the task? Or are you going with all Ill need is a couple of rounds at close range and Im good, for "everything"?

And just to touch on a couple of things from your chart....

I can draw and fire from concealment, on average just a bit under 2 seconds with my 17, and thats year round, and around 2.5 seconds with my 26, which is in a deep concealment holster, and takes a bit little more time.

3 or so rounds are going to be fired each time I shoot, and more if they arent down from the first burst. If they arent going down, you don't stop shooting, or were you taught differently? I would assume most do shoot in bursts and do in fact practice shooting like that? No?

I seem to have a good bit better hit ratio than the chart shows. And that's shooting while Im moving when in up close, and more often than not at those distances, shooting over the gun and not using the sights. And low light isn't an issue at those distances, as long as I can see and verify the target, I don't need the sights to make good hits.

So, how do you do there and how are you usually working on things in weekly practice? Still putting the time and effort in and staying current?


I would say what those charts and statistics show the most is, if those are the "average" statistics, of the majority of accounts, its pretty obvious that the "average" shooter, is at best mediocre, and in reality, less than that.
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Old June 5, 2021, 08:51 PM   #86
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One thing I don’t get, why would you carry a gun of a different caliber for a BUG? I carry a compact 9mm and if I wanted a backup it would be an LCR in 9mm. This way I could strip ammo from the mag on the disabled gun and reload the revolver if I absolutely needed it.
According to stats, the likelihood of you ever using your primary gun is exceedingly remote to begin with. The idea that you are going to take a broken gun and utilize the ammo in an alternate gun is about as fringe a thing as I can imagine. People commonly carry a small backup gun (often of a smaller caliber) simply because the concept of a backup gun has origins in the idea that a person might be disarmed and still be able to produce a second "hidden" gun which had gone undetected. In these circumstances, the backup gun needs to be small to remain hidden.

The idea that an ancillary weapon would be of the same caliber is rather fringe. A soldiers weapon is a rifle with an ancillary (pistol) of a smaller caliber. It is not uncommon for LEO's to use a backup which is not the same caliber as their duty weapon. There are polls which indicate that 22, 25,32 and 38 are more popular backup calibers vs 9mm and up.

I carry a 9mm BHP and my backup gun is a NAA mini revolver in 22mag.
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Old June 5, 2021, 09:11 PM   #87
Carl the Floor Walker
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Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
According to stats, the likelihood of you ever using your primary gun is exceedingly remote to begin with. The idea that you are going to take a broken gun and utilize the ammo in an alternate gun is about as fringe a thing as I can imagine. People commonly carry a small backup gun (often of a smaller caliber) simply because the concept of a backup gun has origins in the idea that a person might be disarmed and still be able to produce a second "hidden" gun which had gone undetected. In these circumstances, the backup gun needs to be small to remain hidden.

The idea that an ancillary weapon would be of the same caliber is rather fringe. A soldiers weapon is a rifle with an ancillary (pistol) of a smaller caliber. It is not uncommon for LEO's to use a backup which is not the same caliber as their duty weapon. There are polls which indicate that 22, 25,32 and 38 are more popular backup calibers vs 9mm and up.

I carry a 9mm BHP and my backup gun is a NAA mini revolver in 22mag.
A lot of merit goes to the LCR9mm. I bought one as soon as I heard they were coming out by Ruger. The Idea of shooting the same caliber that I shoot by the thousands each month was too big too resist. I have to say, I love that gun. Never once looked back from purchasing it. What is nice is I have the LCR22 which also aids my shooting for training and practice. In fact will be taking it to the range tomorrow.

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Old June 5, 2021, 10:09 PM   #88
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For me, I long ago decided that a back-up magazine is preferable to a back-up gun
there are any number of reasons that your gun might be broken, taken or dropped/lost in a fight. Are you simply resigned to only mitigate a need for ammo? Do you believe that a need for ammo is more likely than the other three potential issues and if so, how do you come to this conclusion. It can be said that the near universal consensus is that very few rounds are likely to be discharge during a citizen self defense action.
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Old June 6, 2021, 05:33 AM   #89
jetinteriorguy
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Originally Posted by FireForged View Post
According to stats, the likelihood of you ever using your primary gun is exceedingly remote to begin with. The idea that you are going to take a broken gun and utilize the ammo in an alternate gun is about as fringe a thing as I can imagine. People commonly carry a small backup gun (often of a smaller caliber) simply because the concept of a backup gun has origins in the idea that a person might be disarmed and still be able to produce a second "hidden" gun which had gone undetected. In these circumstances, the backup gun needs to be small to remain hidden.

The idea that an ancillary weapon would be of the same caliber is rather fringe. A soldiers weapon is a rifle with an ancillary (pistol) of a smaller caliber. It is not uncommon for LEO's to use a backup which is not the same caliber as their duty weapon. There are polls which indicate that 22, 25,32 and 38 are more popular backup calibers vs 9mm and up.

I carry a 9mm BHP and my backup gun is a NAA mini revolver in 22mag.
So if your 9mm primary jams with an almost full magazine, and your bug of a different caliber runs out of ammo, but the situation still is unresolved, your pretty much screwed since you can’t strip the ammo you have available and use it in your bug. And this is fringe thinking, I call it having some common sense.
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Old June 6, 2021, 08:12 AM   #90
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It's a shame just how opinionated and often times downright arrogant certain folks can be in regards to what other folks carry...

Honestly, you'd think it's common sense that people are individuals with completely different lives, living in completely different places, of all different shapes/sizes and thusly that the concept that there exists some universal ideal method of/approach to self-defense, especially when it comes to what folks carry, but apparently there are no shortage of folks who are so thoroughly ignorant, naive, and unabashedly arrogant that they presume they're qualified to instruct others on what to carry.
Yeah, yeah, I know... This is where some folks would start making desperate appeals to authority about how the Military or Law Enforcement carries such and such, ergo everybody should do the same as if the standard issue by the Military/LE is by any means ideal for everyone and not merely a compromise, bonus points if they decide to start name-dropping some academy they personally attended/graduated from under the tutelage of some long-retired veteran who is merely repeating whatever training methods they had received with a few minor modifications based on personal experience or individual distinction. (Nobody cares if you graduated top of your class at Gunfight Academy under the tutelage of Corporal Dunning-Kruger, nor does it qualify you to dictate what others carry, get over yourself.)

If folks feel more confident carrying backup guns, then they ought to carry backup guns, as it's much easier to make it through a self-defense situation if you're confident. The probably of whether or not they'll ever need to use that backup gun as well as the likelihood of them being capable of using it to good effect is irrelevant.
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Old June 6, 2021, 08:45 AM   #91
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Some good ideas in this thread, but I think we've covered them all at this point and things are starting to get a little personal.
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