Road rage shooting - both drivers claim self-defense

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Crazy88Fingers

it's obvious they both entered a stupid contest, and the guy in the truck won.

I'd wager that by the time this plays out he will not likely feel like he won anything.

[Catfishman]

Don't carry a gun if you can't control your temper.

People should take this to heart. If carrying a gun makes you feel tougher and more willing to engage in a confrontation, you really shouldn't carry, in fact you should probably sell your guns.

Guns aren't for everybody, if you have a short fuse, don't put youself in a bad situation.

These guys may have been average joes.

[therewolf]

Well, it certainly looks like both drivers A&B are going to be spending a lot of time "separated" from loved ones NOW.

I feel really special. My vehicle must be THE ONLY ONE IN THE WORLD
with
-cushy, soft seats

-personal sound system

-climate control

It's the most comfortable environment I'll be in ALL DAY.
I feel sorry for the rest of you guys, you're all in SUCH A RUSH,
the interiors of your cars must SUCK, you're all in such a hurry to get to
point B.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Other than one driver tapping his brakes the rest is all defenseless. For tapping your breaks, when has that been illegal? I personally would have slowed and let the guy pass. Wave him on politely. He if is having that bad of a day, why escalate the situation? Now, if I could only get my girlfriend to do that, we would be safe. Of course she does not have a PTC to lose if things go south.

[XD Gunner]

I think the number thing I see is the vehicle of choice for 21 yo male, not that I think all should drive suburban's but having a vehicle with a real bumper capable of taking that hit would help.

Yeah, because car choice has so much to do with this scenario. I've never had to worry about anything remotely as dangerous as this scenario in my Mustang, why? I don't know, I've never pulled a gun on anyone for passing me before for starters, I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.

You could insert any 2 vehicles of your choosing in this scenario and it still ends up with one getting killed because neither knew how to grow up.

[Frank Ettin]

I suspect that the shooter will be indicted and claim self defense at his trial. It'll be interesting to see how his lawyer tells the story and makes the pitch for justification. But from little information we have, it looks like a mutual fight to me; and that would torpedoe any self defense plea.

[Sport45]

Originally Posted by Peetzakiller

Quote:

I'd wager that by the time this plays out he will not likely feel like he won anything.

I think you misread. He didn’t win a contest that was stupid. He won the contest of being the most stupid.

At least that’s the way I read it.

I think the driver of the Mustang was within his rights in “brake checking” or whatever you call it when he was tapping the brakes. That’s pretty much a universal signal for, “hey, I’m not comfortable with you following that close.” Getting out with a gun wasn’t too bright, but Mr Pickup had already been demonstrating aggression by tailgating and approaching Mr Mustang when they were stopped.

[ojibweindian]

The shooter is screwed. No grand jury is going to buy a self defense claim. I wouldn't. I wonder if the idiot thinks his pride was worth a good 10-20 years (or worse) in prison?

[Skans]

Anytime you decide to get out of your car to confront someone, no matter how big of an idiot he's being, you just stepped into some bad doodoo. You have a much better tactical advantage of being inside of a vehicle. You can choose to drive off in any direction, or you can decide to take cover inside of your vehicle if you are being fired upon. By leaving your vehicle in this type of situation, you are giving up your tactical advantage, giving up your ability to drive away, and giving up a pretty solid legal defense if you are forced to use your firearm.

[ATW525]

I think the driver of the Mustang was within his rights in “brake checking” or whatever you call it when he was tapping the brakes.

I hate tailgaters as much as the next guy, but there's absolutely no "right" to brake check. It can cause serious or even fatal accidents, or as in this case, serve to further escalate road rage.

[Skans]

I don't have any problem tailgateing slow-pokes who ride in the left on the highway. But, I also don't mind getting brake-checked either - comes with the territory. I admit, when I'm on the road for 8 hours straight, I'm looking to do a hair under 80mph and make time, and it is anoying when slow-pokes who are jut a bump-bump'n along get in my way.

But, if I got mad at every idiot on the road, or everyone who brake-checked me for tailgating them I wouldn't be long for this world.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Tailgating and brake checking are BOTH bad joo-joo.

There is no need for either and there are universally acceptable ways of signaling other drivers to avoid doing such.


Don't tailgate. Flash your headlights from a reasonable distance. MOST people will move over. If they don't, tailgating them will just make them angry, or they're oblivious and it will just make YOU angry. Don't make people angry. Slow down and wait for an opportunity to pass them.

If someone tailgates you on the highway, get out of the way if you can (getting out of the way BEFORE they tailgate you is better), speed up if it's safe to do so and move over OR SLOW DOWN (slowly, without braking) if it's safe to do so and move over. Don't brake check people. It's not safe and it's illegal.

[Inhimwelive]

I don't see anything to be confused about ... The shooter initiated the confrontation.. Then he used his truck to attack possibly with the intent to kill.. At any point he could have left.. Then he gets out and shoots the guy.. Whether the victim had any weapon at all seems to be a moot point.. All I see is the shooter murdered him in a road rage.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We were talking about this yesterday and it certainly isn't good evidence for the upcoming campus carry debate in Texas. Young folks, CJ - in school, with guns and a total lack of emotional control and smarts.

After the Naples guy!

Geez.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Glenn E Meyer

Young folks, CJ - in school, with guns and a total lack of emotional control and smarts.

Is there a general consensus in your discussions that the young person is largely at fault here? I'm curious because it seems to me like age is a moot point, being that it appears, from what information we have, that two people both acted equally stupidly... one being 21, the other 40-something.

[MLeake]

... I would put much more blame on the 40yo.

One poster indicated he google-satellite-mapped what he thinks to be the intersection where the 21yo exited his vehicle, and that if it was the right intersection, then it's very possible the 21yo's Mustang was physically blocked in by the truck.

If that were the case, I wonder if everybody would be saying, "stay in the car."

The reason I ask that is because I've always been taught that if a vehicle is immobilized, it's the LAST place you want to be for a confrontation. You lose all mobility, and make a sitting target; meanwhile, your driver's door and window won't stop most rounds.

So, if the Mustang was actually blocked, then exiting the car may not have been "aggression" on the part of the 21yo, but a precaution. Same with his display of a weapon.

Also, the initial write-up indicated that the 21yo's "brake check" was caused by him slowing to allow another car to make a turn, not a "brake check" in the sense of flipping an automotive bird at the 40yo.

Those statements and assumptions could have been wrong, in which case I'd say they both screwed up, but I'd still assign more blame to the 40yo. But if those statements and assumptions were accurate, I'd accept a self-defense claim from the decedent, had he survived.

[Mr. James]

Originally Posted by Ben Towe

Did he have the movie SWAT playing continually on his big screen?

I'm thinking Training Day.

Originally Posted by Reporter News timeline

Molina asks David, "What are you thinking?"

Sounds like the only adult involved.

As to the rest, peetzakilla pretty much covered the waterfront.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My point was that the 21 year will be used as a specific example of bad behavior in an upcoming debate that would extend carry rights to a situation with such young folk.

The 40 year old could be used as an example of stupid CHLs in general. However, current legislation isn't affecting them.

Who's to blame wasn't my focus, rather it was the PR aspects.

[cracked91]

What I still can't understand is why the other guy was not detained.

Im going to be really disappointed if this guy gets let off the hook.

[BGutzman]

Stupid hurts everyone.... The antis are just awaiting..

[SwampYankee]

When someone aggressively tailgates me, I calmly pull over to the side of the road and let them pass. I don't look at them as they pass and simply wait for them to achieve distance. As a rule, I never tailgate, no matter how slow the person in front of me is going. These two simply procedures assure that I will never run into idiots like these. And after 300,000 miles under my belt, I never have. Defensive driving is just another form of self defense.

[Glenn Bartley]

You can choose to drive off in any direction, or you can decide to take cover inside of your vehicle if you are being fired upon.

You think that staying in a car, offers great cover if you are being shot at? You think you can always drive off in any direction? What about being in traffic or in a tunnel or on a bridge or in an enclosed parking lot with limited space. If your car is boxed in and you cannot drive off do you think you should remain in the vehicle if someone is shooting at you? Think of how limited are your options if you remain in the car. Think of what poor cover much, if not most, of a car provides.

Try setting up car doors at a range and shoot at them with even a pea shooter round like 9mm. See what happens, maybe you will change your mind. While you are in the vehicle, hoping a guy shooting at you from outside keeps hitting the engine block, bear in mind that once he walks around to the side and starts shooting through the doors, you no longer have cover from a wide variety of rounds. If there are 2 guys shooting at you and they flank the car, what are you going to do to improve your chances of survival then remembering your car is boxed in or maybe that they just put 10 rounds into your engine block and it is not running. Of course, if some jerk jumps out of his car and tries to shoot you and your car is not boxed in, well then maybe you can escape or maybe even run down the threat but to choose staying in your vehicle to use it as cover in a gunfight, not if there chance I can get out of it without being shot first.

In the particular incident in question though, it would have been much better if they had both remained in their vehicles. It would also have been better if they had exhibited calmness and if both had driven courteously. It would also have been better to just give one another the finger and drive away if they had to get mad at one another.

All the best,
Glenn B

[Glenn Bartley]

What I still can't understand is why the other guy was not detained.

Im going to be really disappointed if this guy gets let off the hook.

Because there probably is much more to this story and the police are aware of it and you are not and they based their decision to let him walk based up what they know.

All the best,
GB

[bikerbill]

Both drivers in the wrong ... this is classic road rage, and the death of the motorist could have obviously been avoided if both men had simply driven away instead of pulling the macho man routine ... guns are there to help you solve life-threatening situations, not to blow away somebody who offended you in traffic ...

[Skans]

You think that staying in a car, offers great cover

Perhaps I should have said "most of the time" rather than "anytime". Most of the time, staying in your car is going to be the right tactical move. Most times when folks get out of their cars it's simply to puff their chests and start fights. I really don't think too many armed folks are going to actually find themselves boxed in to the point that it is advantageous to leave their vehicle. My vehicle is a Jeep with 4wd and good sized tires - I'm going to be able to go over just about anything, other than other cars to get away. If I was driving a Prius....well, that might be completely different.