The Firing Line Forums
Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > S.W.A.T. Magazine

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old January 28, 2002, 12:03 AM   #1
Nightcrawler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2000
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,945
LOVED the February 2002 Issue!!

The AR vs Mini-14 test was great. But there were other things:

I really liked the "guns of the colonial police" article. Articles disscussing weapons of the 1900-1940 period are very, very interesting AND educational to me, as I don't know very much about that period. Keep up the good work! Besides, such articles throw off the normal gun rag pace of going on about the newest black and tactical wundergun.

Some kinds of articles I'd like to see? Hmm.

Well, we often here about how the basic lever rifle is often overlooked for self-defense purposes. How about an article about how various lever rifles in .44 Mag, .357 Mag, .45 Colt, or .30-30 can work as a defensive arm?

An AR vs. AK match WOULD be cool, BUT:

-It has to be fair. You can't match a DPMS AR against a Maadi AK. I think a Robinson VEPR II would be a good choice.

-Same caliber. AR in .223, use a VEPR II in .223.

-Maybe put a dot sight on both of them.

Something like that.

I'd also like to see some "non-traditional" rifles taken through Urban Rifle courses at places like Gunsite and the like. What do I mean by non-traditional? Well, everybody at Urban Rifle, or tactical (non-sniper-oriented) rifle classes in general, seems to use AR-15s. How about having somebody run through one with an M1A Scout, a shorty FAL, or an AK? Just to be different.

As always, keep up the good work!
__________________
Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus
Nightcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28, 2002, 07:39 AM   #2
Rich Lucibella
Staff
 
Join Date: October 6, 1998
Location: South Florida
Posts: 10,229
How 'bout we send Ashley Emerson down to Thunder Ranch to take the Urban Rifle class with a $400, out of the box Lever Action 30-30? We'll give him permission to change the sights and butt pad, slick the action and that's it.

Might be interesting.
Rich
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Rich Lucibella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28, 2002, 08:45 AM   #3
Ewok_Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 11, 2001
Location: Endor
Posts: 1,664
Might? Heh, would!
__________________
"Death and honor are thought to be the same,
but today I have learned that sometimes they are not."

---------------------
" I like big fat men like you. When they fall they make more noise!
...and sometimes they never get up."
-Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez
Ewok_Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28, 2002, 08:50 AM   #4
Schmit
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: March 11, 1999
Location: Masquito infested flatlands of Mid-FL
Posts: 1,857
Darn Rich,

As soon as I read Nightcrawler's idea about taking the course with a non-traditional rifle the first thing I though of was a 30-30 lever action.

Would one of Jim West's Co-Pilot's fit your criteria for a change of sights and slicked up action?
__________________
Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)

"Notoriety is fleeting,
Anonymity is forever!"
Schmit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28, 2002, 09:09 AM   #5
Pat Rogers
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 303
Non traditional

I can speak for the Gunsite 223/ 556 classes here.
The reality of life, absent any strong feelings of attachment for a particular gun/ brand etc, is that the AR family is what performs best in that environment.
In the years that i have been teaching those classes, i have never seen a Mini14 complete either course. We did have one lady come through to do a TV shot, and she brought 2 ranch rifles (our suggestion). They both were TU on thursday, and she finished the course w/ my M4.
We have had several Minis through the Chiefs of Police courses, but they are of short duration (2 days pistol, 2days carbine, 1 day SG).
Several of thos attending the CoP classes also brought M94 30-30's, and did well.
We have had several AK varients through. One exceptionally talented shooter brought an AK74 and he and the carbine did superbly, open sights and all.
Note that he was very good, and could perform speed reloads, shot to shot, in 3 seconds. He was a Park Ranger type, had exceptional eyesight, and terrific motor skills.
Those few bringing AK47 varients were generally behind the power curve due to poor weapon ergonomics.
Having spent 5 years in a military unit dedicated to Foreign Material Acquisition and Exploitation, i have seen and fired many rounds out of many varients. I am not as enamored with the gun as many here seem to me. Its vaunted reliability is slightly better then the AR, but at the cost of efficient weapons manipulation, 1/3 of the combat triad.
Note that the 223 class is basically an intro to the system, and we shoot from contact to 300/ 400 yds, depending on the class quality.
The 556 is more of a fighting class, and ranges run from contact through 100yds, with the majority at or under 25 yds.
The 7.62x51 out of any gun is an extremely poor choice for CQB (I note that many are confused as to what CQB actually is) due to overpenetration and muzzle blast issues.
However, though the 223 class (the name is a clue!) is designed for tha caliber gun, we have had several people go through with M14 varients.
As a rule, the ergonomics will put them behind the power curve.
That caliber is better suited for the 270- General Rifle Course.

Personally, i would love to see a wider variety of 556 caliber weapons come through, but that doesn't happen.
This is quite possibly because the AR is a ubiquitous system, and is proven over the years, while many others are of small production runs.

I am not prejuidiced for or against any system on face value.
I am just commenting on what i have seen at the School house.

So- bring out your blaster and put it through the class. It may be enlightening for all of us!

In short, he would have done fine with any weapon, proving the adage "It is the Indian, not the arrow".
__________________
S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com
Pat Rogers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28, 2002, 09:55 AM   #6
Rich Lucibella
Staff
 
Join Date: October 6, 1998
Location: South Florida
Posts: 10,229
Schmit-
I don't think the 45-70 would fit for Urban Rifle, for the very reasons Pat states...overpenetration.
http://thefiringline.com/Misc/tanzan...-Buf_Bore1.jpg

I wonder if the 30-30 might not be suitable in the right hands?

As for the Co-Pilot....great gun. I prefer the variant made by DRC Custom (David Clay) myself. Higher cool factor; higher bomb proof factor.
Rich
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Rich Lucibella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 28, 2002, 10:50 AM   #7
Schmit
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: March 11, 1999
Location: Masquito infested flatlands of Mid-FL
Posts: 1,857
Rich,

I didn't represent my last statement well. What I ment to say was a .30-30 with a Scout Scope (ghost ring fixed sights for if the scope gos TU) and the action slicked up. Basically a Co-Pilot in .30-30.

As for over penetration that is all a matter of bullet design, is it not?

Nice Buff, very well trained to lay there like that and let you have a photo taken.
__________________
Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)

"Notoriety is fleeting,
Anonymity is forever!"
Schmit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 29, 2002, 12:28 AM   #8
Correia
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 1998
Location: SLC Utah
Posts: 3,740
I have a Vepr II K (16 inch bbl. 7.62x39). One of the ones from the first batch in the country. I volunteer to shoot the heck out of it, with different ammo, stick it in snow, mud, sand, dirt, etc... I have a whole mess of volunteers (Utah TFLers) who would be glad to help out and give opinions. Just give it a good run, and write up the results.

I've never written a magazine article before, but I would like to give it a try. Rich, Denny, would this be something that you fellows would be interested in?
Correia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 29, 2002, 10:37 AM   #9
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 29, 2001
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,422
Correia-

You have mail.
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Denny Hansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 29, 2002, 12:54 PM   #10
Bartholomew Roberts
member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
I just wanted to drop in and echo Nightcrawler's comments. The February article was great - its one of the few magazines I can sit down and read for several hours and still not hit all the articles that interest me.

February's issue was a particularly good article for me since it had the AR15/Mini14 comparison, the EDS Holosight eval, the ACOG piece and an interesting article by Harry Humphries. All in all, I haven't even received the full year's subscription yet and I already feel very happy with the money spent.

I also enjoy Pat Rogers articles from past issues on the M4 and FSBE as well as his participation here and in the Tactical Forums. As an AR15 owner, its nice to have the opinion and experience of someone with extensive experience on the system. Since I buy all my own gear, I really appreciate the opportunity to learn from someone else's experience before I commit what money I have to new gear.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 29, 2002, 05:11 PM   #11
Rich Lucibella
Staff
 
Join Date: October 6, 1998
Location: South Florida
Posts: 10,229
Deal is done!

Denny's approval received.
Clint's approval received.
Ashley pressed into service.

Here's the drill:
Ashley will be allowed the following leeway with a new-in-box Lever Action 30-30:
- Butt Pad replacement.
- Basic action slicking and dehorn.
- Optional iron sights of choice.

Here's the assignment:
- Tell us how a stock $500 rifle, from a 100 year old design, performs against today's whiz-bang black rifles in a World Class Training Course.

Look for it in an upcoming issue!
Rich


It should be illegal to have as much fun as I do!
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Rich Lucibella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 29, 2002, 05:37 PM   #12
Denny Hansen
Staff Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 29, 2001
Location: Prescott Valley, AZ
Posts: 2,422
I've got five bucks that says Ashley will more than hold his own in the class. Any takers?

Denny
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Denny Hansen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 31, 2002, 07:11 PM   #13
Dave R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2000
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,073
Who is gonna bet against Ashley?


Not me.
__________________
I am Pro-Rights (on gun issues).
Dave R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 31, 2002, 08:23 PM   #14
Nightcrawler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2000
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,945
Wow. Something I suggested is actually going to make it into a magazine. (sort of)

How cool is that?? SWAT has a lifetime reader! Booyah!

Um...who is Ashley?
__________________
Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus

Last edited by Nightcrawler; January 31, 2002 at 09:07 PM.
Nightcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 31, 2002, 11:27 PM   #15
Jamie Young
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2000
Location: SE/PA
Posts: 4,834
Thats exactly Why I signed up!

__________________
Find out about Gun Shows and Training activities.
www.TheRallyPoint.org
Get your gun club involved!!
Jamie Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 31, 2002, 11:47 PM   #16
Rich Lucibella
Staff
 
Join Date: October 6, 1998
Location: South Florida
Posts: 10,229
Ashley Emerson, of Ashley Outdoors fame; of Ashley Express Sights , Ghost Ring Sights, Big Dot Sights, Ashley-Clifton Scout Scope Mount.

Ashley of "Hitting with the Shotgun" (S.W.A.T. Article) fame.

Ashley, the 6'6" Texan who'd just as soon erase you from the planet as have y'all breathe his air! Ashley, the most recoil insensitive mutant on Earth.....besides me!

That's who.
Rich
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine
Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World
Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook
Rich Lucibella is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 31, 2002, 11:51 PM   #17
Nightcrawler
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 2000
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,945
Oh...that Ashley. Heh.

Well, I really appreciate that my feedback actually gets read and considered.

__________________
Nightcrawler- TFL Alumnus
Nightcrawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 1, 2002, 10:37 AM   #18
nascarnhlnra
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2002
Location: THE DEEP SOUTH USA
Posts: 531
Can't wait to read the results on this one what a unique mag and forum super user friendly hard to find these days!!!!!!!
__________________
The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house faster than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
nascarnhlnra is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Page generated in 0.10976 seconds with 10 queries