The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 10, 2017, 10:31 AM   #1
Sea Buck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: New England,Florida Snow Bird
Posts: 292
Crimp when loading for a T/C Contender ?

Reading about loads for the Contender I see some reference to crimping . Is this really necessary? It's like a rifle round, and neck tension should be sufficient. Some thoughts on this please.
Sea Buck is offline  
Old October 10, 2017, 11:02 AM   #2
mikld
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2009
Location: Southern Oregon!
Posts: 2,363
I crimp my .44 Magnum loads for my Contender, but not the bottlenecked cartridges (223 and 30-30). Some of my heavy loaded .44 Mags work better (or seem to) with hefty crimps for "better" powder burn. Did a quickie test with my .223 in a Handi-Rifle; Lee collet crimp vs no crimp. No crimp rounds w/same load and bullet shot slightly better, accuracy wise...
__________________
My Anchor is holding fast!
I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...
mikld is offline  
Old October 10, 2017, 11:05 AM   #3
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 17,353
IF the Contender is the only gun you are shooting that ammo in, then a crimp is not needed.

There is no magazine holding ammo where the rounds can be affected by recoil, and there is no feeding cycle to do it, either.

HOWEVER, done correctly, a crimp hurts nothing. Done incorrectly, it can.

I shoot crimped ammo in several calibers in my Contender, because I shoot the same ammo in other guns where the crimp is needed.

For me, its this way...

.22 Hornet = no crimp
.222Rem = no crimp
.30-30 Win = crimp on FP bullets also used in lever guns, no crimp on "Contender only" loads with spitzer bullets.
9mm Luger = standard taper crimp
.38SPL/.357 Mag = standard roll crimp (same as for revolvers)
.44 Spl/.44Mag = standard roll crimp
.45 Colt = revolver roll crimp
.45-70 = crimp (ammo also fired in lever gun) no crimp ammo for Ruger No.3 and Contender

Hope this helps.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is online now  
Old October 10, 2017, 02:02 PM   #4
marchboom
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 10, 2017
Location: No. Idaho
Posts: 1
I agree with mikld. No sense introducing another variable (crimping) IF NOT NEEDED.

I haven't tried the Lee collet die, though.
__________________
NRA Life Member
NHRA
marchboom is offline  
Old October 11, 2017, 02:14 AM   #5
Steve in PA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 1999
Location: Northeastern PA
Posts: 662
I crimp .44 Magnum ammo for my T/C because I use the same dies to load .44 Mag ammo for a Super Redhawk and Super Blackhawk.

For my .22 Hornet, .223 and 7-30 Waters, I don't crimp.
__________________
Steve
Steve in PA is offline  
Old October 11, 2017, 01:30 PM   #6
ShootistPRS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 3, 2017
Posts: 1,551
The only cartridge I crimp in my contenders is the 357 Maximum. This super magnum requires a solid crimp for good ignition. I like launching a 180 grain bullet at 1800 fps from a pistol, especially when they cloverleaf at 50 yards.
ShootistPRS is offline  
Old October 11, 2017, 02:14 PM   #7
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,542
"...for "better" powder burn..." A crimp has nothing to do with the burn rate or ignition.
A crimp is required for heavy recoiling cartridges in revolvers and for lever actions. Crimps are not required for anything else.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old October 11, 2017, 02:17 PM   #8
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 11,034
^You're dead wrong... and passing it off as fact.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old October 11, 2017, 04:14 PM   #9
NoSecondBest
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 7, 2009
Location: Western New York
Posts: 1,745
There are some powders that require a crimp to burn efficiently. WW296 immediately comes to mind. I shoot a lot of single shot rifles and I've owned several Contenders. I don't crimp with most powders, but do with the ones I know require it for best performance. Again, most powders don't require it and the gun certainly doesn't with no magazine in it.
NoSecondBest is offline  
Old October 11, 2017, 06:21 PM   #10
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 3,470
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSecondBest View Post
There are some powders that require a crimp to burn efficiently. WW296 immediately comes to mind..
^^^This. IMR4227 is another powder that likes a firm crimp for consistent ignition.

From the Speer reloading manual from the "reloading handgun Cartridges" section....
Quote:
When using slow burning propellants, a heavy crimp helps insure that the propellant ignites completely, acheiving higher velocities and cleaner burning".

Last edited by buck460XVR; October 11, 2017 at 06:28 PM.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old October 12, 2017, 10:06 AM   #11
briandg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 4, 2010
Posts: 4,195
The contender is a single shot and is never subjected to either recoil or impact on a feed ramp.

Functionally, there is no need at all for a crimp.

If it required because a powder charge or other that's a different matter.
__________________
None.
briandg is offline  
Old October 15, 2017, 09:11 AM   #12
.284
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2009
Location: davison, michigan
Posts: 661
Crimp test

Crimp testing is one thing that I'm doing with my 500 S&W Encore right now. I just finished loading 30 last night. Actually I'm testing two things. I loaded Barnes 325 gr XPB over 45 grains of the mentioned W296 in Hornady brass. The variables are that half were loaded with CCI LR and the other half with Federal LRMP. Also, as it relates to this discussion, I made 5 each of the CCI loaded rounds light crimp, medium crimp, down right stout. The same was done to the Federals. That's six 5 shot groups to test on the bench and I'll be getting chronograph results as well. I want to see if there is specifically a noticeable difference in the ES and SD.
__________________
Guns have only two enemies, rust and politicians!

Deer are amazing creatures....so please don't burn the sauteed onions and I'll pass on the steak sauce, thank you.
.284 is offline  
Old October 15, 2017, 09:17 AM   #13
.284
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2009
Location: davison, michigan
Posts: 661
By the way Sea Buck, what caliber is your Contender chambered in? Also, as some have mentioned powder is important as well. What is your load data?
__________________
Guns have only two enemies, rust and politicians!

Deer are amazing creatures....so please don't burn the sauteed onions and I'll pass on the steak sauce, thank you.
.284 is offline  
Old October 15, 2017, 11:18 AM   #14
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 13,829
Basically, for the same reason that you tend to need to use faster powders in straight wall cases than in bottleneck cases, slower powders can require a crimp in a straight wall case. If that sounds confusing, here's the deal: The bigger the bullet diameter is compared to the case volume, the less far the bullet has to move into the barrel to double the space the powder is burning in. So expansion tends to be more rapid in a low case volume to bulled diameter ratio cartridges and straight wall cases tend to have the lowest of these ratios. So, the powder has to get burning more quickly in these cartridges to enjoy good ballistic efficiency. Increasing the crimp slightly delays the release of the bullet, improving the opportunity for powder ignition variations to get ironed out before the pressure peaks.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old October 15, 2017, 01:11 PM   #15
Hammerhead
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2,049
I crimp for my single shot 357 Handi, just a little for Unique or other medium speed powders and a full crimp for HS-6, Lil'gun. HS-6 gets ugly if you don't crimp.
Hammerhead is offline  
Old October 15, 2017, 01:32 PM   #16
buck460XVR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2006
Posts: 3,470
Many folks claim one never needs to trim handgun brass. From my experience tho, using slow burning powders in magnum calibers, that trimming brass to a consistent length produces the most consistent crimps and thus the most consistent velocity/accuracy. Hodgdon(distributor of H110/W296) recommends the use of magnum primers, a heavy crimp and against downloading the powder to prevent misfires/stuck bullets due to incomplete ignition.

Last edited by buck460XVR; October 15, 2017 at 01:39 PM.
buck460XVR is offline  
Old October 15, 2017, 05:15 PM   #17
.284
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2009
Location: davison, michigan
Posts: 661
Not to hijack Sea Buck's thread but, yes I will trim mine for that reason. Most of my loads are for hunting and thus longer ranges. I want long range accuracy with straight walls. I would like to know what he is using his Contender for as I suspect hunting.
__________________
Guns have only two enemies, rust and politicians!

Deer are amazing creatures....so please don't burn the sauteed onions and I'll pass on the steak sauce, thank you.
.284 is offline  
Old October 19, 2017, 10:01 PM   #18
azklmsr
Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 32
You have to crimp powders like 296. Back in the 70's, my dad bought a TC in 44mag and thought no crimp was needed and loaded with 296. Patterned like a shotgun. I could shoot light loads well with it using Herco or unique, but heavy loads of 2400 or 296, no bueno. Fast forward to post 2000, and I inherited said gun. Firm crimp, and wha la - accuracy.

my experience
azklmsr is offline  
Old October 20, 2017, 09:36 AM   #19
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 13,829
The deal with not needing to trim handgun brass is pressure-dependent. Very broadly speaking (because it differs some with burn curve shape and brass shape), cartridges that peak at much above around 30,000 psi will have their case walls stick to a chamber wall before the head backs up to the breech, which then happens by stretching the brass where the head thickness drops off (at the pressure ring), causing case growth. Below about 30,000 psi, the whole case backs up to the breech along with the head, and this happens before the case walls stick and fully seal against the chamber. As a result, brass stretching to make head contact does not occur. So, if you have, say, 38 Special, you may want to trim once to get the even crimp Buck mentioned, but then you probably won't have to trim it again.

With low pressure rounds you can actually get some shrinking with each load cycle, especially if you have a tapered chamber, from which brass doesn't always size back 100% to length. I did an experiment with .45 Auto in which I put 500 Winchester bulk brass cases through 50 light target level reloads. Many were splitting or lost in the grass by the time I finished. Of those that remained (about half), all had shortened about 0.025", so they were all below SAAMI minimum and I'd had to adjust my taper crimp die to keep using them. Bottom line, they lost an average of half a thousandth in length per load cycle. There is obviously no cause for trimming at that point. Indeed, they all had to headspace on bullet contact with the throat, as, otherwise, the extractor hook would stop the case mouths going forward far enough to headspace on the end of the chamber.

The .357 and .44 Magnums are close enough to the 30,000 psi dividing line that you may or may not see growth, depending how you load them, but I've not noticed it with H110/296. Again, you may trim for crimp consistency, but for chamber fit it doesn't seem to be needed before roll crimping has worn out the case mouths and they start to split. The straight wall case is also less prone to chamber sticking before it backs up in the chamber than a bottleneck case is, anyway. This is due to large bullet area to push back against and lack of an inside shoulder for pressure to push forward against to partially counter rearward head thrust.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
Unclenick is offline  
Old October 20, 2017, 03:26 PM   #20
odette
Junior Member
 
Join Date: September 21, 2010
Posts: 10
I do factory crimp with a Lee die now. I used to "not crimp" because I mainly shoot TC Contenders, but I feel more comfortable with everything with the same crimp. It just makes each round more the same as the others for a more consistent load, but I fully prep my brass and only buy quantities of brass from the same lot.
odette is offline  
Old October 22, 2017, 08:41 AM   #21
Sea Buck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2008
Location: New England,Florida Snow Bird
Posts: 292
Thank you for all the response. I am using my T/C Contender in .357 Magnum for hunting. I am loading 180 gr Hornady XTP, and 158 gr JHP. The XTP are new , the 158 JHP are at least 25 yrs old from a coffee can stored under my bench, from when I was a regular shooter and much younger.
Sea Buck is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2017 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08356 seconds with 10 queries