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Old September 12, 2018, 06:21 PM   #26
FairWarning
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In practical terms, I'd say .270 Win. It works, you can always find them (cheap), and they have totally acceptable recoil.

Me being me, I always like having something different once I feel it is proven----JUST BECAUSE it's interesting to me.

I've long used the "German .30-06" aka full Euro spec 8mm Mauser at the ranges I realistically hunt at (300 yds or less). However, if you actually expect to take long shots often, the best 6.5 - 7mms are hard to beat. I've been studying 6.5 Creedmoor a lot lately. The muzzle energy isn't that impressive, but you don't shoot game at point blank range, right? Due to the extremely high ballistic coefficient, it still packs a big percentage of its muzzle energy at 400-500+ yds, much more than macho rounds such as .30-06 and flatter shooting to boot. Creedmoor was designed only very recently as a long distance target shooting round not long ago, but has been gaining popularity in hunting.

Very interesting article here for Elk cartridges:

https://www.fieldandstream.com/12-be...hunting#page-4
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Old September 12, 2018, 08:37 PM   #27
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Oh I know all about them Nathan. I live with them all around me, and I stalk them all, every year. Mule Deer, Elk and Antelope as well as White Tail deer about 2 years every 3. I don't get White Tail tags about 1/3 of the time I apply.

But in the last 28 years I have not made a shot over 425 on any game animal, and I have not felt any need to.

I have now killed 8 antelope with revolvers with issue iron sights. 4" and 6" barrels. None were hard to hit. One was at about 125 yards and all the rest were between 30 yards and 65 yards.

Most hunters believe they know about hunting Antelope from reading articles in magazines, which are written to make the event seem far more difficult so it retains the glamor-game idea in the minds of the readers, but the real truth is that they are not all that hard to stalk. You need only remember that a man on his belly can hide behind very small brush, rocks and in shallow dry washes. If you are not afraid to get your belt-buckle dirty they are not all that hard to kill.

I killed one with a rifle, (Ruger #1 in 9.3X74R) 7 years ago that was so close I blew hair off it's chest with my muzzle blast. Muzzle was about 16 inches from it when I fired.

Now THAT one was a thrill!
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Old September 12, 2018, 09:02 PM   #28
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Antelope are curious little critters. My friend would bow hunt them using a big white cloth; he would hide behind a piece of sage brush and wave that big piece of white cloth - the antelopes would be curious enough to come close enough for a fast bow draw and shot.......
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Old September 12, 2018, 09:32 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan

Quote:
Originally Posted by taylorce1
...That statement makes absolutely no sense to me, there are a lot of bullets that work in that velocity range for 6.5 mm cartridges.....
I agree, except 6.5 creed launches the bigger hunting bullets at ~2600 FPS. That is too slow to reliably expand at range.....my opinion.....also, my opinion is that I don’t want to shoot 110 gr bullets to get expansion velocity.
Now you're making even less sense IMO. How fast do those "bigger" hunting bullets loose velocity? The 143 ELDX is still over 2000 FPS at 500 yards, I'm pretty sure that bullet will expand just fine at that speed. You're way over thinking things.
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Old September 12, 2018, 10:36 PM   #30
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Any caliber aforementioned I'm good with. So long as the cartridge is accurate? It's a can do!__ "No if's and's or but's here"
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Old September 13, 2018, 05:31 AM   #31
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I have not seen the .45-70 mention,why?
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Old September 13, 2018, 11:21 AM   #32
Don Fischer
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Originally Posted by Tallest View Post
Sorry, but this statement seems to stand on its head. "Learn to hunt first"...? Before getting a hunting rifle? Who among us has learned to hunt without going out to do it?
I suspect probably most of us! Who grabbed a rifle and headed out to see his first deer? Not me! First deer I ever saw I was young enough that I likely wanted to get closer and pet it. I can actually remember feeding animal cracker's to wild deer when I was a kid! Lofting a bullet 500 yds at a game animal and hoping for the best has never occurred to me. Taking a shot at 300yds has but I've only done that one time to sooth my ego. With most any cartridge you can sight in to hold dead on and make a good hit to 300 yds. Very few will allow more and I doubt any will do that to 400 yds. A whole lot of guy's talk about the need for a 500 yd rifle but damn few ever practice at that range and fewer still have the ability to shoot well at that range.

Sorry but, IMO the mans statement is extremely well though out!
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Old September 13, 2018, 11:44 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Don Fischer View Post
I suspect probably most of us! Who grabbed a rifle and headed out to see his first deer? Not me! First deer I ever saw I was young enough that I likely wanted to get closer and pet it. I can actually remember feeding animal cracker's to wild deer when I was a kid! Lofting a bullet 500 yds at a game animal and hoping for the best has never occurred to me. Taking a shot at 300yds has but I've only done that one time to sooth my ego. With most any cartridge you can sight in to hold dead on and make a good hit to 300 yds. Very few will allow more and I doubt any will do that to 400 yds. A whole lot of guy's talk about the need for a 500 yd rifle but damn few ever practice at that range and fewer still have the ability to shoot well at that range.

Sorry but, IMO the mans statement is extremely well though out!
I'm not talking about going out in diapers carrying a gun...

And why assert that I'm implying knowledge of deer is the same thing as intention to hunt?

All the hunting academics out there are no substitute for field learning under the tutelage of experience.

But yes, the statement made more sense once he elaborated. But at the point of my response it sounded like a condescending blow off.
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Old September 13, 2018, 04:01 PM   #34
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How fast do those "bigger" hunting bullets loose velocity? The 143 ELDX is still over 2000 FPS at 500 yards, I'm pretty sure that bullet will expand just fine at that speed. You're way over thinking things.
Oh, I’m sure about that. I am overthinking things....almost every bolt action rifle ever made from 6mm-416 caliber can get the job done. Nothing wrong with trying to find your own best!

You do have to admit that bullet with it’s 0.625 bc is an abnormal...it must be 2” long!


Quote:
I have not seen the .45-70 mention,why?
Because mine hurts off a lead sled! I’m gonna say at hunting velocity, recoil is too high!

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Old September 13, 2018, 08:52 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan
You do have to admit that bullet with it’s 0.625 bc is an abnormal...it must be 2” long!
1.44" long and not abnormal at all when that was the cartridge the bullet was designed for. Every load Hornady has suitable for hunting deer in 6.5 Creedmoor has over 2000 FPS at 500 yards save one and it'sthe 120 grain GMX load and it comes in at 1975 FPS at 500 yards. Don't overthink it buy a rifle 6.5 to .308, pick a good bullet and go kill game.
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Old September 14, 2018, 06:07 AM   #36
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Hey, I also overthink things like this, so you’re in good company.

If I had to use a short action round to hunt everything from antelope to elk at long ranges, I would choose the 270 WSM with a 150 grain bullet. Second choice would be the 300 WSM, which you already have.

Now, If I added the requirements of staying under 20 lbs of recoil AND leaving the barrel between 2800-3100 fps AND using a standard rim size, I guess I would choose the 308 shooting a 150 grain TSX or Partition as fast as I could. Would have to be a tough bullet that could hold together and retain its weight so it would penetrate properly.

There is a solution out there.

Ps. People, we all know the 270 Win isn’t short action. So why recommend it when the OP clearly stated that as a foundational requirement?
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Old September 14, 2018, 06:45 AM   #37
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Ps. People, we all know the 270 Win isn’t short action. So why recommend it when the OP clearly stated that as a foundational requirement?
Because in the OP the .473 case head and 2800 to 3100 fps pushes the choices down to the .243 and .260,and the OP listed the .280 as an option.

Which tells me the short action criteria is not absolute.He said "preferred"

Life is all about tradeoffs and compromises.

Its also true that some rifles use the same receiver for long and short,they just block the mag.

If "short bolt throw" is the reason...I might consider that a cartridge like the 270 easily fulfills the rest of my criteria with one small compromise.
If bolt throw /follow upshot is the rationale...

Well,imagine this.You are in the woods,opening day.

In the distance,you hear "Boom" then silence. Likely story? Tag filled.

You hear another....Boom,then 5 or 10 secomds,and "boom" again. Likely story? Finished him.Filled tag.

You hear "Boom..boom...boom....boom..boom" Wow! All in 12 seconds! Rapid follow up shots. Likely story? Not good.
Its nice to have a follow up available.

But stroking a long action isn't the critical factor. Frankly,if short action is important,then compromise mag capacity for a WSM. If your animal is not down after three shots,does a fourth and fifth matter?

The first one is your best opportunity.
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Old September 14, 2018, 06:59 AM   #38
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Re .270. It is not a short action but the better .270 WSM is. Great hunting round. I have one and a 300 WSM both are a pleasure to shoot compared to something like a 30-06.
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Old September 14, 2018, 10:46 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC
Because in the OP the .473 case head and 2800 to 3100 fps pushes the choices down to the .243 and .260,and the OP listed the .280 as an option
Not even close to the only choices being .243 Win and .260 Rem. Just go to Midway USA and look at ammunition choices available for the 6.5 CM, 7-08, and .308 and you'll find you have plenty of options of ammunition that works with the velocity range the OP is wanting. Now every rifle is different and some may not be as fast but I'm guessing the OP can find something that fits in his velocity range suitable for elk in those three cartridge choices.

I found six choices of bullets suitable for elk in the 6.5 CM with a starting velocity of 2825-3010 all were mono metal bullets except the 129 Accubond LR. If you can't get 2800 fps out of a 140 grain bullet in 7-08 you aren't trying very hard and the mono metal 120's are pushing 3000+ fps. .308 Win has 150 grain bullets at 2800+ fps with ease, and a 125-130 grain mono metals at 3125. The other thing was every single tipped mono metal bullet was designed to work at 1800 fps minimum for expansion, and that would put you at 500 yards for most at sea level. If hunting elk in MT due to elevation you'll be get at least another 100 yards of distance before you fall below the minimum impact speed for expansion with mono metal bullets easily getting all to a 500 yard range.

You can get even get there with the .338 Federal according to Barnes Data with 160 grain TTSX bullets. You can also get to the 2790-2815 with 180 grain Nosler AB and 185 grain Barnes TTSX bullets according to load data. However, you are far limiting your options in bullets and substantially increasing recoil to get there with the .338 Fed.
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Old September 14, 2018, 11:02 AM   #40
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Quote:
Just go to Midway USA and look at ammunition choices available
Well,thats fine.I tend to be skeptical of advertised velocity.The numbers make sales.

You can elk hunt with any bullet that makes you happy.I would tend to pick 150 or heavier for elk in 7mm.

Then I go over to the Hogdon reloading site and look at the max load velocities.

Looking at over 30 powders,one just touched 2800 with a 150 gr bullet

IMO,with the 260 I acknowledged the 6.5 s could do it.But,if we return to Hogdon and look up the 6.5 CM with a 130 gr AccuBond (a reasonable elk bullet)not one max load exceeded,or reached,2700 fps

For the 308,on another 308 for elk thread,general concensus is 165 to 180 gr bullets Wyosmith leans toward 180s.

Going back to Hogdon,one max load slightly exceeds 2800 fps.

As I said,I take advertised velocities with a grain of salt.I have a good chrono.

In fact,I did not research before I made the post you take issue with.

The research I just did to answer you,from Hogdon,satisfies me I was correct.

And you may read your charts of advertised ballistics.I won't argue.No doubt they are printed someplace.They must be true

Last edited by HiBC; September 14, 2018 at 11:21 AM.
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Old September 14, 2018, 12:49 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC
You can elk hunt with any bullet that makes you happy.I would tend to pick 150 or heavier for elk in 7mm.
I'd kill elk with a 120 grain Barnes bullet since it'll probably retain 100% of its weight and penetrate just as deep if not deeper than your 150 grain. Mono metal and bonded projectiles have changed the game for hunting we are now able to do more with less than we used to. Staying stuck in the past doesn't mean it won't work, it's just not the only option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC
The research I just did to answer you,from Hogdon,satisfies me I was correct.
Research from only one data sources is skewed at best. I love Hogdon powders but they don't always give the results I want. There is a lot more data out there that gets 150 grain 7mm bullets to 2800 FPS out of the 7-08 with other powders and even some with Hogdon/IMR/Winchester powders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC
Looking at over 30 powders,one just touched 2800 with a 150 gr bullet
7mm-08 Data
Hornady load data 154 grain bullets.
RL-17 2800 FPS
H414 2800 FPS

Nosler Data 150 grain
Ramshot Hunter 2801 FPS
RL-15 2802 FPS
H414 2800 FPS
RL-19 2862 FPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC
if we return to Hogdon and look up the 6.5 CM with a 130 gr AccuBond (a reasonable elk bullet)not one max load exceeded,or reached,2700 fps
Why not go to Nosler's online resource for 130 grain data for your reasonable elk bullet?

Nosler Data 129 gr ABLR & 130 gr AB
RL-15 2810 FPS max load, most accurate load tested!
Varget 2812 FPS
W748 2822 FPS
Big Game 2839 FPS
H4350 2865 FPS
W760 2906 FPS
H100V 2800 FPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiBC
For the 308,on another 308 for elk thread,general concensus is 165 to 180 gr bullets Wyosmith leans toward 180s.
Barnes #4 data 165 grain
W748 2839 FPS
BL-C(2) 2850 FPS
CFE 223 2877 FPS

Alliant Data
PP 2000 MR 165 Speer TBBC 2830 FPS
PP 2000 MR 165 Speer SPBT 2840 FPS
PP 2000 MR 165 Federal Fusion 2910 FPS

Hornady Data 165 grain
PP 2000 MR 2863

Nosler Data 165 grain
RL-15 2820 FPS
Big Game 2910 FPS
Varget 2820 FPS

Swift Data 165 A-Frame
RL-15 2815 FPS
IMR 4064 2811 FPS
IMR 4895 2810 FPS

I find Hogdon's online resource good as well but not my only resource. Plus I really tend to like the bullet manufacturers data a bit better, since it is specific to the bullet I'm actually going to be shooting. However, I do have to rely on data from the powder manufacturer at times just because the bullet company may not have data on that powder yet. Just because I find data that says I can get there doesn't mean my rifle will allow me to, just like some factory ammunition is as fast as advertised and some isn't. A lot just depends on the rifle.
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Old October 8, 2018, 07:08 PM   #42
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270 for me too, hands down !!!!
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Old October 9, 2018, 03:13 AM   #43
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284 Win?

If you handload
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Old October 9, 2018, 07:35 AM   #44
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Thanks for all the feedback and help. I went with a 6.5x55 on a Ruger action. My second choice was 7-08....6.5 creed is also in the hunt.

On a positive note, my nieces just went through hunters’ safety and I maybe helping the family look for a suitable rifle....6.5 Creedmoor handloaded might be a great choice.

So, the old school side of me says these rounds don’t make 1500 ft lbs at distance, but it seems like velocity is how bullet makers judge if the bullet will perform. These high bc rounds really carry!
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Old October 11, 2018, 05:06 PM   #45
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I am crushed, you mean the 270 did not make the cut it not even on the list, how could this happen ??
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Old October 11, 2018, 07:25 PM   #46
Tallest
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
Thanks for all the feedback and help. I went with a 6.5x55 on a Ruger action. My second choice was 7-08....6.5 creed is also in the hunt.



On a positive note, my nieces just went through hunters’ safety and I maybe helping the family look for a suitable rifle....6.5 Creedmoor handloaded might be a great choice.



So, the old school side of me says these rounds don’t make 1500 ft lbs at distance, but it seems like velocity is how bullet makers judge if the bullet will perform. These high bc rounds really carry!


Excellent choice!!


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Old October 11, 2018, 11:15 PM   #47
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7mm-08 AI. 280 Rem performance with less pressure, powder, and recoil. Meets all of the requirements but is a handloaders job. But even the standard 7mm-08 is plenty for what you are asking of it. Commercial velocity figures might not always quite meet your specs but can still certainly meet the need.

I’m fond of the various 308 based cartridges. They’ve proven themselves. I’d opt for a .260 Rem over the Creedmore. And the .308 Win is a great caliber too, but just needs a heavier bullet to achieve the same BC. I’m one who appreciates efficiency and so I’ve gravitated towards many short action cartridges, Ackley Improved, and high BC’s for sectional densities. You just get more for what you started with.

.264” is a little bit small for large game like elk. Not to say it doesn’t or can’t work. Even the 6.5mm Grendel has been used for elk around 400 yds.
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