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Old October 5, 2018, 05:10 PM   #1
unclejack37
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different weight defensive bulllets

A while ago We had a discussion about defensive bullets. I mentioned I used 2 different types for my EDC. I alternate a 85 grain fragmenting bullet and a 147 grain Hornady Custom XTP. Someone mentioned that because of the difference in bullet weights it may cause a point of impact location problem. I never considered the weight difference of the bullets being a problem, so I decided to see for myself.
The top target is 125 grain JRN bullet fired from my Beretta Nano at a distance of 21 feet, slow fire.
The bottom target is the alternating 85 grain fragmenting and 147 grain Hornady Custom XTP same gun, same distance, same rate of fire.
I didn't notice any difference between the two. Does anyone else mix their defensive ammo for their EDC?
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Old October 5, 2018, 08:09 PM   #2
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I've heard of it, but I've never heard an explanation that was good enough to make me feel the need to mix ammo in my EDC.
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Old October 5, 2018, 08:36 PM   #3
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No sir. Different weight and form factor projectiles drop at different rates.
I like to use the same, yielding results like this (50 rounds):

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Old October 6, 2018, 12:01 AM   #4
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I don't think it a good idea to mix ammo. Pick a good one and go with it.

As far as POI being different; it just depends. Sometimes the difference is enough to matter, sometimes not. Someone else, with different ammo choices in a different gun might get very different results than you did.

And what you do with slow aimed fire may not be the same results you get in a rapid fire defensive situation. There should be a noticeable difference in recoil. That could make a difference in rapid fire.
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Old October 6, 2018, 07:29 AM   #5
unclejack37
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I love a good discussion especially about guns. According to everything I've read about defensive shootings it's more likely to happen within a distance of 20 feet. I believe, at that distance with a 3 inch barrel (or shorter) different weight bullets are not going to have any kind of measurable effect on the drop rate or point of impact. I don't believe that defensive bullets are as important as our training but I like the idea of having something different just in case something isn't working like it should and that's why I use different bullets in my EDC.
The target pictures was to see the effect of different weight bullets. I didn't see any noticeable differences I'll continue to use them, just in case.
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Old October 6, 2018, 02:51 PM   #6
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85gr fragmenting bullets for self defense are gimmick bullets. Find and use something with good real life creds.
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Old October 6, 2018, 03:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
but I like the idea of having something different just in case something isn't working like it should and that's why I use different bullets in my EDC.
what if the "something that isn't working" is that different weight bullet?? If that's the case then you're reducing the effective ammo capacity of your weapon with every round of the different load.


And at 21 FEET the difference in trajectory isn't worth worrying about. At 25 YARDS, it can be a different matter.
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Old October 6, 2018, 04:53 PM   #8
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I don't believe that defensive bullets are as important as our training but I like the idea of having something different just in case something isn't working like it should and that's why I use different bullets in my EDC.
Contradictory statement. It is a training issue, not an ammunition issue. Practice failure drills. Carry enough gun, sorry a 380 is marginal at best.
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Old October 6, 2018, 07:34 PM   #9
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Hey guys thanks for the come back. Like I said I like discussing guns. Allow me to address some of the responses.

Fragmenting bullets are not gimmick bullets check out this u-tube gel test
https://youtu.be/xh_Xudx_9cE
And at 21 FEET the difference in trajectory isn't worth worrying about. At 25 YARDS, it can be a different matter.
If you shoot a bad guy 25 yards away instead of running in the other direction and claim self defense you better have a damn good lawyer. That's 75 feet away!

Contradictory statement. It is a training issue, not an ammunition issue. Practice failure drills. Carry enough gun, sorry a 380 is marginal at best.
In the opening statement I said I use a Beretta nano it's a 9mm not a 380 and I do use the defensive ammo in my training secessions. The picture shows one of those training secessions. When ever I decide to switch defensive ammo I always run a box or 2 thru my EDC to make sure it cycles. The one thing I do want to do now is carry a larger capacity of ammo, like 14 rds instead of 8 rds. I'm looking at a Sig P320 15 rds.

Just because someone uses something different or does things different doesn't mean it right or wrong or everyone should do it this way or that way. It all breaks down to how it works for you. Are you comfortable with it and are you willing to bet your life on it if you have to.
For me I'm very comfortable with the defensive ammo I carry. From the responses I got I don't think anyone else uses different defensive ammo in their EDC. It seems most depend on the JHP only. What about the new RIP bullet from G2RAmmo, its 95 grs https://youtu.be/mJGH7cDFw7c
What about using polymer bullets along with JHP. Winchester Hybrid-X, 9mm
I'll be the first to say that JHP is one of the most used and very effective defensive ammo, but more and more law enforcement agencies are switching to more modern and more effective bullets like the RIP and fragmenting bullets.There's been a lot of times when the Hollow Point did not mushroom and just went in and out without slowing down the bad guy. Just something else to think about.
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Old October 6, 2018, 11:35 PM   #10
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I doubt I'll ever need to shoot a person at 25yds, but I do shoot a number of things, including predators at that distance and further, and I might need to do it with my defense gun. So if there is a couple inches (or more?) difference between the point of impact of different loads, I DON'T want them mixed in my gun.

All of one, or all of the other, fine. I'll know where each one hits, and aim accordingly. Mix them together, every other round, or some other combination, I'd never be certain which one was being fired, and that could be very important.
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Old October 7, 2018, 03:59 AM   #11
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What about the new RIP bullet from G2RAmmo, its 95 gr
Its also an overpriced gimmick.
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Old October 7, 2018, 05:48 AM   #12
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44 AMP, I hear what your saying and I've experienced what you mentioned. Walking my property in South Carolina A Hugh hog came out about 20 yards in front of me. All I had was my Nano. After drawing it I realized that I would only piss it off. Luckily, it ran away. Now I walk the 83 acres with a 44 cal Blackhawk with 6-240 gr JHP praying that big old hog comes out again. That's a different scenario from a bad guy standing 20 feet in front of you wanting all you got.
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Old October 7, 2018, 05:36 PM   #13
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Fragmenting bullets are not gimmick bullets check out this u-tube gel test
https://youtu.be/xh_Xudx_9cE
Max cavity at 3” and a jacket fragment at 7”? That’s pretty much the definition of a gimmick bullet.
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Old October 8, 2018, 05:31 AM   #14
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I like the idea of consistent & reliable performance with proven ammo. Some very small number of people like a few FMJ at the bottom of the magazine for barrier penetration, but I really don't think that's a reasonable concern.

However, I really don't see the point of alternating JHP's and gimmick rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejack37 View Post
but I like the idea of having something different just in case something isn't working like it should and that's why I use different bullets in my EDC.
If a conventional JHP clogs and overpenetrates, there's still the chance to hit a vital at the risk of liability. If a novelty round impacts bone or a limb and underpenetrates, there's an increased risk of failure to stop. Which is a worse scenario is up to you, I suppose.

Quote:
Fragmenting bullets are not gimmick bullets check out this u-tube gel test
https://youtu.be/xh_Xudx_9cE
I didn't find it particularly convincing. It makes a mess a few inches in, sure, but then the unexpanded core penetrates less than a FMJ .380. It's trading an extremely shallow messy cavity for the potential to impact vitals. Except, that's against gel. How does it behave if a skeleton or limb hit is involved?

Quote:
What about the new RIP bullet from G2RAmmo, its 95 grs https://youtu.be/mJGH7cDFw7c
What about it? The video is a bunch of Glock 18 magazine dumps and nonsense about turbulence, hole saws, acoustic waves being sent along predictable vectors, conservation of potential energy , and other pseudoscientific doubletalk. Hold a ruler up to a gel block, and then we'll talk.

Quote:
What about using polymer bullets along with JHP. Winchester Hybrid-X,
More gimmick rounds resulting in limited penetration at the expense of a short messy cavity.

Quote:
but more and more law enforcement agencies are switching to more modern and more effective bullets like the RIP and fragmenting bullets.There's been a lot of times when the Hollow Point did not mushroom and just went in and out without slowing down the bad guy.
Which agencies have switched to the RIP or other novelty rounds? What times did JHP's ineffectively overpenetrate? Is ineffectual overpenetration worse than ineffectual underpenetration?
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Old October 8, 2018, 06:45 PM   #15
unclejack37
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You all need to get more. Did you ever hear of "armytimes". Here's a good article that got some information about hollow points and fragmenting bullets. It's all about transferring energy and creating a larger wound cavity after penetration.
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...or-new-pistol/
Read the article, the video covers the articles of war on use of hollow points. The Army is testing a new bullet (M855A1) that can pass thru steel and glass and the damage it causes to soft tissue is classified. A fragmenting hollow point maybe?
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Old October 8, 2018, 08:10 PM   #16
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A little more research on the M855A1 fragmenting bullet. Liberty says the ND 5.56mm will penetrate NATO steel, oblique glass, and level IIIA body armor, and an aluminum engine block, while fragmenting up to 9 pieces in soft tissue.(google Cheaper than dirt M855A1)
Seriously now, fragmenting bullets are not gimmick bullets now that our military and law-enforcement is using them as standard issue since 2015.
Now I have to admit the military is using the ammo in long guns only right now and it will not be sold to the public yet. I think its just a matter of time that Liberty Ammunitions comes up with something similar for us. Liberty makes its National Defense 5.56x45mm Product Number T3(CS)-556×45 available only to military and law-enforcement buyers, according to the company’s website listing.
Quote:
but more and more law enforcement agencies are switching to more modern and more effective bullets like the RIP and fragmenting bullets.
I thought I remembered saying that.
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Old October 9, 2018, 04:02 AM   #17
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The Army Times and anything produced by Military Times is infotainment at best.

The M855A1 is not a fragmenting round and its "classified" terminal performance was only a measure for the manufacturer to protect its product during testing. The articles that claim it as such are 4-5 years old.
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Old October 9, 2018, 05:50 AM   #18
unclejack37
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No sorry Rob228 you're wrong. The M855A1 is a fragmenting bullet, the article in Cheap than Dirt not Army times says so.
Quote:
while fragmenting up to 9 pieces in soft tissue.(google Cheaper than dirt M855A1)
Do yourself a favor, instead of arguing with me about it being a fragmenting bullet, Google Cheaper than dirt M855A1 and read the entire article and what the manufacturer of the M855A1 says about the M855A1 metal piercing fragmenting bullet. Our arm forces and police enforcement having been using the M855A1 since 2015.
Geez, all you seniors (LOL)
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Old October 9, 2018, 06:06 AM   #19
Rob228
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Cheapterthandirt is not on my list of reliable sources.

It is a three piece bullet, the most it is going to break up into is 3 pieces, just like the M855 that came before it.

Maybe do some more reading, pay attention to the gel test portion and why the terminal effects look like they do, it is not because of fragmentation:

http://smallarmssolutions.com/home/the-m855a1
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Old October 9, 2018, 07:17 AM   #20
unclejack37
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Quote:
Cheapterthandirt is not on my list of reliable sources.

It is a three piece bullet, the most it is going to break up into is 3 pieces, just like the M855 that came before it.

Maybe do some more reading, pay attention to the gel test portion and why the terminal effects look like they do, it is not because of fragmentation:
Rob228, do you bother reading all of the article you post?
I copied this from the article you posted and from the gel test you claim is not caused by fragmentation...... The M855A1 completely fragmented, retained nothing. The M855 retained 48.2% of its weight.

Rob, I'm saying fragmenting bullets are not all gimmick bullets and you say they are gimmick bullets. I showed that the armed forces and police enforcement think the same way; that fragmenting bullets work. The M855A1 is an example of a fragmenting bullet. You posted an article and ask me to pay attention to the gel test results, its not because of fragmentation, but under the picture of the gel test of the M855A1 it says the bullet completely fragmented retained nothing while the M855 retained 42% of its weight. Everything I posted and everything you posted says the M855A1 is a fragmenting bullet and the M855 is not a fragmenting bullet. Fragmenting bullets are indeed used by law enforcement and the military.

I will say this. The M588A1 is a long gun fragmenting bullet. Maybe in a couple of years someone will come up with a bullet that can impart all of the force generated from a hand gun bullet to cause enough damage to stop a threat with 1 shot to center mass.
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Old October 9, 2018, 03:16 PM   #21
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You won't see much difference at 21 feet (7 yards). You may not see much difference even at 45 feet (15 yards). You will notice the difference at 75 feet (25 yards).
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Old October 11, 2018, 07:13 PM   #22
Bartholomew Roberts
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Originally Posted by unclejack37
The M855A1 completely fragmented, retained nothing. The M855 retained 48.2% of its weight.
I don’t even have to read the article to know that’s horse poop. The larger steel penetrator on M855A1 is fragmenting completely?

https://usarmorment.com/pdf/M855A1.pdf

Not that this has anything to do with your gimmick handgun bullet.
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Old October 11, 2018, 09:54 PM   #23
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For defensive carry, I like the heaviest, slowest bullet I can find, for a given caliber.
One of the reasons 45ACP is effective and popular.
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