does anyone believe remington box velocity?

PocketCamera · August 27, 2020, 03:05 AM

my rifle is sighted in for ppu 147 grain m80 ball. it hits exactly with federal trophy copper 150 grain HP.

I sampled remington corelokt 150 grain psp, and the velocity is the same nominal 2800 fps. my issue is that,,,

the remington was hitting 8 inches low. and a very large 4 inch group.

can the same barrel length loss from factory test barrel down to 18" make that much of a trajectory change for the remington, IF its going the actual stated box velocity?

jmr40 · August 27, 2020, 06:55 PM

Most all factory loads will shoot somewhat slower in common factory barrels. The manufacturers typically use high quality test barrels 24" long to test accuracy and measure velocity with factory loads. Usually 26" with magnum rounds.

Most factory barrels, even of the same length, are not of the same quality and velocity will generally be slower, sometimes significantly slower. If Remington says they got 2800 fps, they got 2800 fps from their barrel. But your barrel, even if it is the same 24", might be under 2700 fps.

My 24" barrel on the other hand may actually shoot the same ammo to 2800 fps. There is that much difference between individual barrels. It wouldn't be unusual to see an individual 20" barrel shoot as fast, or even faster than another 24" barrel.

In 308 class cartridges you lose 10-15 fps for each inch shorter than you would from a 24" barrel. So I'd expect 60-90 fps less from your 18" barrel.

But none of that will account for 8" of bullet drop at 100 yards. When the bullet is moving down the barrel the barrel isn't stationary. It is vibrating. As long as it moves exactly the same for each shot, and the bullet leaves the muzzle while the barrel is in the same position for each shot the bullets will impact close together.

That is happening with the 147 gr ball and 150 gr Federal ammo. But the 150 gr Remington ammo is producing a different set of vibrations in your barrel and leaving the muzzle while the barrel is in a different position causing a different point of impact.

Based on velocity alone you won't see more than a fraction of an inch difference in bullet drop at 100 yards. You'd have to be shooting at several hundred yards to see 8" difference if it were just velocity and everything else being the same.

Double K · August 27, 2020, 08:21 PM

In have four 7-08 Remington's, three 700's , three have 24" barrels, I use the same Varget 140bt load for all three, none of them chronograph at the same velocity, one is almost 100fps slower and it was from day one when it was new. The 4th gun is a model 7 with a 20" barrel and it chronograph's 150fps slower than the 2 guns I would call average.
Barrel length matters, round count and interior barrel dimensions matter.

PocketCamera · August 28, 2020, 12:14 AM

but its still unsettling to have that much, difference in impact points. its like sight the gun in for 158 grain swc leaving a 357 magnum case at 1200fps, and then switching to 38 short colt loads

Double K · August 28, 2020, 12:21 AM

Barrel vibration effects point of impact as well.
Are you trying to practice with ball ammunition for hunting or what's the concern?

PocketCamera · August 28, 2020, 01:01 AM

ppu m80 ball, my MOST, is considered "barn burning"/test the bumpstock/draftee/canon fodder sort of ammunition.. its not expected to be accurate.

so when the "crap" ammunition has the same poi/poa with premium federal trophy copper, to the point that i can have someone mix some up in the same magazine and the group is the same as if i fired pure trophy copper, i believe that the remington ammuniton with same weight, slightly less pointy shape, but same velocity SHOULD

hit within a reasonable distance from the center of the target. or at the very least, stay inside 2 MOA at 100 yards, and not go out to i remember 6 MOA.. at 100 off a rest.

mikejonestkd · August 28, 2020, 09:55 AM

Quote:

i believe that the remington ammuniton with same weight, slightly less pointy shape, but same velocity SHOULD

As already mentioned above- barrel harmonics play a huge role in POI. Even the same weight bullets from different manufacturers can shoot to significantly different points of aim out of the same gun.

Clearly your rifle does not like Remington 150 gr bullets. No big deal, just don't buy any more of them.

big al hunter · August 28, 2020, 09:23 PM

I have owned many rifles in my life, and shot many more. Only 1 of those would put everything I shot out of it to close to the same point of impact. It was a Ruger 77 in 338 win mag. That rifle put 200, 225 and 250 grain bullets of several makes to about the same place on the target. When I changed ammo it usually shifted an inch or so at 100 yds.

On the other hand I have a Rem. 700 in 243 win that shoots tiny little groups of 100 grain bullets 9" higher and 2" right of a tiny group of 55 grain bullets.

As stated above by others, different bullets usually hit in a different place on the target. As far as my experience goes, you are lucky it shoots 2 types to the same place.

PocketCamera · August 28, 2020, 11:52 PM

its good rifle. likes my handloaded cast lead, plinking load i admit but it puts a baseball size group to poi/poa as my hunting ammo.

lead round ball moving at perhaps 500 fps,have a nice 8 inch drop at 30 yards

hdbiker · August 31, 2020, 01:36 PM

NO, ammo manufactures develop their numbers in labs on precision equpt. not hunting rifles. hdbiker

buck460XVR · September 1, 2020, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketCamera

IF its going the actual stated box velocity?

So many variables along with barrel length, that getting the stated velocity from your firearm would be pretty rare. So would different ammo hitting the exact same POI from the same POA.

GeauxTide · September 1, 2020, 04:56 PM

Stick with the ammo that shoots in your rifle. I've never had any Rem green box shoot better than 2" in multiple calibers. There's a reason it sells for under $20 a box. Bullet and powder weight variances have been my findings over the years.

reynolds357 · September 4, 2020, 03:09 PM

Lower velocity in same bullet can shoot higher than a higher velocity load.

Don Fischer · September 5, 2020, 11:59 AM

Probably nothing will drive you crazy faster than getting a chronograph and finding out no ammo shoot's right! In the old days, pre-chronograph our loads were going how ever fast the manuals said and factory stuff was going as fast and the manufacturer said it was. Chronograph's made that pretty inconvenient!

Scorch · September 6, 2020, 01:18 AM

Quote:

does anyone believe remington box velocity?

No. To paraphrase Mark Twain, there are lies, damned lies, and ballistic tables.

reynolds357 · September 6, 2020, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PocketCamera

my rifle is sighted in for ppu 147 grain m80 ball. it hits exactly with federal trophy copper 150 grain HP.

I sampled remington corelokt 150 grain psp, and the velocity is the same nominal 2800 fps. my issue is that,,,

the remington was hitting 8 inches low. and a very large 4 inch group.

can the same barrel length loss from factory test barrel down to 18" make that much of a trajectory change for the remington, IF its going the actual stated box velocity?

130 coreloct is faster in my 270 Win than published.

**44 AMP** · September 7, 2020, 11:48 AM

Take a look at the ammo box. Remington. or any of them. See if you find a statement that says the velocity you get will be what is printed on the box.

You won't.

Nor will you find any statement guaranteeing what that velocity, accuracy, or point of impact will be out of your gun.

Every gun is different. Often the differences are small, and we are lulled into thinking that guns are, or ought to be the same. They aren't. And neither is the ammo.

Go buy, rent, or borrow a chronograph. You'll probably be surprised at its results.

Double K · September 7, 2020, 02:18 PM

There was a time when Weatherby put the velocity on there boxes of 300 ammunition, they probably stopped when chronographs became commonplace.
You never know what you'll get in velocity from a rifle, I had 22-250 that I couldn't get more than 3250fps from a 55gr. bullet, my current 223 gets that with a 60gr. bullet, extremes on both side of the spectrum.

**44 AMP** · September 7, 2020, 11:09 PM

A friend of mine was once deeply in love with his .270 Weatherby. Until that homewrecker chronograph show him how he was deceived....

Turns out his 26" Weatherby Magnum, the queen of high velocity, was actually 30fps SLOWER than his 22" Winchester .270. As I recall, he broke up with the Weatherby soon after....

Its not that the ammo makers LIE, or anything like that, they don't. What they report is what they get in their test rigs and they have proof to back it up.

But, YOUR gun, and my gun are going to be different than their test rigs, and could be as different from each other as they are from the test guns.

Often the difference is small, so reported data may be used as GUIDELINES in general, but sometimes the difference is large

jimbob86 · September 8, 2020, 12:54 AM

They run hundreds (thousands?) of tests ....on the fastest running 24" (longer for magnum cartridges) test barrels they can get a hold of ..... hand lapped .... probably shoot a few dozen moly coated bullets through it first, if they found that helped in the past ..... whatever it takes to get the highest believable number they can put on the box ..... Marketing.

Double K · September 8, 2020, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

A friend of mine was once deeply in love with his .270 Weatherby. Until that homewrecker chronograph show him how he was deceived....

Turns out his 26" Weatherby Magnum, the queen of high velocity, was actually 30fps SLOWER than his 22" Winchester .270. As I recall, he broke up with the Weatherby soon after....

Its not that the ammo makers LIE, or anything like that, they don't. What they report is what they get in their test rigs and they have proof to back it up.

But, YOUR gun, and my gun are going to be different than their test rigs, and could be as different from each other as they are from the test guns.

Often the difference is small, so reported data may be used as GUIDELINES in general, but sometimes the difference is large

I had nearly the same experience with my cousin and his 300 weatherby, it chronographed a couple of hundred fps slower than his weatherby book claimed, at first he blamed my chronograph until we shot my 264wm through it and it was over what factory ammunition was supposed to be a good bit with my handloads.
That has not quelled his enthusiasm for those high gloss stocks and gold triggers one bit though.
I've considered getting a Terra mark in 6.5x300, probably make a fantastic elk rifle.

pete2 · September 8, 2020, 09:37 AM

In my old .270 the Win and Rem 130 factory loads shoot more or less same point of aim as mt hand loaded 130 Ballistic Tips. It's a stock Rugger 77, 22" bbl. 8" difference, I'd say bad bedding or bad bbl.

**44 AMP** · September 8, 2020, 01:03 PM

Quote:

I've considered getting a Terra mark in 6.5x300, probably make a fantastic elk rifle.

A fantastic long range cartridge, for sure. A fantastic elk rifle? Maybe... depends on where and how you hunt elk. And, how good you are.

Once met a guy who had just killed his 6th elk with his .243 Winchester. He thought the .243 was a great elk rifle. It was light, carried easily, didn't kick hardly at all, and worked great. It was so good, he was even considering buying a second box of ammunition for it!!

(6 elk taken, he still had half a box of ammo left...)

For HIM it was the perfect elk rifle. He hunted deep timber, longest shots were 90yards or less, and he only took neck shots. This did mean he saw a lot more elk than he would shoot at, and passed up a lot of shots other people would have tried.

Quote:

can the same barrel length loss from factory test barrel down to 18" make that much of a trajectory change for the remington, IF its going the actual stated box velocity?

Velocity loss from a shorter barrel will change the trajectory, however, its not the only factor involved, and which factors are dominant depend on the specific individual relationship between your rifle and the ammo used.

Sighted in for ammo A, shoots little groups, cool. Ammo B hits about the same place, also little groups, cool. Ammo R hits 8" low and gives 4" groups? I suspect something other than just a velocity difference is responsible.

reynolds357 · September 8, 2020, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

A friend of mine was once deeply in love with his .270 Weatherby. Until that homewrecker chronograph show him how he was deceived....

Turns out his 26" Weatherby Magnum, the queen of high velocity, was actually 30fps SLOWER than his 22" Winchester .270. As I recall, he broke up with the Weatherby soon after....

Its not that the ammo makers LIE, or anything like that, they don't. What they report is what they get in their test rigs and they have proof to back it up.

But, YOUR gun, and my gun are going to be different than their test rigs, and could be as different from each other as they are from the test guns.

Often the difference is small, so reported data may be used as GUIDELINES in general, but sometimes the difference is large

My 270 Wby 26" legitimately bests my 26" 270 Win by 300 FPS and my 22" WSM by 350.
My my 270 Win has a fast barrel.

Double K · September 8, 2020, 08:21 PM

270 Weatherby is definitely of their better cartridges IMO, I'm a big fan of the 270wsm, the one I've loaded for got factory published velocities and a bit more.
What did yours get?

August 27, 2020, 03:05 AM	#1
PocketCamera Junior member Join Date: August 13, 2020 Posts: 85	does anyone believe remington box velocity? my rifle is sighted in for ppu 147 grain m80 ball. it hits exactly with federal trophy copper 150 grain HP. I sampled remington corelokt 150 grain psp, and the velocity is the same nominal 2800 fps. my issue is that,,, the remington was hitting 8 inches low. and a very large 4 inch group. can the same barrel length loss from factory test barrel down to 18" make that much of a trajectory change for the remington, IF its going the actual stated box velocity?

August 27, 2020, 06:55 PM	#2
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,809	Most all factory loads will shoot somewhat slower in common factory barrels. The manufacturers typically use high quality test barrels 24" long to test accuracy and measure velocity with factory loads. Usually 26" with magnum rounds. Most factory barrels, even of the same length, are not of the same quality and velocity will generally be slower, sometimes significantly slower. If Remington says they got 2800 fps, they got 2800 fps from their barrel. But your barrel, even if it is the same 24", might be under 2700 fps. My 24" barrel on the other hand may actually shoot the same ammo to 2800 fps. There is that much difference between individual barrels. It wouldn't be unusual to see an individual 20" barrel shoot as fast, or even faster than another 24" barrel. In 308 class cartridges you lose 10-15 fps for each inch shorter than you would from a 24" barrel. So I'd expect 60-90 fps less from your 18" barrel. But none of that will account for 8" of bullet drop at 100 yards. When the bullet is moving down the barrel the barrel isn't stationary. It is vibrating. As long as it moves exactly the same for each shot, and the bullet leaves the muzzle while the barrel is in the same position for each shot the bullets will impact close together. That is happening with the 147 gr ball and 150 gr Federal ammo. But the 150 gr Remington ammo is producing a different set of vibrations in your barrel and leaving the muzzle while the barrel is in a different position causing a different point of impact. Based on velocity alone you won't see more than a fraction of an inch difference in bullet drop at 100 yards. You'd have to be shooting at several hundred yards to see 8" difference if it were just velocity and everything else being the same. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

August 27, 2020, 08:21 PM	#3
Double K Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 486	In have four 7-08 Remington's, three 700's , three have 24" barrels, I use the same Varget 140bt load for all three, none of them chronograph at the same velocity, one is almost 100fps slower and it was from day one when it was new. The 4th gun is a model 7 with a 20" barrel and it chronograph's 150fps slower than the 2 guns I would call average. Barrel length matters, round count and interior barrel dimensions matter. Last edited by Double K; August 27, 2020 at 08:27 PM.

August 28, 2020, 09:23 PM	#8
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	I have owned many rifles in my life, and shot many more. Only 1 of those would put everything I shot out of it to close to the same point of impact. It was a Ruger 77 in 338 win mag. That rifle put 200, 225 and 250 grain bullets of several makes to about the same place on the target. When I changed ammo it usually shifted an inch or so at 100 yds. On the other hand I have a Rem. 700 in 243 win that shoots tiny little groups of 100 grain bullets 9" higher and 2" right of a tiny group of 55 grain bullets. As stated above by others, different bullets usually hit in a different place on the target. As far as my experience goes, you are lucky it shoots 2 types to the same place. __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

September 1, 2020, 04:56 PM	#12
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	Stick with the ammo that shoots in your rifle. I've never had any Rem green box shoot better than 2" in multiple calibers. There's a reason it sells for under $20 a box. Bullet and powder weight variances have been my findings over the years. __________________ Reloading For: 223R, 243W, 6.5 GR, 6.5 CM, 260R, 6.5-06, 280R, 7mmRM, 300HAM'R, 308W, 30-06, 338-06, 9mm, 357M, 41M, 44SPL, 44M, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 450BM.

August 28, 2020, 12:14 AM	#4
PocketCamera Junior member Join Date: August 13, 2020 Posts: 85	but its still unsettling to have that much, difference in impact points. its like sight the gun in for 158 grain swc leaving a 357 magnum case at 1200fps, and then switching to 38 short colt loads

August 28, 2020, 12:21 AM	#5
Double K Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 486	Barrel vibration effects point of impact as well. Are you trying to practice with ball ammunition for hunting or what's the concern?

August 28, 2020, 01:01 AM	#6
PocketCamera Junior member Join Date: August 13, 2020 Posts: 85	ppu m80 ball, my MOST, is considered "barn burning"/test the bumpstock/draftee/canon fodder sort of ammunition.. its not expected to be accurate. so when the "crap" ammunition has the same poi/poa with premium federal trophy copper, to the point that i can have someone mix some up in the same magazine and the group is the same as if i fired pure trophy copper, i believe that the remington ammuniton with same weight, slightly less pointy shape, but same velocity SHOULD hit within a reasonable distance from the center of the target. or at the very least, stay inside 2 MOA at 100 yards, and not go out to i remember 6 MOA.. at 100 off a rest.

August 28, 2020, 11:52 PM	#9
PocketCamera Junior member Join Date: August 13, 2020 Posts: 85	its good rifle. likes my handloaded cast lead, plinking load i admit but it puts a baseball size group to poi/poa as my hunting ammo. lead round ball moving at perhaps 500 fps,have a nice 8 inch drop at 30 yards

August 31, 2020, 01:36 PM	#10
hdbiker Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2012 Posts: 297	NO, ammo manufactures develop their numbers in labs on precision equpt. not hunting rifles. hdbiker

September 4, 2020, 03:09 PM	#13
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Lower velocity in same bullet can shoot higher than a higher velocity load.

September 5, 2020, 11:59 AM	#14
Don Fischer Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2017 Posts: 1,868	Probably nothing will drive you crazy faster than getting a chronograph and finding out no ammo shoot's right! In the old days, pre-chronograph our loads were going how ever fast the manuals said and factory stuff was going as fast and the manufacturer said it was. Chronograph's made that pretty inconvenient!

September 7, 2020, 11:48 AM	#17
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	Take a look at the ammo box. Remington. or any of them. See if you find a statement that says the velocity you get will be what is printed on the box. You won't. Nor will you find any statement guaranteeing what that velocity, accuracy, or point of impact will be out of your gun. Every gun is different. Often the differences are small, and we are lulled into thinking that guns are, or ought to be the same. They aren't. And neither is the ammo. Go buy, rent, or borrow a chronograph. You'll probably be surprised at its results. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 7, 2020, 02:18 PM	#18
Double K Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 486	There was a time when Weatherby put the velocity on there boxes of 300 ammunition, they probably stopped when chronographs became commonplace. You never know what you'll get in velocity from a rifle, I had 22-250 that I couldn't get more than 3250fps from a 55gr. bullet, my current 223 gets that with a 60gr. bullet, extremes on both side of the spectrum.

September 7, 2020, 11:09 PM	#19
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	A friend of mine was once deeply in love with his .270 Weatherby. Until that homewrecker chronograph show him how he was deceived.... Turns out his 26" Weatherby Magnum, the queen of high velocity, was actually 30fps SLOWER than his 22" Winchester .270. As I recall, he broke up with the Weatherby soon after.... Its not that the ammo makers LIE, or anything like that, they don't. What they report is what they get in their test rigs and they have proof to back it up. But, YOUR gun, and my gun are going to be different than their test rigs, and could be as different from each other as they are from the test guns. Often the difference is small, so reported data may be used as GUIDELINES in general, but sometimes the difference is large __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 8, 2020, 12:54 AM	#20
jimbob86 Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2007 Location: All the way to NEBRASKA Posts: 8,722	They run hundreds (thousands?) of tests ....on the fastest running 24" (longer for magnum cartridges) test barrels they can get a hold of ..... hand lapped .... probably shoot a few dozen moly coated bullets through it first, if they found that helped in the past ..... whatever it takes to get the highest believable number they can put on the box ..... Marketing.

September 8, 2020, 09:37 AM	#22
pete2 Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 2,566	In my old .270 the Win and Rem 130 factory loads shoot more or less same point of aim as mt hand loaded 130 Ballistic Tips. It's a stock Rugger 77, 22" bbl. 8" difference, I'd say bad bedding or bad bbl.

September 8, 2020, 08:21 PM	#25
Double K Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2020 Location: Colorado Posts: 486	270 Weatherby is definitely of their better cartridges IMO, I'm a big fan of the 270wsm, the one I've loaded for got factory published velocities and a bit more. What did yours get?