Transfer of a gun with no serial number on it.

WillyKern69 · March 1, 2013, 05:29 PM

Dear All, a friend of mines father in law is terminal, he built a gun for himself back in the 60's. It never had a serial number. A semi auto handgun. He wants my friend to have the gun. But my friend is scared because he does not know how to handle the tranfer. So what should he do to keep things legal? I have seen post on this before, but when I did a search I did not find much. Also if the staff wants to direct this to that post that is cool.

Thanks in advance,

WK

Willie Sutton · March 1, 2013, 06:08 PM

It's legal to manufacture a firearm for ones own use.

They do not need to be marked in any way.

As long as there is no intent to manufacture for resale, they can be sold at a later date in order to dispose of them.

In any event, serial numbers were not required even on factory produced arms until 1968, and in the case of an older self-made firearm, "good luck" to a law enforcement case trying to prove date of manufacture.

From the face of it, there should be no problem in a transfer.

Willie

.

WillyKern69 · March 1, 2013, 06:19 PM

Thanks. does he have to go through a FFl or can he give it to him with a bill of sale?

WK

Willie Sutton · March 1, 2013, 06:30 PM

In Texas?

It's a private transfer... If the recipient is not known to the owner as a criminal, and is a resident of Texas, he can hand it over with a handshake and a smile and a pat on the back and a "I hope you enjoy this, son"....

This should be a family treasure.

Willie

.

WillyKern69 · March 1, 2013, 06:58 PM

Actually Idaho.
Thank you he will be excited.
WK

FrankenMauser · March 1, 2013, 10:33 PM

If it was made before 1968, it was not required to have a serial number and can be transferred without an issue in Idaho.

If it was made after 1968, it will need to be 'registered' with the ATF, including having a model number and serial number added. After that is approved, it can be transferred like any other firearm. (One note - if it fires from an open bolt, or has a fire control system easily modified to become full-auto, the ATF will NOT approve it, and will declare it a machine gun - because it's being 'manufactured' today, as far as they're concerned, and today's rules don't allow those features.)

Pezo · March 1, 2013, 10:53 PM

You went from a treasure to a forbidden machine gun! Too funny. I'd say no worry but I wouldn't parade it around much either.

FrankenMauser · March 1, 2013, 10:55 PM

Quote:

You went from a treasure to a forbidden machine gun! Too funny. I'd say no worry but I wouldn't parade it around much either.

Yep. Unfortunately, that's the ATF we have to deal with, in today's world.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 2, 2013, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

Yep. Unfortunately, that's the ATF we have to deal with, in today's world.

What law states that a firearm someone makes for him/herself must have a serial number on it before it can be transferred within the state where it was made?

Bill DeShivs · March 2, 2013, 12:53 AM

Home made guns don't require a serial number, even if it was made yesterday.

FrankenMauser · March 2, 2013, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Home made guns don't require a serial number, even if it was made yesterday.

Absolutely true ...unless you want to transfer it.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 2, 2013, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

Quote:

Home made guns don't require a serial number, even if it was made yesterday.

Absolutely true ...unless you want to transfer it.

Unless you want to transfer it through an FFL. Most states still allow unregulated transfers within the state, and within the same state Federal laws don't come into play. The only reason a serial number would be required for a transfer through an FFL is to allow the FFL a "key" to record the firearm in his bound book. No FFL ==> no bound book ==> no need for a serial number.

Alternatively, bequests do not have to go through an FFL, even for interstate. The executor can deliver a bequest firearm directly to the named heir. So the gentleman who is nearing the end could simply write into his will (or add a codicil) that his home-built ___ is to go to his son, John Doe.

Again, I don't believe any serial number would be necessary, since there would be no bound book entry involved.

Webleymkv · March 2, 2013, 04:02 PM

Quote:

The only reason a serial number would be required for a transfer through an FFL is to allow the FFL a "key" to record the firearm in his bound book. No FFL ==> no bound book ==> no need for a serial number.

So how do FFL's handle transfers of factory-produced firearms which were made before 1968 and have no serial number? For example, I have a Sears & Roebuck shotgun (manufactured by High Standard) that never had a serial number to begin with as it was made and sold before 1968. How would an FFL go about transferring such a firearm?

**Aguila Blanca** · March 2, 2013, 06:20 PM

^^^ Well, that's a good question.

Where is Tom Servo when you need him?

steveno · March 2, 2013, 06:51 PM

I have seen N/A ( not applicable) or NSN (no serial number). the atf knows this exists on old guns

Microgunner · March 2, 2013, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Webleymkv

So how do FFL's handle transfers of factory-produced firearms which were made before 1968 and have no serial number? For example, I have a Sears & Roebuck shotgun (manufactured by High Standard) that never had a serial number to begin with as it was made and sold before 1968. How would an FFL go about transferring such a firearm?

I simply enter "none pre 1968" in the serial # column in the bound book and on all other paperwork.

It's satisified the ATF for the last 25 years.

Transfer is the same as a serialized firearm.

g.willikers · March 2, 2013, 07:06 PM

If your friend is worried about it, why not just have his father in law put a number on it?

Willie Sutton · March 2, 2013, 07:27 PM

^^^

He does not need to deface it with a number. Don't complicate a simple thing.

This is a simple thing. It's legal as-is. It can be given away as a gift as-is.

Willie

.

**Tom Servo** · March 2, 2013, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Where is Tom Servo when you need him?

Sorry, I was busy fighting crime and protecting the integrity of the space-time continuum. Nice work if you can get it.

Several others have posted the correct information. Your friend doesn't need to worry about a serial number because the firearm was made prior to 1968. When licensed dealers interact with such guns, we list make, model, type, and caliber. For serial number, "none" or "NA" is acceptable.

Blanca is correct about transferring. If the gun is manufactured with the intent of resale, the person making it must be licensed. If it is for personal use, no license is required.

All that scary verbiage in 27 CFR § 478.124 applies to licensed manufacturers and importers.

Unless your friend lives in a state that requires private transfers to go through an FFL, none of that applies.

rc · March 3, 2013, 12:47 AM

Isn't it a moot issue in texas as a private transfer. Does it really matter if he made it himself if he is legal to possess and nobody can say he didn't make it himself? With printed gun technology this is going to be a growing question.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 3, 2013, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

Several others have posted the correct information. Your friend doesn't need to worry about a serial number because the firearm was made prior to 1968. When licensed dealers interact with such guns, we list make, model, type, and caliber. For serial number, "none" or "NA" is acceptable.

Tom, the law still allows us to build our own firearms. This is the basis of the (now disappearing) market for "80% receivers." My understanding from perusing the ads for these things is that no serial number is required on a home-built firearm even today.

Suppose I built an AR-15 a couple or three years ago from an "80% receiver," and then this week I decide I can't afford to shoot it so I'm going to give it to my nephew in New Hampshire. (I don't live in New Hampshire.) It would be an interstate transfer, so it would have to go through at least one FFL. Would I have to mark it with a serial number and my name and city as the maker before it can be legally transferred?

**Tom Servo** · March 3, 2013, 10:38 AM

Quote:

My understanding from perusing the ads for these things is that no serial number is required on a home-built firearm even today.

You're correct.

I'll have to do some digging for the regs on transfers. The ATF has sent out letters saying that the item must then be in acccordance with 27 CFR 478.92, but again, most of that applies to licensees, which the OP is not.

johnwilliamson062 · March 6, 2013, 12:55 AM

I have read several letters issued by ATFE on the subject and they ALWAYS include a REQUEST that the firearm be serialized if it is going to be transferred in any way. I imagine that if it turns up later at a crime scene they might look on having followed that request favorably. Unlikely as that may be.

Personally, I'd just hand it over. If going through an FFL the FFL is the one responsible for such things. If you find an FFL willing to transfer without one, and if you say it is pre-68 you probably can, then I don't think anything will come back on you as long as ATFE can't prove it is not pre-68.

Matyoka · December 16, 2020, 04:51 PM

Will bring this back to life as I am dealing with the same issue. Grandfather is transferring a pre 1968 Sear and Roebuck Co. JC Higgins 12ga to his grandson from AZ to NC. I am the transferring FFL and just got the answer from my ATF Inspector: "NSN" in the serial column.

**44 AMP** · December 16, 2020, 10:57 PM

had a Siamese Mauser in the 80s. Not one arabic number on it. "No serial Number" was what went on the paperwork, all good.

March 1, 2013, 05:29 PM	#1
WillyKern69 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 160	Transfer of a gun with no serial number on it. Dear All, a friend of mines father in law is terminal, he built a gun for himself back in the 60's. It never had a serial number. A semi auto handgun. He wants my friend to have the gun. But my friend is scared because he does not know how to handle the tranfer. So what should he do to keep things legal? I have seen post on this before, but when I did a search I did not find much. Also if the staff wants to direct this to that post that is cool. Thanks in advance, WK Last edited by WillyKern69; March 1, 2013 at 06:03 PM. Reason: add info

March 1, 2013, 10:33 PM	#6
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	If it was made before 1968, it was not required to have a serial number and can be transferred without an issue in Idaho. If it was made after 1968, it will need to be 'registered' with the ATF, including having a model number and serial number added. After that is approved, it can be transferred like any other firearm. (One note - if it fires from an open bolt, or has a fire control system easily modified to become full-auto, the ATF will NOT approve it, and will declare it a machine gun - because it's being 'manufactured' today, as far as they're concerned, and today's rules don't allow those features.) __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

March 2, 2013, 12:53 AM	#10
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	Home made guns don't require a serial number, even if it was made yesterday. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

March 2, 2013, 07:06 PM	#17
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	If your friend is worried about it, why not just have his father in law put a number on it? __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

December 16, 2020, 04:51 PM	#24
Matyoka Junior Member Join Date: April 24, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 6	Will bring this back to life as I am dealing with the same issue. Grandfather is transferring a pre 1968 Sear and Roebuck Co. JC Higgins 12ga to his grandson from AZ to NC. I am the transferring FFL and just got the answer from my ATF Inspector: "NSN" in the serial column. __________________ Noveske Light Recce/AAC M4-2000 mod 08 Silencer Walther P22/Tac Quest Silencer H&K Tactical Compact .45/AAC Evolution 45 Silencer KEL-TEC SU22 Semi Auto .22 rifle/threaded barrel

March 1, 2013, 06:08 PM	#2
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	It's legal to manufacture a firearm for ones own use. They do not need to be marked in any way. As long as there is no intent to manufacture for resale, they can be sold at a later date in order to dispose of them. In any event, serial numbers were not required even on factory produced arms until 1968, and in the case of an older self-made firearm, "good luck" to a law enforcement case trying to prove date of manufacture. From the face of it, there should be no problem in a transfer. Willie .

March 1, 2013, 06:19 PM	#3
WillyKern69 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 160	Thanks. does he have to go through a FFl or can he give it to him with a bill of sale? WK

March 1, 2013, 06:30 PM	#4
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	In Texas? It's a private transfer... If the recipient is not known to the owner as a criminal, and is a resident of Texas, he can hand it over with a handshake and a smile and a pat on the back and a "I hope you enjoy this, son".... This should be a family treasure. Willie .

March 1, 2013, 06:58 PM	#5
WillyKern69 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 160	Actually Idaho. Thank you he will be excited. WK

March 1, 2013, 10:53 PM	#7
Pezo Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2005 Location: Vernors and orange barrels. Posts: 661	You went from a treasure to a forbidden machine gun! Too funny. I'd say no worry but I wouldn't parade it around much either.

March 2, 2013, 06:20 PM	#14
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,468	^^^ Well, that's a good question. Where is Tom Servo when you need him?

March 2, 2013, 06:51 PM	#15
steveno Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Minden , Nebraska Posts: 1,407	I have seen N/A ( not applicable) or NSN (no serial number). the atf knows this exists on old guns

March 2, 2013, 07:27 PM	#18
Willie Sutton Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2012 Posts: 1,066	^^^ He does not need to deface it with a number. Don't complicate a simple thing. This is a simple thing. It's legal as-is. It can be given away as a gift as-is. Willie .

March 3, 2013, 12:47 AM	#20
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,767	Isn't it a moot issue in texas as a private transfer. Does it really matter if he made it himself if he is legal to possess and nobody can say he didn't make it himself? With printed gun technology this is going to be a growing question.

March 6, 2013, 12:55 AM	#23
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	I have read several letters issued by ATFE on the subject and they ALWAYS include a REQUEST that the firearm be serialized if it is going to be transferred in any way. I imagine that if it turns up later at a crime scene they might look on having followed that request favorably. Unlikely as that may be. Personally, I'd just hand it over. If going through an FFL the FFL is the one responsible for such things. If you find an FFL willing to transfer without one, and if you say it is pre-68 you probably can, then I don't think anything will come back on you as long as ATFE can't prove it is not pre-68.

December 16, 2020, 10:57 PM	#25
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	had a Siamese Mauser in the 80s. Not one arabic number on it. "No serial Number" was what went on the paperwork, all good. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.