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August 21, 2009, 04:08 PM | #351 | ||
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As far as the black man toting the AR...I think its hard for us to assume one way or another. People have been arguing "Well, look at the people around him, they are not scared" etc. etc. and to that I would say, duh, he is protesting the healthcare bill, chances are there are a lot of supporters of the 2A there that also object to the healthcare bill and the sight of the gun is either common to them or not that big of a deal. Now if this man happened to be pro-choice and protested a pro-life rally, chances are the results would be different. Again, crowd with which he would be part of would sort of predict the results. Of course before I get slammed for this thought, this is assuming "all else being equal" meaning I know there are contradictions to both of those thoughts, but IMHO, the general idea still holds. Quote:
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August 21, 2009, 06:15 PM | #352 | |
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They'll still be just as hostile (or at best apathetic) to the whole issue. They're not going to go home and tell their friends, "I saw a guy openly carrying a rifle, and I've realized that I should support the 2nd Amendment!" No, they're going to say, "you wouldn't believe this scary man who had the audacity to carry a gun there!"
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August 21, 2009, 06:26 PM | #353 | |
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August 21, 2009, 06:42 PM | #354 | ||||
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That "lawful AR" says such only to you azredhawk44 and other gun absolutists, but to John Q it says: "I will take up arms and kill my fellow citizens and overturn laws passed by a democratically elected leadership supported by law and the courts if I don't like what the result is. If I can't win at the ballot box I will win with a gun." That is the message they hear whenever we talk this insurrection/militia stuff and to believe otherwise is not looking at reality.
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August 21, 2009, 08:04 PM | #355 | |||||
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I have also said that the general public sees them as extremists. Quote:
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Yes, there are a few examples where the media has been useful in spite of itself, but those examples are rare and happened mostly by chance. It's very difficult to engineer something like the Selleck interview because the media will do its best to resist being useful to our cause. They don't like being made to sound dumb, they don't like having to refute strong logical arguments in front of "their" audience.
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August 21, 2009, 08:22 PM | #356 | ||
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If you live in constant fear that any action you may take "may disquiet the flock" and somehow prove to bring down the wrath of the gun control legislation crowd, then you are already defeated. You might just as well turn in your guns now, you have already taken a stance that anything you might do to change the status-quo might bring further restrictions on those rights. Have you considered what you will do if, in fact, your rights (not just 2A) are restricted further? Will you just accept this as a natural progression of the "law of the land"? Or do you have the courage to defend the "actual" law of the land, the Constitution ? What will you do when later down the road, legislation from .gov ( who continues to thumb it's nose at "We the People) decide you can no longer enjoy your 1A, 2A, or any other rights? Will you simply accept this as a part of the process? If I am to be labeled an "extremist" then so be it, I will wear the moniker proudly, and if it upsets what passes for gun rights now, then you may either blame the fallout on me, and those of like mind, or join the fray. Either way, I have made my position clear for any to see. Quote:
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August 21, 2009, 08:34 PM | #357 | |||
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Your entire post is a false dichotomy. You're trying desperately to make it appear that one has only two choices: To (1) do nothing or (2) join/support this one particular movement. Nothing could be farther from the truth. There are very constructive and productive things that everyone on this board could do (some even starting tonight) that would help change people's minds and that don't require them to OC at high-profile events. Writing to congressmen and politicians, contributing to gun advocacy groups (there are several choices), volunteering time and effort to support gun advocacy group activities and events, holding events to safely introduce people to firearms, etc.
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August 21, 2009, 08:42 PM | #358 | ||||
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August 21, 2009, 08:44 PM | #359 | ||
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I have a friend who has scars on her face, inflicted when she was pushed into broken glass on the street by an officer during the civil rights movement. She doesn't see the equivalence. The right to keep and bear arms IS a civil right, and it IS being unacceptably infringed. However, it's not the same as attempted genocide or the infringement of ALL the civil rights of a certain race. It rankles me to hear these comparisons from 22-year-old white suburban kids who've never even seen the circumstances they imagine they understand (I am not calling anyone on this forum out; I raised the point in the first place because I've heard these arguments plenty of times before). This isn't Warsaw or Selma. We can win, but we have to choose our rhetoric and our methods with care.
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August 21, 2009, 08:48 PM | #360 | ||
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While the majority of Americans oppose the intrusion of .gov into a whole litany of issues, they continue to carry on as if we do not exist. I, and I am sure countless others have written to our "representatives" until we have had to replace our keyboards due to wear and tear, the result? they do not appear to be listening. joining encounter groups is a lovely idea, but, I think time is beginning to run out for "passive activism", the time for an "intervention" seems on the (somewhat distant) horizon.
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August 21, 2009, 08:49 PM | #361 | |
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As the media realized this, they changed tunes, and supported the gay movement. The same is going to happen with the Second Amendment. Violence is already a big seller for the media. Firearms in particular. Some day, someone is going to wake up and realize the media has made billions of dollars off violence, and the use of firearms in movies. Now, think what might happen if we got together, identified the money guys who finance movies, and the media, that attacks gun rights, publish their record, and boycott their productions? There are companies that put up 100's of millions of dollars for movie production. Just for example, let's say that we find out Brocoli whatever, the company that produces James Bond movies, backs MSNBC, and a bunch of other liberal anti-gun papers, and networks. What if they open, and, they are picketed, and, the movie looses 100 million dollars? Daniel Craig comes out, and says the reason he said he was anti-gun was, and is, that if he comes out pro gun, he'll loose his job as James Bond. Mel Gibson has already paved the way for this, since it happened to him. The media doesn't know it, but, they WILL become our friends... Also, keep in mind that I suspect the average gun owner to be on the well to do side as well, and, quite capable of affecting the media, and hitting them in the pocket book. |
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August 21, 2009, 09:03 PM | #362 | |
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What I am saying is that CURRENTLY the media is violently opposed to our cause and that is not going to change anytime in our lifetimes. The move of the media to support the gay rights movement is far more complicated than you make it appear. It was NOT simply about money, there was a predisposition in the media to support the movement due to their societal and political views just as there is a predisposition in the media to oppose our movement due to their societal and political views. It would be more accurate to say that initially the media appeared anti-gay because they were afraid of the opinions of the general public but later realized that they had tremendous power to manipulate the public and took advantage of that power. We can argue about the details but the bottom line is that the gay rights movement effectively made zero progress until the media openly got on their side. I agree that if we could get the media to openly take our side we could change our tactics considerably, but that's not the way things are and your examples of how to get them to take our side are wildly optimistic.
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August 21, 2009, 09:07 PM | #363 | |
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August 21, 2009, 09:13 PM | #364 |
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The statement you quoted does NOT say anything like your characterization of it in your rant.
You'd better read what you quoted a lot more carefully if you're going to respond that emphatically. The quote does NOT say that our freedoms weren't won by firearms in the hands of patriots. It does not speak against the value of the 2A in securing our freedoms. It merely states, very clearly, I might add, that our current freedom (note the present tense in the quote) is not due solely to ("just because") the fact that some citizens own (again note the present tense) guns. It is a true statement. While firearms helped to win our freedom, the private ownership of firearms today is not the only reason we still have freedom.
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August 21, 2009, 09:33 PM | #365 | |
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ETA: I will withdraw from this discussion as I can see the scythe descending, but I leave with my position clearly stated, and live (hopefully) to fight another time.
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August 21, 2009, 09:42 PM | #366 |
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Considering the number of Presidents that have been killed, or assassination attempts on Presidents (Reagan, Ford), I do not consider it appropriate to openly carry firearms around them.
It may be your right, but that does not mean it is smart. |
August 21, 2009, 10:47 PM | #367 | |
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Slamfire1: How dare you bring the elephant out of the closet???
Perhaps instead of that belief, perhaps you should look at the concept that an armed populace would likely stop that attempt? Quote:
Yes, Hollyweird money has long been controlled by a communist/socialist/gay element. Remember, they were accused of being communist in the 50's, and I know some of them to be exactly that. Despite that prejudice, the media threw the gay cause under the bus at the start of the movement, to make as much money as possible. That is their God, and, we can both affect, and control them through that God, once we wake up and realize we are both wealthy and strong. That said, we do have the power to dilute, and destroy their control over the media. We just need to target them, protest, and address their agenda. The irony is they don't really have any agenda that is more important then keeping control, power, and making money. Threaten that, and they cave in, or have to go find new financing. Believe me: Sony is now a major player, and, the Japanese are not inclined to support anything that costs them money. It may take them a bit, but, all the liberal-gay-political agendas mean nothing to them. The Japanese are one thing: long term, well thought out CAPITALISTS. |
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August 21, 2009, 11:39 PM | #368 |
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Packin' near a town hall meeting
There could be some positives out of exercising your rights. More people are becoming aware. Here in PA we have been pushing open carry for some time now. We have forced the police to get trained better on the law. One thing I have not seen come out of this open carry at hese events, which is primarily a political thing, All these people packing heat and OH MY, but nothing bad happened. Strange, isn't it. The pro gun talking heads need to push that side of the story. The law abiding people carry all the time, and you just now notice? Where is the "blood in the streets"? Why isn't it "Dodge City"? People carry and it's not a bad thing.
Sorry if this ground has been covered before I must have missed it.
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August 22, 2009, 12:46 AM | #369 | ||||
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I'm not at all interested in getting into how and why the media (and the country) changed dramatically between the fifties and the seventies but it is a topic of some interest to many and as such it has been written about extensively. Assuming that you're willing to approach it with an open mind I believe that a little research will provide you with some valuable insights. Quote:
It's really all moot anyway. Before we can use the media as a tool its agenda must be redefined. We differ on how that would be effected but agree that it must be done. We can theorize about what could happen if we could change the media's collective mind but until it happens it's all just pie-in-the-sky. They're against us now and since 'now' is where we are that's what we have to deal with. Which gets us back to the topic. Openly carrying at high-profile events will be spun against us by the current mainstream media. Quote:
I'm all for people exercising their rights prudently such that it results in a positive outcome for the cause of gun rights.
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August 22, 2009, 01:03 AM | #370 | |
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey |
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August 22, 2009, 01:10 AM | #371 |
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That's an interesting bit of trivia. What's the relevance?
Specifically, unless you can defend the assertion that openly carried guns could not be used in an assassination or that anyone who carries a gun openly would never assassinate someone I don't understand the point of your objection. A semi-auto pistol has never been used to assassinate a president, but that wouldn't make it any more appropriate to try to smuggle a semi-auto pistol past the Secret Service than say a .22LR revolver or a Carcano rifle.
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August 22, 2009, 01:40 AM | #372 |
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The relevance: The contention of open carry around a president was specious.
An assassin would not telegraph his intentions by exposing his weapon prior to his intended use. I never stated that a firearm, regardless of the method carried, could not be used to assassinate someone; nor did I assert that the method of carry precludes the intention of the perpetrator. McKinley was shot by a man who wrapped up the firearm in his hand with a bandage to mimic an injury. Click HERE to view image.
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Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey Last edited by jimpeel; August 22, 2009 at 01:46 AM. |
August 22, 2009, 03:55 AM | #373 | ||
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August 22, 2009, 06:46 AM | #374 |
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Some of the people rsponding to this post remind me of the ones who start the "Zombie" threads. You know: What would you carry if the zombies came? They go on and on about the choice of weapon "I need two AR's, a shotgun for close-up work and a Glock 9mm with a 30 round magazine, and about 5000 rounds of ammo. Oh, and some food and water". Something tells me these two guys have imagined themselves in that scenario, especially Mr. Blinkey.
Some people go WAY overboard. I have AR's, semi auto shotguns, you name it. NEVER would I think to strap one on and go to a town hall meeting. |
August 22, 2009, 07:04 AM | #375 | |
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Simple questions: Does anyone really believe that the 2nd Amendment currently protects us from an overbearing government? The government does what it wants right now. How far do you let them go? Even if the government banned guns tomorrow, does anyone really plan on walking away from everything they own and their family to take up arms to defend themselves against the government? If the answer is yes, do you have the skills required to survive in such an environment? Who do you attack? Go you think the average US citizens would support you in such actions?
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