Will keeping a fully loaded mag REALLY wear out the spring?

[TunnelRat]

Because too many people assume that if something doesn't happen often and/or hasn't happened to them that is proof that it can't happen at all. And that belief is reinforced by people who understand the theory behind springs but who haven't fully thought through the implications of all the practicalities involved with spring design and manufacture.

Who cares? The majority of people out there won't experience mag spring failures. And if they do it's one of the cheapest parts related to firearms to replace.

[JohnKSa]

Who cares?

Anyone who needs their semi-automatic self-defense handgun to work 100% of the time should care.

The majority of people out there won't experience mag spring failures.

It's not a common issue--nobody is claiming otherwise. However, it's important to understand that the fact that it's an uncommon problem is not evidence that it's a trivial problem.

Anyone who has a gun for self-defense is preparing for a relatively low-probability event. We don't prepare because we think it's highly likely that we'll need a gun for protection but because we aren't willing to accept the potentially negative outcome of being attacked and not being prepared. In the same way, mag spring failure is important not because it's common but because the potential repercussions of having a mag spring fail at an "inopportune" time could be severe.

And if they do it's one of the cheapest parts related to firearms to replace.

The fact that springs are cheap and easy to replace would make it all the more tragic if someone were to have their gun fail in a self-defense encounter because they had been convinced it's impossible for mag springs to weaken if left loaded when they could have, had they been properly informed, detected the problem early and then repaired it cheaply and easily.

I liken this general issue to the topic of "spring kits" that are sold as DIY trigger jobs. For the majority of people, they work just fine and provide an improvement in the trigger pull. But in some cases, they can result in an unreliable firearm. To my knowledge, a spring kit problem has reared its ugly head only once in a self-defense encounter, so it's obviously pretty rare for it to be a factor in a deadly force situation. But that doesn't mean that it wasn't a pretty serious problem for the defender who found that his self-defense gun wouldn't fire every time he pulled the trigger.

So should we ignore the issue because it's not common? I don't see it that way. When I see someone talking about a spring kit, I always chime in and let the person know that they need to thoroughly test their modified gun in both SA and DA fire using their chosen self-defense ammunition before they rely on it for self-defense. Not because I think it's common for spring kits to render guns unreliable but because I know it CAN be an issue and therefore it's worth spreading the word.

[Dragline45]

How about this. Keeping a mag fully loaded for an extended period of time will usually not weaken the spring to failure, but it certainly does weaken the spring to some extent, and there is no disputing this. In certain circumstances, but not usually the case, keeping a mag fully loaded can sometimes cause failures in a gun, usually failure for the slide to lock back when empty, or failure to feed.

Now the solution to everyone's problems, drumroll please...... BUY EXTRA MAG SPRINGS. They cost next to nothing, and if you are really worried about your mag springs wearing out from being kept loaded switch them out once a year and you are good to go. I sometimes switch mine out pre-maturely, usually every 2 years and sometimes 3, but I also keep the old mag springs as spares as there is nothing wrong with them.

[JohnKSa]

Keeping a mag fully loaded for an extended period of time will usually not weaken the spring to failure, but it certainly does weaken the spring to some extent, and there is no disputing this.

I know it's going to look like I'm arguing both sides of the aisle on this, but I think your summation overstates the issue.

It's certainly true, as Kevin_d77 points out, that it's possible to design a magazine/magazine spring combination that won't weaken from being left compressed. So we can't go so far as to say that "it certainly does weaken the spring to some extent". Depending on the magazine design it may or it may not.

What we can say is that magazine springs may weaken from being left loaded for long periods. Basically that it's an issue we should be aware of even though it's not extremely likely we'll have to deal with it.

Given the low cost of mag springs and the ease of replacement, a preventive replacement program like yours is reasonable, however, I'm a little cheaper than you are, I guess. I check mine regularly and replace them when/if I note a problem. If I were to find that I'm having regular failures of a particular type of magazine then I would either adopt a regular preventive replacement plan for those particular mags or start underloading those mags by a round or two.

It turns out that it's the last little bit of compression that's hardest on the springs and you can often "fix" a design issue by insuring that the mag spring doesn't get compressed all the way to the maximum that the magazine design allows. Beretta even alludes to this in a roundabout fashion in their 92/96 series pistol owners manual.

"LOADING TO MAXIMUM PISTOL CAPACITY: During normal chamber loading, as described above, the pistol contains one round in the chamber plus 14 rounds in the magazine. This is an advantage because the magazine spring is not fully compressed but under about the same tension as a 15-round loaded spare magazine."

In other words, they're letting the owner know that the extra compression created by inserting a fully loaded mag with the slide forward isn't really all that great for the spring.

[Dragline45]

It's certainly true, as Kevin_d77 points out, that it's possible to design a magazine/magazine spring combination that won't weaken from being left compressed. So we can't go so far as to say that "it certainly does weaken the spring to some extent".

I am just going by whenever I switch out a mag spring and compare it to a new one it is noticeably shorter. Also I noticed it is easier to load a magazine with well used springs than one with brand new ones. Kind of like how the recoil spring on a brand new pistol can be very stiff until the gun gets shot a bit. Now keep in mind I have designated range mags and mags that just sit loaded at the house, even the ones that don't get shot much are still shorter than a brand new mag spring. Now do I believe they get weakened enough to cause a problem, no, I just think of it as breaking them in.

Now I am not against keeping mags fully loaded at all times. I personally have never experienced a failure from doing so. I will be the first one to admit that switching out the mag springs as frequently as I do is a little unnecessary, about every 2-3 years, but it's a small price to pay for peace of mind. By the way I function test all the mags that get new springs before anyone says it.

It turns out that it's the last little bit of compression that's hardest on the springs and you can often "fix" a design issue by insuring that the mag spring doesn't get compressed all the way to the maximum that the magazine design allows. Beretta even alludes to this in a roundabout fashion in their 92/96 series pistol owners manual.

While I completely agree with you, certain mags I would not be worried about loading to the max. Those being single stack mags, and magazines for guns like the Beretta M9/92 or Hi-power. Although they are hi-capacity mags, those magazines could certainly fit a few more rounds and are not loaded to max capacity. I was told the the 18rd Beretta mecgar mags use the same spring as the 15rd mags, with that being said I am not really worried about keeping it topped off at 15.

[6.8]

I had it happen. But it took 4 years

[Bill DeShivs]

What if your replacement springs are bad?
ALL springs shorten initially with use. This does not mean they are bad.

[Walt Sherrill]

As Bill notes above, all coil springs will take a "set" soon after they are first installed and put to work. Put a brand new recoil spring in a gun, and a week later, with any use, you'll find it somewhat shorter. The spring's ability to function properly will not have changed much at all, however. The folks who design springs understand this behavior, and take it into consideration when designing a coil spring for a given application.

The problem arises -- it's not a COMMON problem, but it does happen -- when a spring no longer has the ability to do the work required of it. In mag springs this is often seen when a round nose-dives as the slide starts to push it up the feed ramp. In recoil springs, this may lead to the spring not having enough stored force to close the slide and chamber the next round. A weakened recoil spring, while still functioning properly in other respects, could also allow the spent cartridge to be sent flying a much-greater distance than was once the case -- a real irritation for those who reload.

[Dragline45]

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

What if your replacement springs are bad?

Notice what I said in my previous post

Originally Posted by Dragline45

By the way I function test all the mags that get new springs before anyone says it.

------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Bill DeShivs

ALL springs shorten initially with use. This does not mean they are bad.

Originally Posted by Walt Sherrill

Put a brand new recoil spring in a gun, and a week later, with any use, you'll find it somewhat shorter. The spring's ability to function properly will not have changed much at all

Once again, notice what I said in my previous post

Originally Posted by Dragline45

even the ones that don't get shot much are still shorter than a brand new mag spring. Now do I believe they get weakened enough to cause a problem, no, I just think of it as breaking them in.

I never once said that those shorter springs mean that they are no good or enough to cause a problem, I even went as far to say that I save the springs because there is nothing wrong with them and I switch them out prematurely. What I said is the spring gets weakened to some extent, however small of a change it is. There is absolutely no denying that a brand new spring has a bit more strength to it than a spring that has been used if even for a few weeks, however miniscule of a change it may be. Once again, I do not believe that compromises the function of the spring at all. If I am wrong, then I must be imagining that it is harder to load a mag with brand spanking new mag springs than ones that have set. Or it is harder to rack the slide on a gun with a brand new recoil spring than one that has set.

[PawPaw]

One anecdote isn't data, but I'll share a story. In June 1991 I was tasked with bringing automatic weapons from our demob site to our local armory, so I armed my detail with M16s. 30-round GI magazines from the period.

Once we got the guns home and they were properly secured in the armory, I dropped that magazine in my duffel and headed home. I unloaded the duffel, and threw it in the back of the closet.

Fast forward to 2011. I was digging around and found that loaded magazine in the bottom of that duffel bag. So, the next time I went to the range, I loaded that magazine. It fired just fine. That spring had no problems at all. I'm still using that magazine and I can tell you from my personal experience that loading a GI magazine and leaving it loaded for 20 years didn't hurt it a bit.

Like many of you, I change springs regularly. I keep a couple of Wilson spring kits on hand for the 1911 magazines. It's a good idea, but keeping one magazine loaded for 20 years didn't hurt it one bit.

[ClydeFrog]

On a lark, I checked the Wolff Gunsprings website to see if they stock extra M&P .45acp 8rd pistol mag springs. They do not.
I cleaned & inspected my new S&W Military and Police .45acp Compact a few weeks ago & wasn't real impressed with the QC of the metal magazine springs.
I might replace them later just to be safe.
The 9x19mm M&P full size pistol I bought in 2011 did not have the same issues with the 17rd mag springs.

Clyde

[Bill DeShivs]

How, exactly does one visually gauge the quality control of springs?

[ClydeFrog]

The one M&P magazine spring, which was NIB, looked slightly rusted & had a red-brown color on it.
The mags need broken in but I'd rather replace the minor part then have it fail in a gunfight.

The only type I've seen on the web fit full size .45acp M&P magazines too.
The main S&W website was out for most of today.

[zx9rt1]

Negative.

[CDW4ME]

I always left one round out of a 19/23 magazine to preserve spring tension; magazine article long ago about how the last round really increased the force on the spring.

Due to the comments I had seen on other threads like this, I went ahead and put that last round in the magazine. One month later, the spring was noticeably weaker when compared to a new magazine spring.

I'm going back to leaving one out on 19/23 magazines, as the spring seems to retain its force better that way.
On 26/27 magazines they are getting fully loaded.
The fully loaded magazine springs removed from Glock 19/23 magazines and 26/27 mags had both compressed or "taken a set" and were the same length, which was considerably shorter than a new spring, but the shorter magazine of the 26/27 allowed the spring to have more force than the taller 19/23 magazines.

I replace magazine springs that feel weak, have low tolerance for weak mag springs.

[Ibmikey]

I have lanyard loop magazines for my 1911, all were made during WW I, all still fire as if new. I do not keep m16 mags fully loaded, leaving a couple of rounds out-- not to preserve springs but because they lock into the weapon just a bit easier.

[rickyrick]

Nope

[skizzums]

my pistol mags are mostly 15-16 round, i load them to 14 usually, no reason except weight. my sccy stays full, my cheapo tapco 20's have been fully loaded for years and barely used. i haven't yet had a prroblem with any mags in my lifetime, even the hipoints. but i understand loading -1 if there is no room at the bottom of the mag, the metal will weaken if pushed past a certain point, but then, i don't know if the designers compensate for this and leave room for the spring not to be over-exerted by it's point. my opinion is -1 seems like a fair rule, even if it's not confirmed.

[rickyrick]

Most followers have a physical stop.

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by rickyrick

Most followers have a physical stop

Some certainly do. But a number of the high-cap mags have modified (or redesigned) followers that allow additional spring compression, offering additional space for additional rounds. That's certainly true of some of the Mec-Gar after-market mags that offer one or two more rounds than the factory mags they supplement. I know, from personal experience, it's true with some of their CZ and SIG mags. In many cases, the differences between a 15 or 16 round mag and some that hold additional rounds is ONLY the follower -- as the springs are the same.

.

[Mike_Fontenot]

I think there is one question that hasn't been asked (let alone answered) on this thread: it HAS been mentioned (and most of us have experienced it) that a recoil spring (and presumably also a mag spring) will be shorter than when it was brand new, even after the single initial trip to the range. But AFTER THAT, do they CONTINUE to get shorter, say, over the next couple of years? Seems to me that if the answer to that is NO, then they're probably never going to need replacing. But if they CONTINUE to get shorter with time, then I suspect eventually they WILL get too weak to do their job properly.

Anyone know if mag springs (that are kept full) DO continue to get shorter over time spans of several years?

[Walt Sherrill]

You want a simple answer. There is no simple answer.

In a way it's like asking what sort of gas mileage will you get from car x: part of the answer is based on the car's design (and it's ability to drive efficiently or carry big loads efficiently) but part of the answer depends on how the car is used/driven.

The research and scientific data posted here in prior responses, along with a lot of personal experience cited by a lot of different shooters says, in effect, it all depends on a given gun's specific mag and recoil spring design.

Some springs will never have to be replaced, whether they're mag springs or recoil springs. Others will have a relatively short service life. 1911 Mag springs are renowned for their ability to be stored loaded and work fifty years later. But even when fully loaded, those 1911 mag springs aren't really being compressed that much. Browning built in a lot reserve power into his mag's design, and the springs weren't being worked that hard. But the reliability and service life of the later 8- , 9- and 10- round 1911 mag springs seems somewhat poorer.

With sub-compact guns, the expected life of a recoil spring is typically much shorter than the life of related full-size guns. Most single-stack mag springs in full-size guns may outlast the owner, but some hi-cap mags and some compacts and sub-compacts, will have shorter service lives, depending on the specific design and how those springs are used.

Example: The makers of the Rorhbaugh's new R9 9mm sub-compact recently reduced the number of rounds suggested for their recoil springs before replacement to around 200; originally the number had been higher. That's a very compact gun and the smaller recoil spring has to do the same work as a much longer spring in a full-size gun.

And it's not that springs are getting shorter that causes the problem -- although these springs do take an initial set and shorten when first put to work. That shortening may not get dramatically (or obviously) worse, but the ability of the spring to work properly (i.e., to lift as many rounds or close a slide completely) may, in some cases, decline over time and with use. It all depends on the specific gun's design and how that design uses the springs to get the job done. How the owner uses the gun can affect spring life as well.

[Laz]

It would seem that some clarity is being brought to the issue. However, I would venture that the most commonly carried pistols are not 1911s, or full-size double stack 9s and 40s. I suspect the most commonly carried pistols are single stack compact and sub-compact pistols chambered in .380 acp and 9mm Luger. Will the single stack magazines for such pistols as the LCP, P3AT, Bersa, PPK, Shield, LC9, Rohrbaugh and the like suffer from being kept loaded to full capacity? The answer to this question could have very real and dramatic effect in a carrier's life and well being.

Obviously, the situation with 1911s and double stack high capacity magazines is extremely pertinent to home defense issues.

I think it might be worth mentioning that my understanding of the most likely type of failure of a weakened mag spring would likely be failure to load the last round or two, or failure to lock back the slide. Not catastrophic failure to feed rounds at all. Is this not correct?

[JohnKSa]

Single stack magazines seem to be much less likely to have magazine spring issues than double-column mags, but it wouldn't be wise to assume that they are totally immune.

The best approach is to check your magazines periodically to see if the springs are weakening or if the magazines no longer work reliably. Everybody should be checking their self-defense equipment regularly anyway. If one of the checks indicates that there is a problem, replace the springs with high quality replacements. If the problem repeats, replace the springs again but either underload your mags by a round or two or leave them fully loaded and determine a reasonable cycle for periodically replacing the springs.

[LarryFlew]

I'm with that no simple answer. I have shot M1 carbine mags that where loaded in the 50s and M16 mags from the 60s with zero failures. On the other hand I have had a mag spring fail after less than 10 uses. Murphy's law does apply.