Question About Action Length and Cartridge Clearance

[cooltouch]

I have a couple of 1909 Argentine actions that were built by DWM Berlin, based on the large-ring 98 design. I'm planning to build a pair of custom rifles on these actions and I've been debating what cartridge I should chamber each in. I'm close to finalizing my plans, which actually won't impact action length, but I've become curious about this subject, knowing what I do about the 1909's action length and at least one popular cartridge selection -- 30-06.

The 1909 action's length, as well as the length of the magazine, is almost exactly 3 inches. The 1909 was originally chambered in 7.65mm x 53 Argentine, which is almost exactly 3 inches in length (76mm, or 2.99 inches). And the reason why I'm posting this note is because the 30-06 is about 3.34 inches in length. So what I'm wondering is, how does a 30-06 cartridge fit in a 3 inch long magazine well? Did the gunsmith somehow lengthen the action, magazine, and bolt to accept the longer cartridge length? Neglecting tempering issues, it seems extremely doubtful to me.

Me, I'd say it can't be done, but in my recent browsings I've come across several custom rifles based on 1909 action that were chambered in 30-06.

Oh, and in case you're curious, I've just about made my mind up on the classic 7mm Mauser and the 6.5mm Creedmoor, both of which will fit the 1909 action. So, why build two rifles only 0.5mm apart? Good question. The 7mm Mauser because of its important place in the history of modern smokeless cartridge design and, well, just because I've always liked it, and the 6.5 Creedmoor because that one's gonna be a long-distance tack driver -- of course.

[45flaco]

Lots of old bolt rifles had the actions lengthened. Specifically, P14s and mosins.
0.34" isn't much to lengthen.
For example, I have a single shot mosin in 375 H&H, that I am in the process of making into a repeater. The mosin action length is 3.07" from the factory, but 375 H&H with 264 grain bullets has an overall length of 3.45"
To do this, I cut the front and back from the bottom metal, milled out the receiver lengthwise and side to side, moved ejector back and lengthened, and am about to weld front and back onto the bottom metal in their new locations.

If the desired OAL is close to or more than the bolt's travel, you'll want to actually cut and weld spacers into the receiver itself, and use a lengthened bolt and bottom metal. This is a much more involved process, but is done to make magnum length actions from turkish mausers, P14s, etc.

I would recommend against the second option unless you are a gunsmith, as the welding involved must be perfect, and it might need to be heat treated, depending on where you made the splice.

edited for clarity

[45flaco]

Also, the 7x57 is not only a cool cartridge historically, but an excellent long range hunting cartridge.
If you run it at the same pressures as the 6.5 CM, and use the 195 grain EOL or similar, it will outshine 6.5 at 1000 yards, and it's a much better hunting round at any range.

[cooltouch]

Thanks for the info, flaco. I had no idea that gunsmiths would be willing to do that amount of work on an action. And it sure seems to me that the result would need to be re-heat treated. But anyway, I'm glad you satisfied my curiosity.

I wasn't aware of the 7x57s capabilities that you mention. I know it's a fine cartridge, but I had no idea it was capable of such extremes. One thing I've been kicking around about the 7x57 is chambering it in Ackley Improved. Seems to me this might even improve long range performance because longer bullets might could be seated if the same amount of powder was used.

[Jim Watson]

A guy here has an FN Mauser sporter .30-06 which works because a lot of .30 soft points are shorter than 3.34" but it won't handle long FMJ spitzers.

[45flaco]

@jim watson,
That's how my 375 is likely going to be. I shoot 99% cast 264 grain bullets, which are a bit shorter than the 300 and 350 grain solids.
Without cutting and welding the receiver and bolt, 3.5" OAL is the longest I'll get, so no 350s and probably limited on 300s.

@cooltouvh, the 7x57 Ackley Improved will make the 7x57 even better, and will give you more freedom with the heavier bullets and slow powder. I'd personally recommend a fairly long barrel, 24"+.
7x57 AI with the 195 EOLs and a slow powder could probably stay supersonic and stable out to 1500 yards, maybe more.
You will want a fast twist though, something like the spanish mausers had. A 1:8.5 or 1:9 will be best for High BC bullets.

[cooltouch]

Huh, I wonder if that guy's FN Mauser has the same action length as mine. I have an FN Mauser chambered in .308. It's action length is 3.1". Oh, and by "action length," I'm measuring the size of the opening. I suppose that's an acceptable way of doing it.

Yeah, I was wondering if some 1909's chambered in 30-06 may have required either shorter bullets or that they be set back some. Doesn't seem like the right way to do things, though.

Flaco, I read you on the faster twists. 1:8 seems about right for a long bullet with the 6.5 Creedmoor. Maybe not so tight for the 7mm?

[Don Fischer]

What I did when I had my 6.5x06 built was to give the gunsmith a dummy round that would fit in the magazine with the bullet loaded to where I wanted it. if your action is to short, make a dummy round with the bullet seated to where you want it and have the rifle chambered for that load. First time I did it, many years ago, was with a 7mm Rem mag. Sako L61 action and plenty of room to the move the bullet out. Seated a 160gr Speer hot core with the base of the bullet at the base of the neck where it meet's the shoulder. Worked out great! As long as it's gonna be custom, go custom!

[45flaco]

@cooltouch,
The 1:9 twist will stabilize a 195 EOL at any reasonable velocity.
I like the 1:8.66 (original military twist) for my own purposes, because I have a 240 grain cast bullet that I shoot at about 2100 FPS. It's an absolute hog hammer, but keyholed with a 1:9.5 twist barrel.
For any factory ammo, or handloads using factory bullets, the now-standard 1:9 is more than enough.

[armednfree]

I remember reading a book by A smith named Roy Dunlap. He would take two Mauser actions to make one rifle. He would cut one in half then cut out pieces of another to lengthen the action.

Lots of labor there, I can't imagine what that would cost today. And he did it all with a gas torch. TIGs were not available back then.

[45flaco]

Yep. The way I've seen is taking two actions, and cutting in different places. Then taking the long front end and the long back end, and putting them together. A ton of work.

[Scorch]

Lots of old bolt rifles had the actions lengthened. Specifically, P14s and mosins.

No, they didn't. There's no need to lengthen an Enfield P14 or M1917, they are already long enough for 460 Weatherby, I have built 378 Weatherbys and 30-378 Weatherbys on M1917s. In 35 years of gunsmithing I have shortened several M98 actions to accomodate shorter cartridges, but never lengthened them. I have only seen one M98 lengthened to accomodate 375 H&H. The smith who did it said he would never do another.

You can lengthen the magazine box to accomodate a longer cartridge fairly easily, but lengthening an action is simply not something you want to take on.
For your 1909 action, you can either find a commercial 98 magazine box or a later 1909 magazine box that was long enough for the 30-06

[44 AMP]

I have a 1909 action rifle that some one built into a .458 Win Mag. Book lists 3.34" as max loaded length. Gun works fine.