Redfield Revenge = Big Problem

UncleGrumpy · October 6, 2012, 02:54 AM

Hi,

I tried my new Redfield Revenge 6-18x44 on my .243 today. I have had a big problem getting the vertical adjustment any where near the target. I use a homemade target printed on a letter sized card.

At the end of trying, I had the scope adjustment wound all the way up, aiming the fat part of the lower post level with the top of the card and the bullet was striking 1" up from the bottom of the target.

It's almost like having ultrahigh rings on the rear and std height on the front. Is there a major adjustment to compensate for this error or have I got a piece of junk?

HiBC · October 6, 2012, 05:14 AM

I'd start by verifying you have the correct bases for your rifle.

Next question,what kind of rifle is it?Specifically,is it a sporterized milsurp or any other vintage rifle that may show tolerance variation at the rear bridge in particular.?(like stripper clip boss grinding).

Did you buy quality rings/mounts?Do they seem to sit down and fit line to line?

Really,putting on a scope seems so simple,and sometimes it is,but there are a lot of ways to get it wrong.

Bases tight on the rifleset the lower half of the rings on.No burrs,good clean fitup.Snug them up .Then set the scope tube in.Anything but a perfect drop in means lapping the rings.When you put the caps on ,use something,a dime,a credit card,etc as a gage to get the same gap between the upper and lower all around,then go around and tighten all the screws about 1/8 turn at a time till you just get some friction.Square up the reticle and set eye relief.Tighten like you were torquing a cylinder head.Not to crazy on the torque,its a thin aluminum tube.

Now,pull the bolt out.Sandbag the rifle.A buddy can help here.Look through the bore at an aiming point about 40 yds out.Have your buddy hold the bore on target while you twist knobs to get the crosshairs on target..

Use a bigger target,and shoot zero right on at 40 yds or so.You should be able to see your bullet holes in the scope.When you have that,back the target to 100 yds.

If you still have the problem,talk to your gunsmith.It may be you need your bases machined,or shimmed,etc.Likely you will need your rings lapped.Height problems translate to ring misalignment.Bending your scope tightening the rings is bad.

I don't use them,but some solve this problem with Burris Posi-line rings.They have eccentric sleeves that will solve your problem,likely.

You might check to see you do not have a sling swivel screw bearing on the barrel.

Remington74 · October 6, 2012, 06:57 AM

At one time I had a rifle, can't recall the brand or model now, that had different height bases for the front and rear. Not a problem except the mounting holes location allowed them to fit in either position. Of course on the first try I had them reversed from what they should have been and I don't remember if I was shooting the ground or hitting the sky with it, but it was one or the other. Reversed the mounts and all was fixed, gun shot and the bullet hit where the crosshairs were!!!

Mayby check to see if that may be part of your problem?

UncleGrumpy · October 6, 2012, 08:14 PM

hi,

I have had this M17 setup for some time now. I had a 7x Kahles on it for 20+ years but decided to go to a higher magnification. As nothing changed i think it must be a scope error.

To check the rings I measured from the bottom of the scope tube to top of base and got .250" at either ends.

HiBC · October 6, 2012, 09:26 PM

Pardon me for not being familiar with an M-17.

Are we talking about a 1917 Enfield?

If so,part of the project was removing the sight ears and reshaping the rear bridge.

All this is subject to whatever variables the gunsmith who did the work created.

I will assume you do not have access to a nice granit surface plate ,a height gage,etc,thats ok.

Lets call the bottom of the receiver,the flat part that the mag box engages,the best datum plane we have.Maybe with calipers or a mic,you can get between the feed rails and get a measurement from the flat bottom of the receiver over the top of the scope base.You may need to use a pin or a little flat piece of steel for a bridge over the feed rails.What the number is does not matter,just compare the front and rear.They should be the same,or very close.

A quick,head math estimate,if you have 4 in ring spacing,that is 3 a foot,times 300 ft is a multiplier of error of about 900,to make it easy,lets call it a multiplier of 1000.So,.001(for this mental experiment) error in height would translate to 1 in at 100 yds,approx.I do not know how much scope adjustment you have,but lets call it 40 MOA,or 20 MOA from center,not enough,OK.That would mean an error of about .020 plus or minus in the height between front and rear bases.(based on all of my inaccurate assumptions) That will give you some idea what to look for.

If this is a fine old 1917 enfield sporter,I suggest the handcrafted part of it is something the scope base companies just can't hit right every time,it varies.

If your measurement suggests you have a problem,it may take the handcrafted skill to make it right.

What is really hard on a scope,if the front ring and the rear ring are not in perfect alignment,the thin aluminum scope tube distorts when you tighten the rings.
That is real bad on the close tolerance fits and optical alignments,plus the superglue or sealants they use to hold them together.("pop",oops)

Good luck!

Rob62 · October 16, 2012, 07:39 PM

Just one more thought if you are still having problems with the scope.

Take it off and put it on another rifle altogether and sight in with that rifle.

If it sights in on another rifle without any problems the issue will be 99% of the time with the first rifle and or scope bases/rings.

If it turns out to be the scope, I think that getting factory service or replacement will be no problem. I have heard good things about the resurrected Redfield brand of scopes.

Regards,
Rob

UncleGrumpy · October 19, 2012, 06:04 AM

Hi,

I sent the scope and rifle to the gunsmith I got the scope from and told them to sort the problem out.

They were reluctant to blame the scope and said the Kahles probably had another 12" of internal adjustment. What a load of "%^&*"

I still haven't heard back from the shop yet. I will be back with the results.

Cheers

October 6, 2012, 02:54 AM	#1
UncleGrumpy Member Join Date: March 10, 2012 Posts: 42	Redfield Revenge = Big Problem Hi, I tried my new Redfield Revenge 6-18x44 on my .243 today. I have had a big problem getting the vertical adjustment any where near the target. I use a homemade target printed on a letter sized card. At the end of trying, I had the scope adjustment wound all the way up, aiming the fat part of the lower post level with the top of the card and the bullet was striking 1" up from the bottom of the target. It's almost like having ultrahigh rings on the rear and std height on the front. Is there a major adjustment to compensate for this error or have I got a piece of junk?

October 16, 2012, 07:39 PM	#6
Rob62 Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 1999 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 560	Just one more thought if you are still having problems with the scope. Take it off and put it on another rifle altogether and sight in with that rifle. If it sights in on another rifle without any problems the issue will be 99% of the time with the first rifle and or scope bases/rings. If it turns out to be the scope, I think that getting factory service or replacement will be no problem. I have heard good things about the resurrected Redfield brand of scopes. Regards, Rob __________________ NRA & NAHC Life Member

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October 6, 2012, 05:14 AM	#2
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I'd start by verifying you have the correct bases for your rifle. Next question,what kind of rifle is it?Specifically,is it a sporterized milsurp or any other vintage rifle that may show tolerance variation at the rear bridge in particular.?(like stripper clip boss grinding). Did you buy quality rings/mounts?Do they seem to sit down and fit line to line? Really,putting on a scope seems so simple,and sometimes it is,but there are a lot of ways to get it wrong. Bases tight on the rifleset the lower half of the rings on.No burrs,good clean fitup.Snug them up .Then set the scope tube in.Anything but a perfect drop in means lapping the rings.When you put the caps on ,use something,a dime,a credit card,etc as a gage to get the same gap between the upper and lower all around,then go around and tighten all the screws about 1/8 turn at a time till you just get some friction.Square up the reticle and set eye relief.Tighten like you were torquing a cylinder head.Not to crazy on the torque,its a thin aluminum tube. Now,pull the bolt out.Sandbag the rifle.A buddy can help here.Look through the bore at an aiming point about 40 yds out.Have your buddy hold the bore on target while you twist knobs to get the crosshairs on target.. Use a bigger target,and shoot zero right on at 40 yds or so.You should be able to see your bullet holes in the scope.When you have that,back the target to 100 yds. If you still have the problem,talk to your gunsmith.It may be you need your bases machined,or shimmed,etc.Likely you will need your rings lapped.Height problems translate to ring misalignment.Bending your scope tightening the rings is bad. I don't use them,but some solve this problem with Burris Posi-line rings.They have eccentric sleeves that will solve your problem,likely. You might check to see you do not have a sling swivel screw bearing on the barrel.

October 6, 2012, 06:57 AM	#3
Remington74 Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2012 Location: Carthage, NY Posts: 231	At one time I had a rifle, can't recall the brand or model now, that had different height bases for the front and rear. Not a problem except the mounting holes location allowed them to fit in either position. Of course on the first try I had them reversed from what they should have been and I don't remember if I was shooting the ground or hitting the sky with it, but it was one or the other. Reversed the mounts and all was fixed, gun shot and the bullet hit where the crosshairs were!!! Mayby check to see if that may be part of your problem?

October 6, 2012, 08:14 PM	#4
UncleGrumpy Member Join Date: March 10, 2012 Posts: 42	hi, I have had this M17 setup for some time now. I had a 7x Kahles on it for 20+ years but decided to go to a higher magnification. As nothing changed i think it must be a scope error. To check the rings I measured from the bottom of the scope tube to top of base and got .250" at either ends.

October 6, 2012, 09:26 PM	#5
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	Pardon me for not being familiar with an M-17. Are we talking about a 1917 Enfield? If so,part of the project was removing the sight ears and reshaping the rear bridge. All this is subject to whatever variables the gunsmith who did the work created. I will assume you do not have access to a nice granit surface plate ,a height gage,etc,thats ok. Lets call the bottom of the receiver,the flat part that the mag box engages,the best datum plane we have.Maybe with calipers or a mic,you can get between the feed rails and get a measurement from the flat bottom of the receiver over the top of the scope base.You may need to use a pin or a little flat piece of steel for a bridge over the feed rails.What the number is does not matter,just compare the front and rear.They should be the same,or very close. A quick,head math estimate,if you have 4 in ring spacing,that is 3 a foot,times 300 ft is a multiplier of error of about 900,to make it easy,lets call it a multiplier of 1000.So,.001(for this mental experiment) error in height would translate to 1 in at 100 yds,approx.I do not know how much scope adjustment you have,but lets call it 40 MOA,or 20 MOA from center,not enough,OK.That would mean an error of about .020 plus or minus in the height between front and rear bases.(based on all of my inaccurate assumptions) That will give you some idea what to look for. If this is a fine old 1917 enfield sporter,I suggest the handcrafted part of it is something the scope base companies just can't hit right every time,it varies. If your measurement suggests you have a problem,it may take the handcrafted skill to make it right. What is really hard on a scope,if the front ring and the rear ring are not in perfect alignment,the thin aluminum scope tube distorts when you tighten the rings. That is real bad on the close tolerance fits and optical alignments,plus the superglue or sealants they use to hold them together.("pop",oops) Good luck!

October 19, 2012, 06:04 AM	#7
UncleGrumpy Member Join Date: March 10, 2012 Posts: 42	Hi, I sent the scope and rifle to the gunsmith I got the scope from and told them to sort the problem out. They were reluctant to blame the scope and said the Kahles probably had another 12" of internal adjustment. What a load of "%^&*" I still haven't heard back from the shop yet. I will be back with the results. Cheers