Winchester 1873 SRC with english proof marks

Centurion · May 18, 2020, 10:59 AM

Hi folks!

Did you any of you ever know about one? It is a 1873 saddle ring carbine from 1887 in 44 WCF.

It has british proof marks that could be seen in the attached pictures. All are London proof marks for black powder era guns.

And it looks like R. JONES was its importer to Manchester and Liverpool. How this carbine made to come to South America should be another story... Who knows...

It is fully original except for 3 screws and lacking of the saddle ring. And I use to shoot it on regular basis because it is in perfect working condition.

Any comments will be much appreciated.

Thanks!

Hawg · May 18, 2020, 12:42 PM

The 1873 Winchester was very popular in South America. The London proofs were done when it was imported.

Centurion · May 18, 2020, 01:58 PM

Thanks Hawg! I knew it is very popular in South America, where it was also called "Carpinchero" or "Tigrero", because somebody used it to hunt carpinchos (capybara) or tigres (really jaguars, not tigers).

And I supposed it was sent to Europe maybe during the 1890s, then the british import marks, but wanted to know if somebody there in the states saw another one like this before.

Thanks again and best regards!

Hawg · May 18, 2020, 06:15 PM

Not to Europe. Rifles imported to British Commonwealth's like British Guiana would have had proofs added upon importation.

Centurion · May 18, 2020, 06:52 PM

Understood. So you say that maybe was sold to some South American British Commonwealth's country and the seller was R Jones from Manchester or Liverpool. Right?

Hawg · May 19, 2020, 03:59 AM

I would think so but I'm no expert.

**Mike Irwin** · May 19, 2020, 08:02 AM

Interesting proofs...

And I think it points to a different history of your rifle than you think...

One of those proofs is for nitro powder cartridges, and another is one that came into use post 1925...

That set of proof marks is often seen on commercial firearms that were sent to Britain through an appeal made by the National Rifle Association (and some other groups) for its members to donate firearms that would be used to arm British home guardsmen to defend against German invasion.

The NRA's appeal collected over 7,000 rifles, shotguns, and handguns from its members to be sent to Britain.

From NRA's page (https://home.nra.org/about-the-nra):

"Meanwhile, the NRA continued its commitment to training, education and marksmanship. During World War II, the association offered its ranges to the government, developed training materials, encouraged members to serve as plant and home guard members, and developed training materials for industrial security. NRA members even reloaded ammunition for those guarding war plants. Incidentally, the NRA's call to help arm Britain in 1940 resulted in the collection of more than 7,000 firearms for Britain's defense against potential invasion by Germany (Britain had virtually disarmed itself with a series of gun-control laws enacted between World War I and World War II)."

Here's a write up on the program along with the ad that was placed in sporting magazines at the time:

http://www.twinbuttebunch.org/index....=misc.sendguns

It's interesting to note that nowhere is ammunition mentioned, and given the likely wide range of firearms that were donated and in varying chamberings it's likely that most were either simply warehoused or destroyed as being useless.

However, both Kynoch and Eley, the British ammunition manufacturers, were loading some of these rounds commercially, including rounds like the .32-20 and the .44-40, both of which had proved popular in British colonies in Asia and South America.

Those proof marks by no means proves that your rifle was part of the appeal, but I think there's a pretty good chance that it was.

If you go to this site you can click through some pictures (click on the picture to advance), a couple of which show firearms that were donated by American citizens. The first one is of Women's Auxiliaries unloading a shipment of Model 1894 Winchester rifles sent directly from Winchester for use by the Home Guard.

https://laststandonzombieisland.com/...by-home-guard/

**Mike Irwin** · May 19, 2020, 08:05 AM

Oh crap...

All of that and I may have read the proofs incorrectly...

Centurion · May 19, 2020, 09:09 AM

Don't worry about that, it happens...

I saw that proof marks from the NRA proof marks list (attached file), and all of it looked like being from the black powder era.

May 19, 2020, 08:02 AM	#7
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Interesting proofs... And I think it points to a different history of your rifle than you think... One of those proofs is for nitro powder cartridges, and another is one that came into use post 1925... That set of proof marks is often seen on commercial firearms that were sent to Britain through an appeal made by the National Rifle Association (and some other groups) for its members to donate firearms that would be used to arm British home guardsmen to defend against German invasion. The NRA's appeal collected over 7,000 rifles, shotguns, and handguns from its members to be sent to Britain. From NRA's page (https://home.nra.org/about-the-nra): "Meanwhile, the NRA continued its commitment to training, education and marksmanship. During World War II, the association offered its ranges to the government, developed training materials, encouraged members to serve as plant and home guard members, and developed training materials for industrial security. NRA members even reloaded ammunition for those guarding war plants. Incidentally, the NRA's call to help arm Britain in 1940 resulted in the collection of more than 7,000 firearms for Britain's defense against potential invasion by Germany (Britain had virtually disarmed itself with a series of gun-control laws enacted between World War I and World War II)." Here's a write up on the program along with the ad that was placed in sporting magazines at the time: http://www.twinbuttebunch.org/index....=misc.sendguns It's interesting to note that nowhere is ammunition mentioned, and given the likely wide range of firearms that were donated and in varying chamberings it's likely that most were either simply warehoused or destroyed as being useless. However, both Kynoch and Eley, the British ammunition manufacturers, were loading some of these rounds commercially, including rounds like the .32-20 and the .44-40, both of which had proved popular in British colonies in Asia and South America. Those proof marks by no means proves that your rifle was part of the appeal, but I think there's a pretty good chance that it was. If you go to this site you can click through some pictures (click on the picture to advance), a couple of which show firearms that were donated by American citizens. The first one is of Women's Auxiliaries unloading a shipment of Model 1894 Winchester rifles sent directly from Winchester for use by the Home Guard. https://laststandonzombieisland.com/...by-home-guard/ __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 19, 2020, 08:05 AM	#8
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Oh crap... All of that and I may have read the proofs incorrectly... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 18, 2020, 12:42 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	The 1873 Winchester was very popular in South America. The London proofs were done when it was imported.

May 18, 2020, 01:58 PM	#3
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	Thanks Hawg! I knew it is very popular in South America, where it was also called "Carpinchero" or "Tigrero", because somebody used it to hunt carpinchos (capybara) or tigres (really jaguars, not tigers). And I supposed it was sent to Europe maybe during the 1890s, then the british import marks, but wanted to know if somebody there in the states saw another one like this before. Thanks again and best regards!

May 18, 2020, 06:15 PM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Not to Europe. Rifles imported to British Commonwealth's like British Guiana would have had proofs added upon importation.

May 18, 2020, 06:52 PM	#5
Centurion Senior Member Join Date: May 9, 2016 Posts: 270	Understood. So you say that maybe was sold to some South American British Commonwealth's country and the seller was R Jones from Manchester or Liverpool. Right?

May 19, 2020, 03:59 AM	#6
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I would think so but I'm no expert.