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Old March 19, 2019, 08:16 PM   #1
rebs
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neck sizing ?

How many of you guys neck size only on your brass for a 223 bolt gun ?
What are the pros and cons ?
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Old March 20, 2019, 06:25 AM   #2
AVirginian
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I would if I had one.

Neck sizing works the brass less and has a better chamber fit. I do neck size for other rifle cartridges.
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Old March 20, 2019, 08:39 AM   #3
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Dont know about .223, but the only rifle I own right now that I neck size for is my 300 win mag. As stated before they fit the chamber better and it works the brass less. With my 300 win mag if I full length sized I would be moving the shoulder back .015". In my opinion that is working the brass too much.

My 270 wsm for example needs to be full length sized every time. If not I meet resistance when chambering them. Although that rifle has a really tight chamber. I assume made to minimum specification.
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Old March 20, 2019, 11:07 AM   #4
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do you guys see any difference in accuracy between neck and fl sizing ?
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Old March 20, 2019, 12:46 PM   #5
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I will neck size 223 brass that has been fired in my rifle...Ruger American. All other brass of unknown origin get the FL treatment until it has been fired in my rifle.
I use a 55 grain Hornady FMJ SPBT projectile over 24 grains of 223 with a CCI 400 primer. Case trim is 1.750 and COL is 2.23. Comparing FL sized cases to neck sized only, I see negligible difference in groups at 100 yards. I neck size for the ease and not having to use case lube when sizing.
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Old March 20, 2019, 01:10 PM   #6
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Over a long period of time of carefully measuring a lot of groups, you might see a bit of difference in group size. However, it will probably be negligible. I used to turn necks and neck size only...until I realized that for hunting purposes it was a waste of time. Neck sizing only does save some time loading until you're forced to FL the case at some point in time. If you're a bench rest competitor, it's all worth what ever you can squeeze out of it. For me it's not.
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Old March 20, 2019, 01:26 PM   #7
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Honestly I don't see a difference in accuracy for any of my rifles between full length and neck sizing. That's why I only neck size Belted magnum cartridges usually. I assume that Factory ammunition still headspaces on the belt and that's the reason for the Shoulder being pushed so far forward after firing. I am not certain though. With this 300 win mag I have. I have 20 pieces of brass that have been fired 5 times and no sign of case failure yet. I am sure I would see something by now if I was pushing the shoulder back .015 every time I size and then pushing it forward everytime I fire it.
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Old March 20, 2019, 01:44 PM   #8
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Biggest downside is you'll have to FL resize 'em eventually anyway.
How you size has nothing whatever to do with accuracy. It's strictly a case life extender. Don't think I'd bother with .223. The stuff is everywhere.
"...headspaces on the belt..." Belted cases only headspace on the belt. And you can't change that. Cartridges do not have headspace.
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Old March 20, 2019, 02:37 PM   #9
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Thank you for all the replies I appreciate it.
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Old March 20, 2019, 04:39 PM   #10
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I have heard that with neck sizing, you will eventually need to full length size.
This has not happened to me yet.
I did a test with my Stevens 200 in 7mm-08AI.
Using PPU brass.
Fed 210M primers
Alliant PP2000
Hornady 139gr SST.
Used 5 casings, (i know, not a large test) i reloaded those 5 cases 30 times. Neck sizing only.
Note, after 10 times i did the paperclip test every load since, to make sure i wasn't going to get head separation.
Trimmed every 2nd loading.

No issues to report.
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Old March 22, 2019, 08:42 PM   #11
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when I fl size brass fired in my AR I have to lower the die so far and let the press cam over to get the shoulder bumped back far enough for my Tikka bolt gun. Is this because of being fired in an AR ? How will they be to fl size if they are fired in my Tikka ?
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Old March 22, 2019, 09:32 PM   #12
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Ask any Bench rest shooter and they will tell you that full length sizing yields more accurate groups than neck sizing. Proper full length sizing, not bottom out the die on the shell holder and then add 2 turns.
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Old March 22, 2019, 10:40 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by reynolds357 View Post
Ask any Bench rest shooter and they will tell you that full length sizing yields more accurate groups than neck sizing. Proper full length sizing, not bottom out the die on the shell holder and then add 2 turns.
I figure all you need to full length size the case as far as the die will do it. Is a slight advancement of the die. For example with my 270 wsm or my 6.5 creedmoor. If I put the ram all the way up and screw the die down until it touches the shell holder. Then when I size a case. There will be space between the shell holder and the die leaving a small portion of the case that has not been sized. If I then advance the die 1/8 of a turn. I can feel the Firm contact between the shell holder and die. Also you can see that there is no longer a space between the die and holder. They make firm contact and advance the case as far into the die as far as it will go.

I assume that your "2 turns" comment was a bit Sarcastic?

Also I neck size with my full length die. I am not shooting competitions or anything so I don't buy any special dies. The amount I have to back the die out to size the entire neck without touching the shoulder is trial and error, but usually also ends up to be about 1/8 turn.
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Old March 23, 2019, 02:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by AVirginian View Post
Neck sizing works the brass less and has a better chamber fit.
What is 'better' about it? Given the choice, I prefer to have the bullet aligned in the throat, rather than the case aligned in the chamber.

If you full-length size correctly for the chamber, bottle-neck cases will usually give-out either at the neck or the primer pocket, just the same as if you neck size them. Correctly sizing the body of the case makes little or no practical difference to case life compared to neck sizing.
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Old March 23, 2019, 06:42 AM   #15
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Rebs,
Possibly what you should be doing is segregating your brass.
As you don't NEED to full length size everytime for acceptable accuracy in the bolt gun. But the AR should be full length sized every time.

A turret press makes this an easier process, as all the dies are in the turret, and you can advance them as a single stage press with no need to mess with the dies.
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Old March 23, 2019, 07:55 AM   #16
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I bet it does make a difference when you are working the brass enough to move the shoulder forward and back by .015-.020 every time you fire and size. Example some belted magnum rifles.

My other rifles are all full length sized every time.
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Old March 23, 2019, 08:02 AM   #17
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My brass is separated for the AR band the Tikka bolt gun. I was resizing some of the AR brass to load for the bolt gun. I have since ordered brand new brass that will only be for the bolt gun. I am thinking I will continue to load for the AR on my progressive press and load on my single stage for the bolt gun. I guess the biggest problem was bumping the shoulder back on the fired AR brass so it would fit in my bolt gun ?
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Old March 23, 2019, 08:22 AM   #18
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If am desiring to make the load compatible between several rifles, usually full lenth size the brass. If certain rifles take advantage of neck sizing, like belted, than i neck size for several loadings. If recovering brass from several semi autos and it needs to be compatible with some bolts, than i use sb die.

Lots of alternatives depending on situation. Sure alot of BR shooters full length size, but are they may have very tight chambers etc.

End up doing what works for want i want to accomplish, there is no "best".
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Old March 23, 2019, 09:18 AM   #19
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Ask any Bench rest shooter and they will tell you that full length sizing yields more accurate groups than neck sizing. Proper full length sizing, not bottom out the die on the shell holder and then add 2 turns.
The reloader that started that cute little story about bench resters full length sizing had (and "they have been doing it for decades", 'he said') to modify his response once he learned to reload; meaning he was making this stuff up when he went from team shooting to being a reloader/adviser.

What did he add? He went from full length sizing to 'full length sizing' to bumping the shoulder back .002".

I have found it impossible to bump and or move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support; problem? Not for me, there is nothing about full case body support that I do not understand, I do understand the problems presented when trying to size a case with a seating die (the seating die does not have case body support).

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Old March 23, 2019, 09:29 PM   #20
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I do it for my Model 12 Long Range Savage. For one thing I use a Lee Collet Die.I do not have to lube cases. Also no need to tumble them as none hit the ground. So I save some labor, and time right off the bat. Also I do get measurable improvement in accuracy. The first time after the initial fire forming gives me some increase in accuracy. The next time after, and all subsequent times there after it is fully fire formed. I have some Hornady cases that I have run 14 firings that the primer pockets are still tight, and there is no extra effort needed to close the bolt on them. I got over 20 firings from some LC cases before the primer pockets started to get loose.
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Old March 24, 2019, 01:43 PM   #21
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Quote:
The reloader that started that cute little story about bench resters full length sizing had (and "they have been doing it for decades", 'he said') to modify his response once he learned to reload; meaning he was making this stuff up when he went from team shooting to being a reloader/adviser.

What did he add? He went from full length sizing to 'full length sizing' to bumping the shoulder back .002".

I have found it impossible to bump and or move the shoulder back with a die that has full body support; problem? Not for me, there is nothing about full case body support that I do not understand, I do understand the problems presented when trying to size a case with a seating die (the seating die does not have case body support).

F. Guffey
As usual, I have no clue what you are talking about. I do know that the vast majority of b.r. shooters full length size. That means sizing the body and the shoulder to some degree. Technically, that amount could be 1/10,000".
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Old March 25, 2019, 09:19 AM   #22
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As usual, I have no clue what you are talking about.
It has been suggested reloading is not for everyone. The team shooter was suggesting all reloaders 'Dulack' bench resters; he was suggesting all a reloader had to do was full length sized with no consideration given to the difference in chambers between benchrester chambers and the chambers a reloader is reloading for. I have one 30/06 that has a chamber that has .016" clearance between the shoulder of the chamber and the shoulder of a minimum length/full length sized case.

I understand all of that is over your head but if I fire a factory, over the counter, new minimum length cases in that chamber I have .016" difference in the length of the chamber from the chamber shoulder to the bolt face and the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the head of the case.

And I understand you are still confused because you believe the rifle has a head space problem; me? I am not allowed to disagree.

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Old March 25, 2019, 09:30 AM   #23
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The team shooter was suggesting all reloaders 'Dulack' bench resters;
I built and was installing a shrimp boat engine in a place called Dulack, I asked a residence of Dulack why they called this place 'Dulack'. He asked Duplantis, Duplantis said, "Because down here we Dulack we want to".

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Old March 25, 2019, 10:10 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by rebs View Post
My brass is separated for the AR band the Tikka bolt gun. I was resizing some of the AR brass to load for the bolt gun. I have since ordered brand new brass that will only be for the bolt gun. I am thinking I will continue to load for the AR on my progressive press and load on my single stage for the bolt gun. I guess the biggest problem was bumping the shoulder back on the fired AR brass so it would fit in my bolt gun ?
rebs, not all chambers are created equal so neck sizing doesn't always work. Once you fire a round in your AR it becomes formed to that chamber minus normal spring back. Normal spring back is the amount that the brass springs back after firing the round and requires that the case has not become work hardened.

Your Tikka chamber is obviously different than your AR so a piece of fire formed brass from your AR may not fit well in your Tikka. Neck sizing won't make it fit so you would need to full resize your brass in order for it to fit properly in your Tikka.

You mentioned that you had to lower your die all the way and cam over in order for it to fit in your Tikka. This may be an indication that your brass has become work hardened. Because you are using brass that is fire formed to another chamber, the only way to know for sure is to anneal the brass and try again.

You are on the right track in ordering new brass and keeping the AR and Tikka brass separated. When you get your new brass, do a full resize, trim to length and then load it up for the individual rifles and shoot it. You should be able to neck size several times after that but the amount of times is more dependent on how long it takes for the brass to become work hardened than it does anything else.

Once it does become work hardened, a full length resize may not fix the problem and you'll need to anneal and start over as if it was new brass. This is true only if your cases show no signs of stress or cracking. Discard those and buy new brass.

Last edited by LineStretcher; March 25, 2019 at 10:17 AM.
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Old March 25, 2019, 01:02 PM   #25
F. Guffey
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You mentioned that you had to lower your die all the way and cam over in order for it to fit in your Tikka. This may be an indication that your brass has become work hardened. Because you are using brass that is fire formed to another chamber, the only way to know for sure is to anneal the brass and try again.
The old saying? Neck size the case 4 times and then start over by full length sizing and I ask: How is it possible to start over with a case that has been fired 5 times? If the case is worked hardened it would make more sense to anneal the case. And then we go back to neck sizing 4 times and then start over? When full length sizing the reloader is sizing the case to minimum length. (no reloaders with 'one exception' understands what that means). When the die is adjusted down to the shell holder with 1/4 additional turn the die is adjusted to return the case to minimum length/full length size. Minimum length means the case is .005" shorter from the shoulder of the case to the case head than the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face (in the perfect world).

Back to neck sizing: I have neck sizing dies, I do not use them but I have them just in case. I neck size with a full length sizing die, my sizing dies have threads, threads make my sizing dies adjustable, if I find it necessary to reduce the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head I increase the ability of the press to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. When neck sizing with a full length sizing die I have no problem adjusting the die off the shell holder with a shim; I have never had to start over by full length sizing.

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