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Old February 7, 2018, 08:48 PM   #26
Theohazard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkCO
Yes, if inside 200, you will never see a difference between 6mm and 6.5mm on deer, except the better chance of seeing the impact with the silencer attached. The .243 Predator sure seems to be the ticket for you.
Awesome! Thanks again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062
My understanding is the length of a quality suppressor provides some additional velocity. Possibly not as much as normal barrel, but some.
I’ve never done velocity testing myself, but the reports I’ve seen on suppressor boost are usually around 10 - 20 FPS with centerfire cartridges, and it doesn’t seem to correlate with the quality of the silencer. The equivalent length of barrel would provide a lot more velocity than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwilliamson062
Going to be quite long.
Yeah, I might decide not to bother with the can, but I want it as an option.
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Old February 7, 2018, 09:25 PM   #27
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My 6.5 Creedmoor is incredibly flat shooting. 5/5 hits on steel at 1000 yards (with a killer scope)
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Old February 7, 2018, 09:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXAZ View Post
My 6.5 Creedmoor is incredibly flat shooting. 5/5 hits on steel at 1000 yards (with a killer scope)


It seems that flat shooting would be counterintuitive for 1K yd shots. Flat trajectory is a product of high velocity, is it not? And the Creedmoor would want VLD (long, heavy) bullets for 1K. Unless your just stating that your hold over for 1K is minimal with the Creedmoor...?

Haha, bear with me, I’m still working to understand the subtleties of the 6.5wondermoor.
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Old February 7, 2018, 10:30 PM   #29
Whistlebritches
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I love the Ruger American.Mine is in 308.A fine caliber for deer under 200,I use mine out to 400.Also a fine caliber for varmints.....also out to 400.

I too haven't become enamored with the 6.5 CM.Either I'm missing something or it was never there........my gut says the latter.
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Old February 7, 2018, 10:59 PM   #30
Sure Shot Mc Gee
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Food for thought:
Another caliber for you're applications: 223.
Cartridge is recognized for legal Big Game Hunting in many States.
IMO: 223 would be slightly better suited for small game taking than either a 243 or 6.5 CM. As far as brand of rifle. That depends on how wide you're willing to open your wallet. Although I'm kind'a partial to Remington models myself.
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Old February 8, 2018, 12:11 AM   #31
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You made a good choice. Alot of cartridges would fit the bill but few have as many off the shelf choices as the 243. It has a long proven history. Ruger is a fine choice. I have a Tikka T3 and it is a tack driver wit 90 gr accubonds. It dont like hevier bullets but those accubonds dro whitetail in their tracks.
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Old February 8, 2018, 01:36 AM   #32
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ammo

I think you're on the right track with the .243. The 6.5CM is all the rage these days, and is more cartridge than the .243, but I think the 6.5CM, at present has an Achilles heel. That weakness being that Creedmoor ammo is not as widely available as .243. Yes, it is out there, certainly more than just a short while ago, but .243 is widespread. Any place carrying ammo, will likely have some .243. I just don't see 6.5 on the shelves that much....yet anyhow. Sure, the gunshops have it, usually, but at this time .243 is nearly everywhere.
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Old February 8, 2018, 06:53 AM   #33
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Bamaranger has a point. I had figured I would handload up something "special" for my TC Venture .243.

I sighted it in using Federal that was as simple as finding by turning around and picking it up off the shelf when I bought the gun (or at Wal-Mart) and then switched to Federal copper for hunting. Its sub MOA like TC claims it would be. I would guess in the hands of a good bench shooter you could get some pretty impressive groups out of it.
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Old February 8, 2018, 08:23 AM   #34
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Quote:
Food for thought:
Another caliber for you're applications: 223.
Cartridge is recognized for legal Big Game Hunting in many States.
IMO: 223 would be slightly better suited for small game taking than either a 243 or 6.5 CM. As far as brand of rifle. That depends on how wide you're willing to open your wallet. Although I'm kind'a partial to Remington models myself.
Not a bad point! I have the RAP in that exact caliber, and, thought not a legal deer rifle in my state, I would feel completely confident using it as such. It's my favorite rifle for all around fun. In fact, I ordered another one Tuesday. Right now the one I have is set up for coyotes, groundhogs (for the warmer months), and a certain pillaging raccoon that has been raiding the in-laws bird feeders. So far he's proven elusive except for the wee hours of the morning. Ahem! I digress... the main thing will come down to the deer hunting laws in your state, but if they allow and you like it, I give the notion two thumbs up!

And to add to this consideration - ammo is inexpensive and readily available everywhere. You'll enjoy a nice long barrel life. Low recoil. Easily suppressed with subsonic ammo available from the factory. It has the best magazine system in the RAP line-up. 1/8 twist is very flexible for different load types. I could go on...
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Old February 8, 2018, 09:24 AM   #35
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If OP is never going to hunt anything larger than deer then the .243 is a great choice. Not a big fan of the .223 but it will do the job.
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Old February 8, 2018, 10:44 AM   #36
johnwilliamson062
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Quote:
I’ve never done velocity testing myself, but the reports I’ve seen on suppressor boost are usually around 10 - 20 FPS with centerfire cartridges, and it doesn’t seem to correlate with the quality of the silencer. The equivalent length of barrel would provide a lot more velocity than that.
I believe it has to do with construction method. Wipes obviously are at one end of the spectrum and an almost no clearance drilled tube at the opposite end(an expensive precision machined custom item approaching an integral suppressor).
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Old February 9, 2018, 03:29 PM   #37
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Honestly, I would say anything within reason that falls between .243 Winchester and .300 Win Mag in caliber and energy. Then you have your outliers like your traditional lever action cartridges.
You can't go wrong with 270 win, .25-06, .243 Winchester, 6.5 creedmoor, 7-08, 308 Win, 30-06, 7 Rem mag, any of the WSM family, 7 Rem mag, 264 Win mag.


My current favorite is 6.5X284 Norma in a Savage predator.
My old go to is a mod 700 7Rum, but its wayyyyyy overkill.
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Old February 9, 2018, 07:32 PM   #38
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The ruger American is a good rifle. The 243 has been around for many decades and so you should be able to find ammo easily. All of the rounds mentioned are fine for deer. The 308 is most common and heavier than needed in PA.

I like the 6mm Creedmoor because any one could handle the recoil and it is vary accurate will beyond 200 Yds. The 6mm C is the round of the future. Even a youngster or small women can handle it. So flinching should be minimal. After all it's hard to hit the target with your eyes closed (flinching).
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Old February 9, 2018, 09:29 PM   #39
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.243 or .30-30 sound like good choices. Modest recoil, mild report, great ammunition availability. People buy heavier calibers, but they aren't really needed.
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Old February 9, 2018, 09:59 PM   #40
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I was dead-set on the Ruger Predator until someome told me about the TC Compass. I’ve decided on .243 for the caliber, but now both rifles are interesting me and they both come in .243. They both fit my criteria, but here are the primary differences I see between those rifles:

-The TC has a 1 MOA accuracy guarantee with a 3-shot group and premium ammo, the Ruger doesn't (though I'm not sure how valuable this guarantee is in real life).

-The Ruger has a 1:9 twist, the TC a 1:10.

-The TC is a little bit heavier (about a half lb.).

-The Ruger has that wonkey safety lever on the trigger and the TC doesn’t. We have both a TC Venture and a regular Ruger American in the shop where I work, and the trigger on the TC feels a little better to me. I know they both can be adjusted, but I’m not sure I like the lever on the Ruger’s trigger.

-The Ruger accepts AI mags, the TC’s are proprietary.

-At employee pricing, the TC is about $75 cheaper for me. And on top of that, TC currently offers a $75 rebate on the Compass, so it would be $150 cheaper overall. That's a big difference considering money is pretty tight right now.


Here are my main thoughts on those differences:

1) It's nice to have an accuracy guarantee from TC in case the rifle I get happens to be a dud, but does Ruger's excellent customer service pretty much guarantee I'll get a rifle that will shoot as well, just without the official written guarantee?

2) The weight: Will I notice a half-pound difference in the field?

3) The trigger: I’ve never actually shot a Ruger. Is the trigger lever no big deal and something I’d quickly get used to?

4) The twist rate: Is the TC going to properly stabilize heavier deer loads? Is the Ruger going to spin lighter varmint loads too fast?

5) The mags: Is the easy availability of cheap AI-pattern mags in varying capacity a nice feature in a hunting rifle? I know mag availability is a nice feature in my ARs and handguns, but I’m not sure it’s much of an advantage here.

Thanks again to everyone for the help!
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Last edited by Theohazard; February 9, 2018 at 10:12 PM.
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Old February 10, 2018, 02:30 AM   #41
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A 1:10 twist will stabalize pretty much any hunting bullet you want up to 100 grains. So I doubt you have anything to worry about.

If you're hiking around all day carrying the rifle over several miles a half pound can be a big deal.. If all you're doing is walking into a blind or tree stand you'll never know the difference. Look at how you hunt, IMO having an extra half pound of rifle isn't a bad thing in larger caliber rifles not so much in a .243.

All your other concerns really don't matter, If you have factory defects I'm pretty sure Ruger and T/C will both fix the rifle. You'll get used to the trigger safety very quickly. As long as the magazine functions correctly, that's all that matters in a hunting rifle.
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Old February 10, 2018, 03:28 AM   #42
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I removed the safety blade from the trigger on my Ruger. It has a beautiful trigger pull right now...just under 3 pounds. I figured it has a regular safety and no reason to have a second one.
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Old February 10, 2018, 08:13 AM   #43
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I bought a Venture basically because the trigger safety on the Ruger American annoyed me. I have been happy with my purchase but give it some leeway for being a budget rifle.

A) Yes the performance really is as good as they claim accuracy wise. It shot sub MOA with the first premium ammo I tried (Federal) and when I switched to Federal copper for hunting it shot sub MOA. I'm not going to be that good in the field so its good to go.

B) I like the tang safety placement on the Ruger better.

C) The bolt throw is a little stiffer than expected. Not a deal killer.

D) The other bolt action rifles I have shot have been open at the top - I have used a M77 in .270 many many years. I like that better than the TC set-up. I notice it when unloading the rifle with a live round - its just not as handy.

E) I dislike removable magazines on hunting rifles. The Ruger magazines are probably far more readily available than the TC ones and will be forever

F) I liked the feel of the stock on the TC better than the Ruger.

In the end if I had to do it over again I could easily justify either the TC or the Ruger American if I were buying a sub $400 MOA rifle (I have no reason to believe the Ruger would not be - or be close enough). The accuracy guarantee sold me on the TC though.

For the record if I were doing it again I would spend a little more money and likely go with an M77 even if accuracy is not always as good. While the performance of these economy rifles is every bit on par or better than the more expensive ones some of the cost cutting moves annoy me in the end and considering I am going to have the rifle for many years that annoyance may build up. That last sentence may not be entirely true - I expected one of my nephews as going to lay claim to the TC this year but that is a different story and it did not go that way.

Actually I'd find a single shot like a number 1 but that is getting a long way from the conversation.
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Old February 11, 2018, 07:24 AM   #44
jmr40
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Here ya go.

https://ruger.com/products/americanR...ets/26973.html


The Ruger American Predators are tack drivers. I paid $389 OTD for mine in 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor. I like the newer versions that take AI mags better than mine. If I can simply buy another stock to accept those mags I'll upgrade, if not I'll be selling one of mine and buy a new one to be able to use the other magazines.

The 243 isn't a bad choice. It'll kill deer and is the better option if varmints are the primary game hunted.

But I like the 6.5 Creedmoor better. It is the better deer and up cartridge. It will basically do anything a 270, 308, or 7-08 will do, but with 25% to 35% less recoil. With the lighter weight ammo it is a good varmint round. Ammo is now available everywhere including Walmart and at about the same price as any other common ammo.

Quote:
I’m still working to understand the subtleties of the 6.5wondermoor.
The Creedmoor started as a long range target round about 10 years ago. it utilizes very aerodynamic, very accurate bullets instead of relying on speed. Target shooters don't care about flat trajectory, they can always zero the rifle for the ranges they are shooting. What matters is how long the bullet stays supersonic. A 308 is only supersonic out to a little over 1000 yards. The 6.5 Creedmoor out to 2000 yards. The 300 WM only beats it by about 200 yards.

For hunting you get the best bullet performance if impact speeds are between 1800 fps and 2800 fps. If they impact faster than about 2800 fps they often don't stay together. Below 1800 fps and you often don't get any expansion. Many rounds that start bullets at 3000+ fps often fail at closer ranges. Others drop below 1800 fps at 300-400 yards depending on the bullet chosen. The 6.5 Creedmoor shoots a 143-147 gr bullet to 2700 fps at the muzzle. That is enough bullet for any animal on the lower 48, and retains 1800 fps out to about 700 yards.

And it does it with about 12 ft lbs of recoil. Just for comparison a 243 is about 11 ft lbs, a 308 or 7-08 is in the 15-18 ft lb range depending on the exact load. Once you get to 270 or 30-06 you're in the 19-22 ft lb range.
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Old February 12, 2018, 10:02 AM   #45
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The "...deer and also something smaller" category is a slim one, IF you want to eat your smaller creatures. Of said creatures are sod rats and yodel pups, then any of the above will be fine.
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Old March 7, 2018, 08:50 PM   #46
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OK, so I finally made a decision on what rifle to get. Or, rather, a decision was made for me in the form of an offer I couldn’t refuse.

I was talking to a coworker (I work at an LGS) about the rifle I want to buy (outlined in the first post of this thread), and I mentioned it would be nice if it had iron sights also.

As a Marine who was trained on the M16A2, I’m very comfortable with iron sights. Also, that would mean I wouldn’t need to invest in a scope right away, but I could always get one in the future. Besides, I hear that most deer in this area are taken at 150 yards or less. If I could hit a torso-sized target at 500 yards with my M16A2 with irons, I’ll bet I could take a deer down at 150 yards with irons.

I mentioned to my coworker that I couldn’t find any rifles in .243 that met all my requirements plus had iron sights. I said I liked the Savage Hog Hunter, but it didn’t come in .243. At that point another coworker chimed in and said he had a Savage Hog Hunter .308 for sale.

It’s a rifle he bought new in gunsmithing school as a project gun. He refinished it with a high-gloss blue finish, fit it with a hand-checkered walnut stock, and smoothed the action. I forget how many rounds he said he’d put through it, but I think it’s less than 100. He wanted $325 for it. He said the checkering isn’t the best (it was his first time doing it), but I don’t really care about that.

So we made the deal and shook on it, and I’m going into work on Friday to get it from him. I can’t wait. The main criticisms I hear of the Hog Hunter are a flimsy stock and a rough action. This rifle has neither. Along with the blued finish, it’s got a great classic look to it (he showed me a picture).

I’ll try to post some pictures for you guys when I get it into my hands. How’d you think I did? It’s not in .243, but .308 should still work for my needs and I couldn’t turn down that price. It seems like $325 is a pretty good deal, even if the checkering isn’t the prettiest (it was hard to see the checkering in the picture he showed me).
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Old March 8, 2018, 08:06 AM   #47
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Congratulations. You will find the 308 a very versatile round.
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Old March 8, 2018, 01:07 PM   #48
Art Eatman
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One aspect of a scoped rifle has to do with early morning or late evening, in poor but legal shooting light. You can tell if that deer is a real deer, a cactus deer, a stump deer or another hunter.
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Old March 8, 2018, 03:21 PM   #49
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Thanks for the info. I guess I’ll probably end up getting a scope for it before deer season, but at least I can shoot it now while I save up for the scope.
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Old March 8, 2018, 05:40 PM   #50
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"The .30/06 is never a mistake" ~ Townsend Whelen.

Factory ammo from 110 gr to 220 grain.

Can reload and one of the reduced load powders and shoot bunnies.
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