Follow up: YouTube Weenies vs .357 Magnum

Sturmpanzer · April 21, 2018, 06:50 AM

New post so it doesnt get buried in the old one..what a can of worms I opened up.. Great responses and info, but I wanted to share this with you all... Lucky Gunner did a months long test of both .38 and .357 ammo in both 2" and "4 barrels...the takeaway is that the .357 is superior to the .38 in both 2 and 4 inch barrels. He included charts for everything using the most popular brands of ammo... Great info, and it should settle this debate as far as ballistcs go. Everyone is different, and the most important thing is utilizing a firearm to your level of either training or comfort... Heres the link... I urge all who are interested to check it out...
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

2damnold4this · April 21, 2018, 08:08 AM

Also from Lucky Gunner:

Gel test results can be useful, but they don’t tell you anything about the effects of recoil. Unfortunately, there is just no practical way to quantify that and put it on our chart. Even so, there is a world of difference between shooting a standard pressure .38 and a high-velocity magnum load and not just in terms of discomfort. Generally speaking, .357 Magnum delivers more recoil than the average gun owner can manage without significantly impairing their ability to shoot quickly and accurately.
Now, if you are not like the average gun owner and you actually practice on a somewhat regular basis, you can probably get decent results shooting some of the less severe magnums out of a steel frame revolver. Out of the six magnum loads that did exceptionally well in our tests, three of them had relatively low recoil compared to the others: The Winchester PDX1, the Remington Golden Saber, and the Speer 135 gr Gold Dot short barrel load. I would probably use one of those three if I wanted a good self-defense magnum load. Looking at the gel test results, there is not a significant difference between these and the loads with heavier recoil.
But also keep in mind that the performance of these magnum loads is also pretty much identical to some of our 9mm loads from the short barrel semi-auto gel tests. For both calibers, the best performing loads showed around 14″-18″ of penetration with an expanded bullet average somewhere between .55” and .75”. There are plenty of reasons you might want to use a revolver instead of a semi-auto for self-defense, but if you’ve primarily been drawn in by the allure of the awesome power of the .357 magnum, you might consider that you could probably get the same ballistic performance out of a 9mm but with a lot less recoil, noise, and muzzle blast. And for that matter, you really aren’t losing a whole lot if you go to one of the better .38s that we tested, and I think that’s going to strike the ideal balance between recoil and effectiveness for most people, particularly in short barrel carry revolver.

I carry the Speer .357 Magnum for short barrels in my K6s. It's one of the milder .357 loads but I would not feel bad about carrying a good .38 load.

Sturmpanzer · April 21, 2018, 08:15 AM

Great info...but he DID shoot thru several barriers in front of the gel, like fabric, denim, etc. Granted, tests aren't real life outcomes, but they do provide a good basis for ballistcs results.... How that translates to real life will always be subjective...

Bob Wright · April 21, 2018, 03:27 PM

Whoops!

KyJim · April 22, 2018, 10:45 PM

I have not seen anyone argue the velocity/terminal ballistics of the .38 spl was equal to or better than the .357 from a short barrel. I have seen arguments that the .38 has certain advantages --- less recoil and more controlability, less muzzle flash in the dark. Me? I keep thinking a 9mm is a good in-between round, especially with available factory loads. A little more umph than a factory .38 spl but not near as much recoil and muzzle flash as the .357. Of course, some will shoot a .357 just as well and won't mind the recoil or muzzle flash.

Buzzcook · April 23, 2018, 12:09 AM

I wouldn't expect any other result. More powder does translate to more power, its physics.

As noted above the question is one of control.

I have another problem, arthritis. The impact from firing a powerful round can exacerbate or even cause arthritis. One of the people I've met can only shoot .22s.
As you should practice with the firearm you plan to carry with the rounds you intend to use if the worst happens; then using a round that will eventually degrade your ability to us a gun at all might be questionable.

arquebus357 · April 23, 2018, 02:42 AM

I think that .38 special cartridges are cuter than .357 cartridges.

Hal · April 23, 2018, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Great info, and it should settle this debate as far as ballistcs go

Yeah ...right....LOL!
If that happens then the Revolver forum will dry up and blow away.

What would be left to argue..err...discuss, yeah that's it,,discuss

JK - well somewhat.

The .38 vs .357 vs 9mm discussions will go on for quite some time.

HighValleyRanch · April 23, 2018, 10:29 AM

One can't make generalizations and say .357 vs. 38 special +P. It really depends on the particular load that you are shooting as well as the firearm it is being shot out of.

As an example, Sturmpanzer says he is shooting 125 grain Golden Sabers. His old gun was the Rossi I guess. But for comparison sake, lets take Lucky Gunner's actual testing out of a 2" snub. The first chart shows the results. I'll be generous and say the average is 1100 fps with the 125 grain and that equals 336 foot pounds ME. (I know ME is not everything, but it's good for paper comparison for our debate).

Now say I'm shooting Buffalobore heavy .38 +P LSWCHP out of my 1 7/8" LCR (and yes I have shot it).
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...t_detail&p=108
Their site says:
➤ 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 60, 2-inch
➤ 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 66, 2.5-inch
➤ 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.) -- Ruger SP101, 3-inch
➤ 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.) -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch
And that is what I got with my own chronograph or pretty close to it.
THIS IS VERY CLOSE TO THE ORIGINAL FBI LOAD.

Now, according the the ballistics calculor, that equal 380 foot pounds ME.
The heavier BB .38 special +P is hotter than the 125 grain .357 golden saber which is consider a medium of the road round.

Now, to be very clear, I am not saying that .38 special equals .357 by any stretch of the imagination. And I even cringe everytime someone tries to point out that since you are shooting .357 out of a short barrel revolver, the .357 looses so much that it's equal to the .38.

I'm just pointing out that it all depends on what load you are choosing rather than .357 over .38 special.
SORRY FOR THE LONG WINDED POST!

JeffK · April 23, 2018, 02:34 PM

I'm a weenie, I guess, when it comes to shooting my 13.8-oz MP340. I've fired lots of different rounds out of it, .38s and .357 magnums, but invariably the .357 magnum is a brutal beast, and twice now it's drawn blood from the webbing between my right thumb and index finger. It's fun once in a great while, but I wear a bicycle half-glove when I shoot magnums out of it - the rest of the time, it's .38's, and I keep .38 +P hollow-points in it at home. Whatever advantage the .357 round has, is more than cancelled out to me by the brutality of firing it, and even if I don't flinch the first time, I'm almost guaranteed to flinch the second time.

moosemike · April 23, 2018, 03:32 PM

A lot of 357 snubbies have 2.5" barrels. I'd love to see the 357 numbers in a 2" vs 2.5" barrel. I'd bet there is a real difference.

HighValleyRanch · April 23, 2018, 03:48 PM

The numbers up above from lucky gunner ARE from a 2" barrel.

Sturmpanzer · April 23, 2018, 06:48 PM

Nice follow up High ValleyRanch!... I have a Ruger 3"barrel Wiley Clapp now...guess it falls in the middle somewhere...

ruggyh · April 24, 2018, 11:27 PM

Quote:

One can't make generalizations and say .357 vs. 38 special +P. It really depends on the particular load that you are shooting as well as the firearm it is being shot out of.

HighValleyRanch

If your going to make any real comparison you need to compare with the same bullet and powder combination.

If you this the 357 will always be on top.

A 38 is a 38, a 38+ is a 38+, a 357 is a 357.
You cant make something it's not no matter how hard you try.

be safe
Ruggy

Hal · April 25, 2018, 03:34 AM

Quote:

If your going to make any real comparison you need to compare with the same bullet and powder combination.

If you this the 357 will always be on top.

Pretty sure about that are you?

(hint/hint/hint) do some research into load development....

Truth is, it can and does go either way.

Use the same powder & same bullet in both .38 spl brass and .357 mag brass & you'll find the results will jump back and forth, with one being slightly faster than the other & with one being slightly more accurate than the other.

There are some powders though, like H110 and W296, that you shouldn't fiddle around with trying reduced loads - - so be careful there.

Others. such as Bullseye, may give some erratic results in the larger (.357 mag) case without some sort of filler.

Overall though, you'll find that using the same loads in the different brass will really give you such erratic results they are meaningless.

The .38 spl and the .357 magnum use different powders and different amounts of the same powders for some very valid reasons. Way too many to go into in the limited scope of this thread.

If you really care to know, take up handloading and find out.

Guv · April 25, 2018, 07:49 AM

^^ Good advice^^
Now I do have an oooold Hornady loading manual with some really hot 38 spl loads!
Same manual has some 357 loads I would hesitate to shoot out of my 357 Max.
Different cartridges with different possible uses. I don't see a problem with that and with respecting that.
Comparing top end loads of one cartridge with bottom end loads for another cartridge is knda silly.

HighValleyRanch · April 25, 2018, 09:09 AM

Quote:

A 38 is a 38, a 38+ is a 38+, a 357 is a 357.
You cant make something it's not no matter how hard you try.

You are missing my point entirely. I'm just saying that some .38 special +P can be hotter than some .357 so it depends on the particular load you are using. It goes all the way back to the OP asking why some choose to shoot .38 in a .357 magnum revolver.

ruggyh · April 25, 2018, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Pretty sure about that are you?

(hint/hint/hint) do some research into load development....

Truth is, it can and does go either way.

Very sure about it

I do a load of load development and pressure testing.

Can purposely down load any cartridge? -yes- that doesn't mean or limit the actual cartridges potential.

Using those conditions to compare the loading is not he same as comparing the cartridges.

Quote:

Use the same powder & same bullet in both .38 spl brass and .357 mag brass & you'll find the results will jump back and forth, with one being slightly faster than the other & with one being slightly more accurate than the other.

Not in testing I have done where powder selection is reasonable and SAAMI pressure limit was used.

Please enlighten us with such a combination.

In the end a cartridge is what it is- no more no less.

Case volume cannot be replaced by any powder.

Quote:

Comparing top end loads of one cartridge with bottom end loads for another cartridge is knda silly.

On this I can agree

be safe
Ruggy

HighValleyRanch · April 25, 2018, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Comparing top end loads of one cartridge with bottom end loads for another cartridge is knda silly.

so is saying that any .357 is hotter than any .38 special.

ruggyh · April 25, 2018, 10:15 AM

Quote:

so is saying that any .357 is hotter than any .38 special.

and I agree

Quote:

A 38 is a 38, a 38+ is a 38+, a 357 is a 357.
You cant make something it's not no matter how hard you try.

I did say this ^

At the end of the day pick a cartridge to do the job you have intended, it easier and safer.

be safe
Ruggy

Bob Wright · April 25, 2018, 10:51 AM

The whole point of carrying whatever cartridge you feel comfortable with that will do the job at hand. If a .38 Special will do what you intend it to do, then why not carry it, no matter the gun it is loaded into. If you have a good .357 Magnum revolver, and have a good .38 Special load, +P or not, carry that combination. The person you're trying to kill can be killed just so dead. His dying words won't be, "You're a YouTube weenie."

Bob Wright

USSR · April 26, 2018, 05:41 AM

So, Sturmpanzer, I'm waiting for your next thread about .44 Special weenies .vs .44 Magnum. Will make about as much sense.

Don

glockman55 · April 26, 2018, 06:49 AM

JeffK, shooting the .357 mag out of that light weight (MP340) is ridiculous, I had one once. but now you take the Ruger sp101 2.25" barrel the .357 is manageable..

briandg · April 26, 2018, 06:20 PM

in my experience, actual recoil doesn't matter to me as much as the violence of the discharge, the noise and shock. recoil among those various middle of the road rounds comes up to about the same range of feeling in the same magnum, to me, but my own +p .38 rounds are far louder and rather unpleasant. given a choice i would put my .357 rounds just a bit higher velocity than the 38 +p out of the .357 with a more moderate 125 grain as opposed to the 115 load in my +p. I can shoot just as quickly and accurately with my .357 in mild 158 as I did with my +p 115.

Like I said, the blast and thump in the chest of the +p are slightly higher than a low powered .357.

Hal · April 27, 2018, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Not in testing I have done where powder selection is reasonable and SAAMI pressure limit was used.

Sorry - I don't buy into that for a second.

YOU made a blanket statement that
"If your going to make any real comparison you need to compare with the same bullet and powder combination.

If you this the 357 will always be on top."

Quote:

Please enlighten us with such a combination.

Take your pick...

You stick XX grains of Bullseye in a .38 spl case under a 125 grain bullet & stick the same amount in a .357 mag case under a 125 grain bullet & you'll get pretty much the same velocity out of both.

On the upper end, stick XXX grains of 2400 in a .38 spl case under a 173 grain cast lead bullet & stick the same amount of 2400 in a .357 magnum case under the same 173 grain cast lead bullet & you get pretty much the same velocity.

That's more or less what Keith did back around the early 1930's.

April 21, 2018, 06:50 AM	#1
Sturmpanzer Junior member Join Date: November 11, 2017 Posts: 116	Follow up: YouTube Weenies vs .357 Magnum New post so it doesnt get buried in the old one..what a can of worms I opened up.. Great responses and info, but I wanted to share this with you all... Lucky Gunner did a months long test of both .38 and .357 ammo in both 2" and "4 barrels...the takeaway is that the .357 is superior to the .38 in both 2 and 4 inch barrels. He included charts for everything using the most popular brands of ammo... Great info, and it should settle this debate as far as ballistcs go. Everyone is different, and the most important thing is utilizing a firearm to your level of either training or comfort... Heres the link... I urge all who are interested to check it out... https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...llistics-test/

April 21, 2018, 08:08 AM	#2
2damnold4this Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Location: Athens, Georgia Posts: 2,526	Also from Lucky Gunner: Gel test results can be useful, but they don’t tell you anything about the effects of recoil. Unfortunately, there is just no practical way to quantify that and put it on our chart. Even so, there is a world of difference between shooting a standard pressure .38 and a high-velocity magnum load and not just in terms of discomfort. Generally speaking, .357 Magnum delivers more recoil than the average gun owner can manage without significantly impairing their ability to shoot quickly and accurately. Now, if you are not like the average gun owner and you actually practice on a somewhat regular basis, you can probably get decent results shooting some of the less severe magnums out of a steel frame revolver. Out of the six magnum loads that did exceptionally well in our tests, three of them had relatively low recoil compared to the others: The Winchester PDX1, the Remington Golden Saber, and the Speer 135 gr Gold Dot short barrel load. I would probably use one of those three if I wanted a good self-defense magnum load. Looking at the gel test results, there is not a significant difference between these and the loads with heavier recoil. But also keep in mind that the performance of these magnum loads is also pretty much identical to some of our 9mm loads from the short barrel semi-auto gel tests. For both calibers, the best performing loads showed around 14″-18″ of penetration with an expanded bullet average somewhere between .55” and .75”. There are plenty of reasons you might want to use a revolver instead of a semi-auto for self-defense, but if you’ve primarily been drawn in by the allure of the awesome power of the .357 magnum, you might consider that you could probably get the same ballistic performance out of a 9mm but with a lot less recoil, noise, and muzzle blast. And for that matter, you really aren’t losing a whole lot if you go to one of the better .38s that we tested, and I think that’s going to strike the ideal balance between recoil and effectiveness for most people, particularly in short barrel carry revolver. I carry the Speer .357 Magnum for short barrels in my K6s. It's one of the milder .357 loads but I would not feel bad about carrying a good .38 load. Last edited by 2damnold4this; April 21, 2018 at 08:18 AM.

April 21, 2018, 03:27 PM	#4
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	Whoops! __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment. Last edited by Bob Wright; April 21, 2018 at 04:02 PM.

April 23, 2018, 03:32 PM	#11
moosemike Senior Member Join Date: July 4, 2009 Location: Lebanon PA Posts: 535	A lot of 357 snubbies have 2.5" barrels. I'd love to see the 357 numbers in a 2" vs 2.5" barrel. I'd bet there is a real difference. __________________ et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos

April 23, 2018, 03:48 PM	#12
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,066	The numbers up above from lucky gunner ARE from a 2" barrel. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

April 21, 2018, 08:15 AM	#3
Sturmpanzer Junior member Join Date: November 11, 2017 Posts: 116	Great info...but he DID shoot thru several barriers in front of the gel, like fabric, denim, etc. Granted, tests aren't real life outcomes, but they do provide a good basis for ballistcs results.... How that translates to real life will always be subjective...

April 22, 2018, 10:45 PM	#5
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	I have not seen anyone argue the velocity/terminal ballistics of the .38 spl was equal to or better than the .357 from a short barrel. I have seen arguments that the .38 has certain advantages --- less recoil and more controlability, less muzzle flash in the dark. Me? I keep thinking a 9mm is a good in-between round, especially with available factory loads. A little more umph than a factory .38 spl but not near as much recoil and muzzle flash as the .357. Of course, some will shoot a .357 just as well and won't mind the recoil or muzzle flash.

April 23, 2018, 12:09 AM	#6
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	I wouldn't expect any other result. More powder does translate to more power, its physics. As noted above the question is one of control. I have another problem, arthritis. The impact from firing a powerful round can exacerbate or even cause arthritis. One of the people I've met can only shoot .22s. As you should practice with the firearm you plan to carry with the rounds you intend to use if the worst happens; then using a round that will eventually degrade your ability to us a gun at all might be questionable.

April 23, 2018, 02:42 AM	#7
arquebus357 Senior Member Join Date: December 19, 2016 Location: Atlanta, Georgia area Posts: 455	I think that .38 special cartridges are cuter than .357 cartridges.

April 23, 2018, 02:34 PM	#10
JeffK Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2014 Posts: 206	I'm a weenie, I guess, when it comes to shooting my 13.8-oz MP340. I've fired lots of different rounds out of it, .38s and .357 magnums, but invariably the .357 magnum is a brutal beast, and twice now it's drawn blood from the webbing between my right thumb and index finger. It's fun once in a great while, but I wear a bicycle half-glove when I shoot magnums out of it - the rest of the time, it's .38's, and I keep .38 +P hollow-points in it at home. Whatever advantage the .357 round has, is more than cancelled out to me by the brutality of firing it, and even if I don't flinch the first time, I'm almost guaranteed to flinch the second time.

April 23, 2018, 06:48 PM	#13
Sturmpanzer Junior member Join Date: November 11, 2017 Posts: 116	Nice follow up High ValleyRanch!... I have a Ruger 3"barrel Wiley Clapp now...guess it falls in the middle somewhere...

April 25, 2018, 07:49 AM	#16
Guv Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2012 Location: South Texas Posts: 2,126	^^ Good advice^^ Now I do have an oooold Hornady loading manual with some really hot 38 spl loads! Same manual has some 357 loads I would hesitate to shoot out of my 357 Max. Different cartridges with different possible uses. I don't see a problem with that and with respecting that. Comparing top end loads of one cartridge with bottom end loads for another cartridge is knda silly. __________________ Walnut and Gloss Blue, mostly!

April 25, 2018, 10:51 AM	#21
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	The whole point of carrying whatever cartridge you feel comfortable with that will do the job at hand. If a .38 Special will do what you intend it to do, then why not carry it, no matter the gun it is loaded into. If you have a good .357 Magnum revolver, and have a good .38 Special load, +P or not, carry that combination. The person you're trying to kill can be killed just so dead. His dying words won't be, "You're a YouTube weenie." Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment. Last edited by Bob Wright; April 25, 2018 at 12:35 PM.

April 26, 2018, 05:41 AM	#22
USSR Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2017 Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY Posts: 1,442	So, Sturmpanzer, I'm waiting for your next thread about .44 Special weenies .vs .44 Magnum. Will make about as much sense. Don __________________ NRA Life Member NRA Certified Metallic Cartridge Reloading Instructor

April 26, 2018, 06:49 AM	#23
glockman55 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2009 Location: Mich Posts: 179	JeffK, shooting the .357 mag out of that light weight (MP340) is ridiculous, I had one once. but now you take the Ruger sp101 2.25" barrel the .357 is manageable..

April 26, 2018, 06:20 PM	#24
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	in my experience, actual recoil doesn't matter to me as much as the violence of the discharge, the noise and shock. recoil among those various middle of the road rounds comes up to about the same range of feeling in the same magnum, to me, but my own +p .38 rounds are far louder and rather unpleasant. given a choice i would put my .357 rounds just a bit higher velocity than the 38 +p out of the .357 with a more moderate 125 grain as opposed to the 115 load in my +p. I can shoot just as quickly and accurately with my .357 in mild 158 as I did with my +p 115. Like I said, the blast and thump in the chest of the +p are slightly higher than a low powered .357. __________________ None.