Lee neck/Redding body die sizing order

[1stmar]

The sequence I have been using for Sizing with these 2 dies has been Redding Body die and then Lee Neck Sizer die. The reason I chose this order was concern over the body die pulling down on the neck and potentially distorting/effecting the neck concentricity. I noticed in some posts, others are using a different order, Lee Neck sizer then the body die.

Curious as to the logic behind the order. My runout isn't bad but higher than I would like and others have reported.

[USSR]

When I was shooting in 1,000 yard F Class, I used a Redding Body Die and the Redding Bushing Neck Sizer to control the amount of neck tension. Like you, I always body sized first, followed up by sizing the neck.

Don

[F. Guffey]

I chose this order was concern over the body die pulling down on the neck and potentially distorting/effecting the neck concentricity.

I will assume you are not using the bushing in the top of the die you call a body die. If you choose to use the bushing in the top of the bushing die you would not find it necessary to use the Lee die to size the neck. And then if you did not like the fit between the bullet and neck you could purchases different bushings.

When I have sized cases without sizing the neck I have found it most difficult without including the shoulder portion of the case and die. So the dies I have used included the shoulder with the case body.

And then I have suggested reloaders struggle when it comes to "what happens to the case when sized", after that it ends with "it is all semantics".

Reloaders claim it is necessary to size first and then trim because sizing causes the case to get longer. If that is true how does sizing the case pull the neck back. And then there is that small area at the shoulder/neck juncture that somehow gets an exception and is never considered for a cause of donuts.

F. Guffey

[USSR]

F. Guffey,

The Redding Body Die does not have a bushing or any other means to resize the neck. It simply resizes the body and bumps the shoulder back. A separate die is then used to resize the neck.

Don

[F. Guffey]

It simply resizes and body and bumps the shoulder back.

The Redding Body Die does not have a bushing or any other means to resize the neck.

I have been sizing cases for years without sizing the neck, And then there are claims the reloader can use the bushing die to size loaded rounds and now they have a bushing die and a body die and both include the ability to size the shoulder and case body when sizing.

And now I understand how the neck gets pulled back, it gets pulled back when the shoulder is moved back during bumping. And I find it impossible to bump the shoulder back with a die that has case body support.

Thank you,

F. Guffey

[Rayinak]

I am new to this forum, and am not a very experienced reloader since I only work a few .338 WM loads. However, instead of using two die brands I use a Redding Deluxe 3-die set, which includes a full size, neck, and seater. To bump the shoulder back, I have been using a set of Redding Competition Shellholders with allow to bump the shoulder as needed from +.002 to +.010 (.002, .004, .006, .008, .010).

[F. Guffey]

I am new to this forum, and am not a very experienced reloader since I only work a few .338 WM loads. However, instead of using two die brands I use a Redding Deluxe 3-die set, which includes a full size, neck, and seater. To bump the shoulder back, I have been using a set of Redding Competition Shellholders with allow to bump the shoulder as needed from +.002 to +.010 (.002, .004, .006, .008, .010).

I am the only reloader that has a reference to 'ZERO', I have a Redding Competition shell holder, the shell holder set is the #6 set. The Competition shell holder set starts out as +.002" above zero. Zero is the minimum length/full length sized case. I am the only reloader that can not bump the shoulder back, those that claim they can- can not bump the shoulder back with the competition shell holder because all 5 shell holders in the set are .002+ full length sized.

I can shorten the length of a case between the shoulder and case head by raising the case above the deck of the shell holder, I manage that with a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head.

I would say the Redding shell holders enable the reloader to avoid full length sizing, Reloaders could have been using feeler gages to shim the die above the shell holder for many years; the advantage goes to the feeler gage because there are 10 blades between .001" and .010".

And then there is the 'beyond' or to infinity. I have one chamber that is .016" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case, that is .011" longer than a go-gage length chamber. When I size cases for the long chamber I space the full length sizer .014" off the shell holder. The .014" additional length added to the length of the case between the shoulder and case head give me the magic .002" clearance.

F. Guffey

[hounddawg]

Body die first then followed Lee collet always has worked out well for me with minimal runout

[Dave P]

"I am the only reloader that has a reference to 'ZERO',"

I am impressed.

[Rayinak]

F. Guffey, you are correct about using a set of feeler gage to accomplish the same as the Redding Competition Sheelholders, and that's what I used to do. But I used to retrieve the de-capper so that the feeler gage was exactly between the shell holder and bottom of the die, which helped with die to shellholder alignment.

However I bump the shoulder back only on fired-once or twice cases that I cycle through the rifle so that the bolt closes over the case with nearly no resistance. I do this with two different .338s, and keep the batches of fired cases separate from each other. So far so good.

[F. Guffey]

I am impressed.

Dave P., thank you, I had no intention of impressing anyone. I am not the one that labeled the Hornady/Sinclair tool a head space gage. In my opinion it was a comparator; and If I had one and used it I would have used a standard/transfer to determine the amount of error.

And I am one of the few reloaders that have cases without head space. I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case from the shoulder of the case to the case head. I am not the name dropper, I do not have head space this and head space that and I have gages that are not head space gages.

And I ask: How does a reloader bump the shoulder back? Me? Again, I am the only one that can not bump the shoulder back with a die that has case body/shoulder support and at the same time I am the only one that can shorten the case between the shoulder and case head by moving the shoulder back.

You are under no obligation to impress me, I would like to know how you can move the shoulder back with a full length sizing die that supports the case body and shoulder?

F. Guffey

[Rayinak]

I apologize to you, F. Guffey, but when I refer to bumping the shoulder back, all I am trying to say is that I am bumping the shoulder down slightly until the bolt can close over it with hardly any resistance. I do this only on fired once or twice cases. In other words, I am sizing the cases to fill the camber the case has been fired from.

If I full-size the case after the die has been locked in place as it makes firm contact with the shell holder, the fired case will be sized-down to SAAMI specifications, and that's not what I want. The said, my reloading experience is limited to the .338WM rifles I reload for.

[Unclenick]

I think bumping is supposed to set a shoulder back without narrowing the case body. Forster makes dies for that, but like Mr. Guffey, I don't think it's physically possible to do well without supporting the sides of the case body to some degree. I should probably ask Forster what their approach is.

Anyway, we are discussing setting the shoulder back in a die that also resizes the width of the case like any other resizing die. As to which order you take the steps in, try both. If a case has variation in wall thickness, you can expect that narrowing the sides will move the centerline a little, which may affect your results. The Lee die is designed to resize the neck only without first narrowing the case, which may help prevent lateral movement within it in some instances.

[1stmar]

Thanks for the replies, I had not considered lateral movement.

[Rayinak]

As I understand it, bumping the fired case's shoulder down to perhaps .002" with a full-size die, it is still being supported by the die at both the neck and body. But according to this article, bumping the shoulder down can always be done if the die is of the correct internal dimensions. I just haven't had no issues whatsoever with the Redding dies I had been using (3 Deluxe Die Sets, Series A). But I just purchased a Premium Deluxe Set (3-die set with micrometer seater) and I still have to start using them.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/techn...ing-shoulders/

Anyway, a simple search of "how reload and bump the shoulder down" on "youtube.com" will provide the answers as you can see in the video below> However, who I have the gages shown in the video, I cycle the case though my rifle's chamber until the bolt closes over the case without resistance (watch the second video. That's the way I do it).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hGvUzj7Zuk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldtbsym650k

[F. Guffey]

I apologize to you, F. Guffey, but when I refer to bumping the shoulder back, all I am trying to say is that I am bumping the shoulder down slightly until the bolt can close over it with hardly any resistance. I do this only on fired once or twice cases. In other words, I am sizing the cases to fill the camber the case has been fired from.

Thank you;

I find it impossible to bump/move the shoulder back as in shortening the case from the shoulder to the case head. I have suggested reloaders scribe the case body/shoulder juncture first before firing and or sizing. If it was possible to move the shoulder back the scribed line would move with the shoulder. And if there was any truth to the superstition that claims the firing pin drives the case forward until the case shoulder collides with the shoulder of the chamber; the scribed line would help the reloader understand what happens to the case when the trigger was pulled.

And then there were experiments, one armorer was convinced the case would separate with .060" clearance, he did not say if the head space of the case was .060" shorter than the head space of the chamber the case will suffer case head separation. He increased the length of the chamber, then chambered minimum length/full length sized cases in his 'wildcat' type chamber. The cases when fired did not suffer case head separation, I thought someone handed him the wrong rifle, careful reading of the test shows he was not using the rifle most thought he was using.

Had he scribed the case he would have know the shoulder on his fired cases did not move and the shoulder that formed when fired was a new shoulder that was 'about' .060" ahead of his scribed line.

And then there were experiments, one armorer was convinced the case would separate with .060" clearance, he did not say if the head space of the case was .060"

That was before the Internet, case head space had not been invented yet.

Again, I have chambered 8mm57 ammo in an 8mm/06 chamber. That is the equivalent to lengthening the 8mm57 chamber .227" (back to the top), if the armorer was convinced the case would suffer case head separation with .060" I should have been guaranteed a sure case of case head separation. After firing the cases I ejected 8mm57 cases that looked like
30/06 cases with just a hint of a neck. AND I increases the length of the case from the (new) shoulder to case head .227".

Had my cases been driven to the shoulder of the chamber and the case locked onto the chamber when fired the neck would not have shortened and I would have proven the case was driven forward by the firing pin. In the old days I suggested the reloader was always leaving something out or they were forgetting something or they just simply did not know.

Instead? I proved the shoulder on my cases did not move; instead my shoulder became part of the case body.

F. Guffey

[Rayinak]

F. Guffey,

No idea why you can't bump the shoulder down with a full size die. I do it all the time with a set of Redding dies, and just to make sure I check the cases for the "bump" with a micrometer (gage) that sits on the T7 press. In the past I used a set of feeler gages between the shellholder and the die, but the Redding Competition Shellholder that I use now have simplified the process for me. Also, while I have other gages, the one on the T7 is a Redding Instant Indicator, and with it I can easily tell how much I am bumping the shoulder of the fired-cases for two .338WM rifles. I measure the fired case first (from base to datum line) using the Instant Indicator, then I cycle it though my rifle and keep on sizing/checking as I replace the Redding shelholders, just like shown on this video, except that I actually measure the case in addition to cycling it though the rifle (s).

If you don't want to use an Instant Indicator, or even the Competition shellholder, that is fine too (supplement the shellholders with feeler gages). Just do what this guy does in the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldtbsym650k

One of the links I posted above has an article about not being able to bump the shoulder until the author realized that the problem was with the die he was using.