Not Happy with Samco Global Arms Inc

[Fox84]

My second purchase from Samco was a post war Walther P38. The pistol was $349 for a excellent condition piece. I noticed they charged my card $426. I waited til I received my pistol and invoice to see what was what. The gun is in great shape. They charged me $75 for insurance and shipping. I think that's somewhat of a ripoff being I live in Va . I can't wait til tomorow to call and see what they say. I think this could be my last purchase from them unless they refund about $50.

[ScottRiqui]

Do C&R pistols have to be shipped with any particular level of service (overnight, next-day, express, etc)?

[noelf2]

Most insist shipping overnight. But $30 is about the most I've paid for a pistol to be shipped overnight to me.

[Fox84]

I sure wont pay $75 again.

[tobnpr]

An 03 FFL is of no effect when it comes to shipping handguns. It's like no license at all...whether you're on the shipping, or receiving end of the gun.

Could have asked Samco if they would have shipped USPS to your local FFL, might have saved you a few bucks- but then you'd have to pay the transfer. USPS is legal, ground included, FFL to FFL.

Law does not require dealers to overnight handguns- but Fedex (the only carrier that will ship handguns other than USPS) requires overnight to keep their employees from ripping off shipments...

Depending on the distance shipped (and you can go to Fedex rate calculator), $75 may not be at all unreasonable for overnight.

[Fox84]

The shipping was UPS next day. The invoice date was 3/21 and I received it 3/28. Not exactly next day service.

[jag2]

Not sure what tobnpr is referring to, that is exactly what an 03 license is for. I am assuming the pistol is over 50 years old and the purchaser has an 03 license. If that is the case it is perfectly legal to ship directly to the purchaser. I have received several from UPS, USPS, and FedEx. It is true that some dealers (I've never purchased anything from Samco) will not honor it but that is their policy, not the law. But yes, UPS overnight is expensive, just call them and ask. I have avoided bidding on some guns because the seller would only ship UPS and the added expense just made the gun too expensive.

[kilimanjaro]

Haven't seen a nice P38 for under $550 here for two years. Add the sales tax, it's $625 out the door. I'd consider it the cost of doing business.

[Cheapshooter]

An 03 FFL is of no effect when it comes to shipping handguns. It's like no license at all..

Nonsense, other than a couple bought in person, out of state at the Knob Creek Machinegun Shoot, my dozen or so C&R handguns were ordered on line, or by phone, and shipped directly to my 03 C&R FFL listed home address. As mentioned in another post, that's what a C&R FFL is for. To be able to have C&R firearms shipped directly to you.

but Fedex (the only carrier that will ship handguns other than USPS)

More nonsense, they all came UPS. As did all my C&R rifles.

[Cheapshooter]

I just checked my records to see for sure. Unless things have changed in two years, shipping on my last C&R handgun was $17. Coincidentally,it was a Walther P1 (post WWII P38) from AIM for $319.95 + $10 hand pick fee + $17.37 shipping for a total cost to me of $347.52.
Like I said, things may have changed, that was 2/24/2011.

[Fox84]

I know people refer to post war P38's as P1's but why does mine have P38 stamped on the slide? It does have a al frame.

[Cheapshooter]

Not an expert, but I think there were some aluminum frame P38 post war pistols as well. The markings were dependant on who issued it.

From this TFL thread last year. http://thefiringline.com/forums/show....php?p=5085745

The P-38 and P1 are essentially the same gun just with different markings.

The Post-war aluminum frame P-38 was for use by West German police and for commercial sales. The P1 was nothing more then the P-38 with markings for use by the West German military who adopted it as the P1.

[tobnpr]

I apologize for the bad info- thanks for correcting me.
A Collector can receive a handgun via ground shipment- but cannot send one via ground.

Sorry for the misstatement

[chiefr]

There are some dealers who insist on next day air especially for hand guns.$75 for UPS next day is about right.

At least you did not have to wait too long. My biggest complaint about SAMCO, is it takes close to 2 weeks to get anything from them. Even before the panic.
Having said that, anything I have ever ordered from SAMCO has been of better quality than described in their advertising. I will continue to order from them.

[Hardcase]

If a handgun is shipped via UPS or FEDEX, both companies require it to be shipped overnight. I assume that's because they want it in their possession as short a time as possible. Perhaps security for overnight packages is tighter as well, I'm not sure.

USPS does not require overnight delivery on handguns shipped by a dealer, but the talk around the watercooler is that it's like pulling teeth to get a payout on an insurance claim from them.

USPS won't accept a handgun from a non-dealer for shipping and, in the eyes of the law, an 03 FFL is a non-dealer. UPS and FEDEX may, but the overnight requirement on their part still exists.

As far as the $70 goes, that seems about right for UPS. It stings that "overnight" didn't mean from the time that you placed your order.

[ronz]

I have received hand guns from at least 4 different places over the last year using my c&r all were under $30 for shipping
IIRC they have to ship by air to c&r licence holders
but if shipping wasn't listed I always asked how much it was first
did you check any specific box for how you wanted it shipped?

[madcratebuilder]

If a handgun is shipped via UPS or FEDEX, both companies require it to be shipped overnight. I assume that's because they want it in their possession as short a time as possible. Perhaps security for overnight packages is tighter as well, I'm not sure.

USPS does not require overnight delivery on handguns shipped by a dealer, but the talk around the watercooler is that it's like pulling teeth to get a payout on an insurance claim from them.

USPS won't accept a handgun from a non-dealer for shipping and, in the eyes of the law, an 03 FFL is a non-dealer. UPS and FEDEX may, but the overnight requirement on their part still exists.

As far as the $70 goes, that seems about right for UPS. It stings that "overnight" didn't mean from the time that you placed your order.

Good post with the facts.

It's the carriers (UPS/FEDEX) that demand overnight on hand guns and it's because of theft problems in the past.

Cheapest way to ship a handgun is USPS but you need a 01FFL and it's a long process to deal with a insurance claim.

Your 03 C&R just allows you to receive a 50+ year old hand gun directly from the carrier, no back ground check. Nothing to do with shipping costs.

[SteveBonning]

There are 2 issues here; first, the invoice date and shipping date are 2 different things, so that cannot be used to reflect whether or not overnight shipping was used. Invoice date was when you were charged for the puchase; shipping date is self-explanatory. Samco is known (at least to me) to take a while to ship.

Charges for online purchases are generally Shipping and HANDLING, or costs associated with pulling the item from stock, packaging, etc. It's not just the actual costs of shipping, as there are always some costs associated with getting it packed and shipped.

I've done business with Samco; I always verify total costs over the phone before I confirm the sale. Aside from the time to get the guns/ammo to my door, I have no complaints.

[Cheapshooter]

The overnight requiremsnt must be a recent thing. In the last year or so. I don't remember overnight shipping, or a charge over $15-$20 for any C&R purchase. Long gun or handgun. It has been a couple years since my last purchase though.

[dogtown tom]

Fox84 ... They charged me $75 for insurance and shipping. I think that's somewhat of a ripoff....

Not a ripoff, that's probably the exact cost of Next Day/Overnight service.

ScottRiqui Do C&R pistols have to be shipped with any particular level of service (overnight, next-day, express, etc)?

Nothing in Federal law requires it, but both UPS & FedEx policies do. C&R holders may not mail or receive by mail any firearm other than a rifle or shotgun.

tobnpr .......Law does not require dealers to overnight handguns- but Fedex (the only carrier that will ship handguns other than USPS)

UPS clearly DOES ship handguns, says so on their website.

Fox84 The shipping was UPS next day. The invoice date was 3/21 and I received it 3/28. Not exactly next day service.

I can print out a UPS label tonight and not hand the box to UPS until Wednesday. It would arrive to you on Thursday. The delay was not the fault of UPS.

tobnpr I apologize for the bad info- thanks for correcting me.
A Collector can receive a handgun via ground shipment- but cannot send one via ground.

Still wrong
The requirement for handguns to go UPS Next Day or FedEx Overnight is the policy of those companies, not Federal law. Violate those policies and you are not covered for loss, damage or theft. So, ANY firearm can LEGALLY be shipped "Ground", but shipping a handgun via Ground violates the UPS/FedEx terms of service.

Cheapshooter The overnight requiremsnt must be a recent thing.

It's been a requirement for at least six years.

[jag2]

C&R holders may not mail or receive by mail any firearm other than a rifle or shotgun.
Huh? Isn't USPS considered mail? Sure looks like the same guy to me. I think the majority of my C&R pistol have come via USPS.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by jag2

Isn't USPS considered mail? Sure looks like the same guy to me. I think the majority of my C&R pistol have come via USPS.

Perhaps the sender isn't familiar with U.S. Postal regulations, namely the Domestic Mail Manual. Some FFLs may not be familiar with the regulations because they are outside the purview of the BATFE and therefore off the proverbial radar.

The relevant regs are here:

http://pe.usps.gov/text/dmm300/601.htm#12_0

The relevant sections:

Originally Posted by dmm

12.1.2 Handguns
Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affidavit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following:

a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1h.
b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6.
c. <Omitted - concerns airguns>
d. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
e. Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.
12.1.3 Authorized Persons
Subject to 12.1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, a licensed importer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district, only when addressed to a person in one of the following categories for use in the person's official duties: <list of officials omitted>
<12.1.4 omitted>
12.1.5 Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers
Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms, licensed dealers of firearms, and licensed importers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

<emphasis mine>

Note that Sections 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 conspicuously do not include licensed collectors, i.e. C&R licensees. IOW most C&R firearms may not be mailed to or from a licensed collector unless they are (a) antiques or (b) "certified by the curator of a... museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest". The latter category does not generally include firearms that became C&R-eligible by default, due to their age, military provenance, and/or inclusion within a "catch-all" category in the BATFE C&R book.

FWIW the DMM defines an "antique" using a definition similar to other firearms laws, i.e. guns made before 1/1/1899, black powder muzzleloaders, and certain replicas. The phrase "firearms capable of being concealed on the person" is defined to include NFA SBRs and SBSs.

[jag2]

All I can tell you is the "sender" is a reasonably large seller that sends out a couple of hundred guns a month (admittedly not all are C&R) and they are always in one of those special one price USPS boxes. Its not like he could fly under the radar so I'm guessing his local post office knows whats going on.

[Cheapshooter]

Quote: Cheapshooter The overnight requiremsnt must be a recent thing.

It's been a requirement for at least six years.

So then has the cost of overnight gone up nearly three fold then?

I just checked my records to see for sure. Unless things have changed in two years, shipping on my last C&R handgun was $17. Like I said, things may have changed, that was 2/24/2011.

[dogtown tom]

jag2

Huh? Isn't USPS considered mail?

Yes....anytime you ship via USPS you MAIL the package.
When using a common carrier (UPS/FedEx) you SHIP the package.

IE......you cannot MAIL via UPS or FedEx.

Cheapshooter ....So then has the cost of overnight gone up nearly three fold then?

It has increased in the last six years, but so has the price of fuel. Not close to "three fold".
Remember, UPS/FedEx don't do "Flat Rate' like USPS, their rates are dependent on weight and distance. Some shippers get discounted rates from UPS/FedEx due to the volume of packages. This is why some can ship Overnight or Next Day for less than others.

If you think you are being ripped off just use the shipping calculator at UPS or FedExes website.....just remember to include insurance and adult signature.