Newbie question about reloading for long range shooting

[nvcnvc]

My first post here, so I'd appreciate any input on this.

I just started to shoot long range (600-1000 yes) with a Savage 10 fcp 308 heavy barrel in 1:10 twist. So far I have been using FGMM factory rounds with 175 gr SMKs. I have had good luck with them (some lots group better than others). Recently i was able to get a great deal on Nosler Custom Competition bullets (175 gns) and I would like to start reloading.

I have Varget powder at hand and CCI primers. My question is this:

The Hodgdon online manual says to start at 42 gn with 45gn been max-that is for a generic 175 gn jacketed bullet.
The Nosler manual says to start at 39.5 gr with 43.5 gn at max.
I also looked at the Sierra manual using 175 gn SMks and it shows 36.9 gn to start and 41.5 gns max. All of the above are with Varget powder.

To make things worse, I have seen online recipes (here and in the Handloads.com site) that use 46 gn of Varget with 175 gn bullets.

Needless to say all of this is a bit confusing, so I thought I'd ask here for some advice.

Thank you for your time...

[nhyrum]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Start low and work up till you see pressure. I shot 6.5 so it's a little different, but I see guys shooting 3 grains over book max. Just be very vigulent about looking for pressure signs. Cratered primers, soot around the cup, etc. And stop. I'd load 1 round of each, going up in .2 grain increments until you reach either the Hodgdon max, or whatever Max you decide. Then just shoot till you see pressure, then load 5 of each to the max of your particular rifle to find the load your rifle likes.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[JeepHammer]

Are you aiming to work up your own ballistic tables?
The BC of the bullets you are using will shoot on published ballistics tables (more or less)
*IF* you pay attention to muzzle velocity.

When using optics with graduated reticle or built in drop compensators,
Muzzle velocity is a factor.

One of the biggest things you can easily check for is bullet weight consistancy,
And bullet diameter consistancy.
Weighing is stright forward, while sizing can take a bit of getting used to.

I start with a ring sized to just let a properly sized bullet drop through,
The second ring lower down is slightly undersize to catch properly sized bullets, but let slightly undersize bullets to drop through.

The bullets caught in the middle are correctly sized, and round.
Oval bullets get found that way also.

Not that you can't shoot the culled bullets, just not ideal for precise long range shooting.
I load them for 'Blasting' ammo...

Getting a case LENGTH gauge, and learning to use it,
Just bumping the brass back into a shape that will chamber, but not be sloppy, is a big deal.

Use the case length gauge and caliper, measure how far the brass sticks up out of the gauge,
Bump brass back about 0.002" (checking with case length gauge & caliper),
And check to see the brass fits YOUR chamber or not.
When it fits correctly, you have found the setting for the brass sizing die.

I find primer pocket consistancy, along with flash hole work, consistant size and champerfing helps tighten up muzzle velocity strings (fastest/slowest).
A consistant muzzle velocity, no matter your load or what your muzzle velocity is, will give you superior accuracy down range.

[gwpercle]

Go with the Nosler load data. It's always a good idea to use the bullet manufacturer's data if you can . It was developed for that exact bullet and bullet profiles can make a difference in charge weights.
Start with the starting loads and slowly work up , you may find the best accuracy somewhere between start and max. A lot of times the most accurate loads are just below max. But the only way to know is to try them.
Your rifle's chamber and bore may differ from Nosler's so pressure signs may show up before you hit the max load...that's what you are looking for, an accurate safe load.
In reloading for long range shooting , consistency in every aspect is the key to accuracy....everything needs to be the same.
Gary

[mikld]

Nosler bullets? Use Nosler data.

Reloading manuals will differ in the data shown, because they are just results of the testing they did, not hard and fast formula. Different test equipment, different components (manufacturing lots will differ lot to lot), different personnel equals different results...

[nvcnvc]

Thank you all. I will use Nosler data, start low and go from there.

JH, are the sizing rings available or did you make them yourself?

Thanks again..

[T. O'Heir]

The Hodgdon data is for a Sierra 175 grain HPBT jacketed bullet. However, you load for the bullet weight. Not who made it or its construction.
That data or the 180 grain data will do for a 178 grain A-Max as well. Two grains won't matter.
Anyway, every manual will be a bit different. Manuals reflect averages of the data collected using the specific powder lots, bullets and rifle or universal receiver, barrel lengths, rifling twists(Hodgdon's and Noslers is 1 in 12) and climatic conditions(humidity, etc. Tests aren't done outside though.) on the day of the test only. Your loads will not have exactly the same velocities. That doesn't matter either. Accuracy is more important.
You'll also note that Hodgdon shows their Varget 45.0 Max load as being compressed, but Nosler doesn't show their 43.5 grain Max as being compressed. Highly unlikely it is not compressed. Compressed loads are nothing to worry about but they tend to start being compressed very close to the start load.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by T. O'Heir

However, you load for the bullet weight. Not who made it or its construction.

50 years ago, yes, but not any more. See Allan Jones's article on this subject.


Nvcnvc.

Note that the Nosler, Sierra, and Hodgdon data use different primers and brass. 308 Win has a brass capacity variation by brand second only to 300 Win mag. This, alone, can account for a couple of grains of difference. Using different primers in LRP's usually don't change powder charge more than a couple of percent, but it's theoretically possible for it to be more.

You need to work your load up with your components. If you know the capacity of the case you are using and the one used to create the load data, reduce your powder charge by 1 grain for every 1.7 grains less capacity your case has, and vice versa, and you usually get pretty close.

Learn to read pressure signs.


Nhyrum,

Please read this. I put the warning in your last post in this thread for you.

[Woolecox]

All sound advice given above.

For what it is worth, I have had two custom built heavy barrel 308’s. Sold the first to fund the second, which has a proof research barrel.

Both rifles started to loose accuracy when increasing the charge of Varget over 44.0 grains with all bullets. Some where sticking cases and blowing primers. I am getting best result out of my rifle with 44.0 Varget behind a 178 ELDX or 175 SMK’s, Lapua brass, and Fed GM205M primers. Both bullets clock about 2700 fps.

Invest in some Lapua brass. 200 rounds will probably last most of us a lifetime. Those spent Gold Medal cases are great too. Match Kings can be bought in bulk for pretty cheap. I have the ELDX on backorder everywhere.

308 Winchester
Stiller TAC-30AW action and bottom metal
Proof Research Sendero barrel
McMillan Tactical Hunter Stock
Jewel Trigger.

[JeepHammer]

That's a sexy rifle!
No AR/AK lead slinger is going to invoke a response like that from me!
Gail McMillan can make a GREAT stock, doesn't even need a steel floor plate to stabilize the action...

Damn, now I'm feeling a strong urge to order an action, stock, barrel...
See what you got started!

[Woolecox]

That's a sexy rifle!
No AR/AK lead slinger is going to invoke a response like that from me!
Gail McMillan can make a GREAT stock, doesn't even need a steel floor plate to stabilize the action...

Damn, now I'm feeling a strong urge to order an action, stock, barrel...
See what you got started!

Thank you. It’s my last rifle, I promise.

[F. Guffey]

The Hodgdon online manual says to start at 42 gn with 45gn been max-that is for a generic 175 gn jacketed bullet.
The Nosler manual says to start at 39.5 gr with 43.5 gn at max.

Jacketed bullet? And then there are those that assume all bullets are the same; they are not; some bullets take off down the barrel and hardly notice the rifling. And then there are other bullets that have a difficult time getting past the rifling. Some of those bullets have thicker jackets and other have no jacket because they are solid.

Again, I am the fan of the jump start, I want my bullets to have that 'running start'; when it comes to making mistakes I want all the forgiveness I can get.

And then the big 'AND'; and I do not recommend a reloader jump into reloading in a dead run.

F. Guffey

[kraigwy]

Velocity does not mean accuracy. In some cases, its a deterrent.

I believe the 308 fits in that category.

I've been shooting 308s in competition for 40 years. I found, the faster I through them the worse the accuracy.

They found, in the days of 300 meter ISU shooting 2200 fps was optimum.

Of course that wont work in gas guns M14s and M1A service rifles. The Army determined 2550 fps (at 78 feet) worked best, when having to work the action and getting the accuracy required.

Hard to argue with the AMU.

When I got my DR badge I went to bolt guns shooting the 308. I tried more velocity every now and then but always go back to loads between 2500-2600 fps.

To 600 years I use 168s, either SMKs or A-Max. Past that I use the 175 SMK.

I will not load any powder in my 308s but 41.5 gr of 4895 or 42 gr of 4060. I tried other powders but always come back.

My go to load for precision long range in my Model 70 bolt guns is 41.5 of 4895 and 175 SMKs in Hornady Brass, using Win LR primers.

Its safe in about any gun, good for 1400+ yards. Works in my M1A and Bolt guns.

[MarkCO]

Lots of good advice posted so far.

There are a lot of bullets (and other components) and there is such a thing as tolerance stacking. The manuals are derived based on testing with a specific batch of components, usually in a test barrel or a match chamber. What this really means is that the book max is, in most circumstances, not the max for another set of components. But, like Kraig stated, velocity is not king...consistency is king. If you offered me a 3000 fps load with a 50 SD or a 2500 fps load with a 10 SD, easy choice.

There are some amazing .30 caliber bullets these days. 155 Palmas were all some guys would shoot, but most liked the heavier stuff, 168s or 175s, but those were typical cup and core bullets. Now with Hybrids, split core and some other engineered bullets coming online, the performance can get right into what was once considered almost impossible. Personally, I stick with the open tip match or tipped match bullets (past 600 yards). I have been shocked at how well the 140 Nosler Custom Competition bullets have done in my .308, and the velocity can get close to 3000 fps, but I only use those in action type matches where there is no time for precise wind and elevation calls on the timer. If it is one bullet and one target with plenty of time, I feel more comfortable with a 168 or 175 loping out at about 2550.