violence in mcdonalds - Page 2

Webleymkv · April 22, 2011, 03:41 PM

No question about it, I'd have drawn my gun. A beating of that severity, particularly with the disparity of force (two against one) is quite capable of causing permanent disability or death (as evidenced by the girl having a seizure).

I am legally justified, in my state, in bringing deadly force to bear in defense of another and even if I wasn't, I couldn't live with myself if I just stood there and let someone get beaten to death without doing anything. At best, the two attackers would have gotten a verbal warning and if that did not stop them, either bullets or a pistol whip would have followed.

As to trying to detain the attackers, I would let them go if they chose to. I'm not a cop and "catching the bad guys" is not my job. My only concern in such a situation would have been stopping the attack.

I sincerely hope that the girl who was beaten is OK and I also sincerely hope that the two attackers get thrown into some deep, dark hole of a prison with a bunch of other animals just like them for a very, very long time.

napg19 · April 22, 2011, 03:44 PM

Funny, I made a comment once and had the p****d off word blanked out by the staff. But put a video on with full M F, S**t D**M, I guess this is ok for embassators to the world. Think this will really hurt G. Sorres's feelings?

guitars and guns · April 22, 2011, 03:49 PM

Quote:

A few square punches to the face might have settled these broads down.

99% of the time, men are stronger than women. (maybe a few rare cases such as female body builders. yuk)

I do not see this situation as one that would need deadly force. I would have intervened and attempted to ward the savages off of their victim but if they came at me, I would deliver a blow to the first one that she would not get up from and ask the second one if she still wanted to try.

I would only draw if they pulled out a knife or something and came at me. Otherwise, I don't think it would be any problem taking these two out by hand.

ClayInTx · April 22, 2011, 04:26 PM

The video showed us Side One.

That doesn't make what happened to be right, but...

I wonder about Side Two.

irish52084 · April 22, 2011, 04:32 PM

This behavior is deplorable. I'm with just about everyone here that I would have intervened. I'm a large guy and well trained when it comes to physical encounters and I wouldn't have hesitated to level those 2 women. I can tell you now, those two have never been tossed around like I could have and they would not have fled the scene.

I understand letting 2 people settle a dispute physically, but when it becomes a 2 on 1 mauling you have to step in. This is how those 2 women should have been treated:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rkQwyfCn6A

guitars and guns · April 22, 2011, 04:35 PM

Just found this

http://smu-humaneye.blogspot.com/201...der-woman.html

It doesn't change the severity or stupidity of the situation but apparently it was a male.

kinggabby · April 22, 2011, 04:44 PM

I think it is sad that someone just stood there video taping it instead of helping . I mean if that girl was to die it would be his fault to cause he did not help either. He just got some great footage. Forgive me but girls or no girls someone should have knocked those girls out.

guitars and guns · April 22, 2011, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Forgive me but girls or no girls someone should have knocked those girls out.

quoted for truth

WhiskeyTango · April 22, 2011, 04:51 PM

I too was appauled watching this video. It's very easy to talk big in these what if senarios, the old "if I was there I would have..." line, but I belive everyone who has posted in this instance. I would not hesitate to knock both of those girls on their *ss, and if that didn't work I most deffinately would have held them at gun point untill the law got there. There is no question this poor girls life was in danger, and though the girls had no weapons, I think drawing on them and detaining them would be justified. I also agree that the boy that told the girls to get out of there before the law got there should be punished. It's sad that the old lady, god bless her, had the biggest set of stones in this situation.

guitars and guns · April 22, 2011, 04:59 PM

Yes, props to the older lady who stepped up. She had bigger balls than all the "men" present during this travesty.

FireForged · April 22, 2011, 05:04 PM

In my laymans uneducated opinion, I think It would be difficult to win a lawsuit again McD on the grounds that the employees didnt put themselves in harms way. Purhaps if they made no attempt to call authorities or ems, that may be different. I have not seen the video or read the complete article so I cant really comment on anything specific.

ClayInTx · April 22, 2011, 05:05 PM

Quote from my previous post:

Quote:

The video showed us Side One.

That doesn't make what happened to be right, but...

I wonder about Side Two.

Check out the link posted, above, by guitars and guns.

Now that we’ve seen Side One and got the gritty on Side Two, I wonder if there isn’t a Side Three from back in the Ladies Restroom.

WhiskeyTango · April 22, 2011, 05:16 PM

Quote:

As to trying to detain the attackers, I would let them go if they chose to. I'm not a cop and "catching the bad guys" is not my job. My only concern in such a situation would have been stopping the attack.

As soon as you step in to help it becomes your job, a citizens arrest is 100% legal, and I for one would not be able to sleep knowing I let these two go, possibly never to be caught and charged. Letting them go would just teach them that this kind of animal behavior is ok, and that they got away with it once, they could do it again. I wear a 550 paracord bracelet everywhere I go, this would have been the perfect use for it, knocking these to out cold and tying their hands behind their backs until law enforcement arrived.

Webleymkv · April 22, 2011, 05:24 PM

Quote:

I do not see this situation as one that would need deadly force. I would have intervened and attempted to ward the savages off of their victim but if they came at me, I would deliver a blow to the first one that she would not get up from and ask the second one if she still wanted to try.

I would only draw if they pulled out a knife or something and came at me. Otherwise, I don't think it would be any problem taking these two out by hand.

I respectfully disagree. The fact that the two women (and I use that term very loosely here) kept coming back demonstrates to be that this wasn't about proving a point or "teaching a lesson" but was an active attempt to kill, or at very least seriously injure the woman who was beaten. Because of this, I think the condition of "fear of death or grave bodily injury" would be fairly easily met and would, in my state at least, justify lethal force.

Also, a "fair fight" is something of sports and heroic fiction. Just because the two "women" in the video did not have any visible weapons, that does not mean that none were present. Getting a stabbed or shot in the middle of a fistfight is a very poor way to learn that someone else has a weapon. I will take no chances with two-legged animals and these two certainly meet that description.

As I said before, I'd shout a very loud verbal warning before shooting or pistol-whipping, but I'm not getting involved before I've got a weapon in my hand.

publius · April 22, 2011, 05:28 PM

I would call 911 then proceed with providing a defence. Would have dealt with them just as I would any other dangerous animals. I would have deployed pepper spray if I had it. If not, a few swings of the closest chair would probibly suffice. Hand to hand would be the next option, but I wouldn't want to be near these people, much less touch them. If they presented any form of weapon or if the male, who seemed sympathetic to their "cause" got involved I may draw my weapon. Do anything to get the victim to my car and the hospital asap.

C Philip · April 22, 2011, 05:38 PM

Would not have felt the need to draw my gun, unless the two attackers produced a weapon, but a solid punch to the face should calm them down a bit. A good reason to also carry something like pepper spray along with your handgun. I hope they go to jail for a long time.

guitars and guns · April 22, 2011, 05:42 PM

Quote:

I respectfully disagree. The fact that the two women (and I use that term very loosely here) kept coming back demonstrates to be that this wasn't about proving a point or "teaching a lesson" but was an active attempt to kill, or at very least seriously injure the woman who was beaten. Because of this, I think the condition of "fear of death or grave bodily injury" would be fairly easily met and would, in my state at least, justify lethal force.

Also, a "fair fight" is something of sports and heroic fiction. Just because the two "women" in the video did not have any visible weapons, that does not mean that none were present. Getting a stabbed or shot in the middle of a fistfight is a very poor way to learn that someone else has a weapon. I will take no chances with two-legged animals and these two certainly meet that description.

As I said before, I'd shout a very loud verbal warning before shooting or pistol-whipping, but I'm not getting involved before I've got a weapon in my hand.

You make a very valid point and something to consider BUT.....

what if you brandished your weapon, gave verbal warning and they still came at you bearing no weapons at all? do you shoot them?

I guess it all depends widely on the laws of the state you are in.

I am going to class to get my CCW on the 30th and should learn the laws of TX there (I plan on asking LOTS of questions and studying on my own as well), but situations like this intrigue me. that's why I suggested hand to hand at first and only drawing (and maybe using) a firearm only if completely necessary to avoid legal repercussions.

Casimer · April 22, 2011, 05:51 PM

Quote:

It doesn't change the severity or stupidity of the situation but apparently it was a male.

The police are still reporting the victim as female. The claim that she is a he comes from the guy who shot the video, who's no longer commenting.

Glenn Dee · April 22, 2011, 06:10 PM

Absent the use of deadly force against the victim I probably wouldnt have gone to the gun. More likely I would have placed my body over the victim and taken the beating in order to protect her. It may have frustrated the perpetrators enough to leave... And I've taken a few beatings in my time... I'm not as fragile as the female victim.

Glenn

Wildalaska · April 22, 2011, 06:14 PM

WhiskeyTango · April 22, 2011, 06:27 PM

Just found this while looking to see if there was a law in Colorado requiring someone to step in and help having been a witness to a crime such as this. I was unable to find anything to that effect, but, found this interesting...

It is illegal to assist a fugitive in any way. Accessory to Crime, CRS 18-8-105 Colorado Law states: "A person is an accessory to a crime if, with intent to hinder, delay or PREVENT the discovery, detection, apprehension, prosecution, conviction or punishment of another for the commission of a crime, he renders assistance to such person." This crime can be up to a Class 4 FELONY, punishable by up to 8 years in prison and/or a fine up to $500,000.00!
Taken from:
http://www.springsgov.com/Page.aspx?NavID=3438

So the dip***t that told the girls to get out of there before the cops got there was preventing the discovery of these two worthless individuals, therefor committing a crime himself. I would hope that MD has the same kind of law and that this punk will be prosecuted.

C Philip · April 22, 2011, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildalaska

So what does this thread do other than give folks a chance to chest pound

Gives the opportunity to discuss what levels of force may have been appropriate and the legal implications thereof.

WhiskeyTango · April 22, 2011, 06:35 PM

Well actually Alaska, most of us were discussing whether or not it would have been appropriate to produce a gun in defense of the victim, and whether state laws would have allowed it, or the use of deadly force. The chest pounding going on is in fact answering the original question of what rights a bystander has if they decided to intervene, and what we would have done had we been there.

cracked91 · April 22, 2011, 06:35 PM

message deleted

cracked91 · April 22, 2011, 07:13 PM

Laptop messed up last post.

While yesterday, had I watched the scene unfold, I firmly believed I would have just walked in swinging, If I watched it unfold tomorrow, I hope I will think just a little bit more. I doubt these women are strangers to the full strength blow from a larger man, and the one woman probably outweighed me. During my unarmed combat classes it quickly became apparent that 2 vs 1 was a major gamble. Even with it was a man vs women or a very large individual vs smaller ones. Fighting two people at the same time takes a very high level of skill. I have personally found the only way I have been able to come out of this situation on top is by completely incapacitating the weaker of the two opponents as fast as I can (usually if it took me longer than 20 seconds, I was going to lose) so that I can turn my attention and whats left of my strength to the stronger one.

If they decide to fight instead of run when first faced with the prospect of fighting a man, you may be trouble. Women are generally weaker than men, and a full strength blow might not turn your head too much. But this is still a street fight, and a lethal one at this point. That means there is a high probability that when faced with an opponent that has an extreme physical advantage, the women will do things such as scratch (face, eyes, ears - very, very painful) aim attacks at the genital area (your achilles heel), and probably the worst - bite. Even a smaller woman is going to have enough jaw strength to take a large chunk out of you. The killer about this is that a bite can easily transfer things like HIV/AIDS and other STDS (which these women undoubtedly had).

Initially, I think a knock or two to the head would be sufficient, if it did not end there, I believe an armed response would be appropriate. I can not see a scenario where they would continue to kick the girl in the head when they became aware there was a gun pointed at them, but if they did I feel I would be justified in using lethal force. A punch when standing up is one thing, a kick to the head when on the ground is a different arena.

If all I had was a knife (which I often do, due to the fact that my job does not allow for concealed carry), there would be more than fair warning, then lethal force would be applied with a different platform.

April 22, 2011, 04:51 PM	#34
WhiskeyTango Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2011 Location: Northglenn, CO Posts: 107	I too was appauled watching this video. It's very easy to talk big in these what if senarios, the old "if I was there I would have..." line, but I belive everyone who has posted in this instance. I would not hesitate to knock both of those girls on their ss, and if that didn't work I most deffinately would have held them at gun point untill the law got there. There is no question this poor girls life was in danger, and though the girls had no weapons, I think drawing on them and detaining them would be justified. I also agree that the boy that told the girls to get out of there before the law got there should be punished. It's sad that the old lady, god bless her, had the biggest set of stones in this situation. __________________ "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny"* -Thomas Jefferson Member-RMGO, Member-NRA, NRA Certified RSO

April 22, 2011, 05:04 PM	#36
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	In my laymans uneducated opinion, I think It would be difficult to win a lawsuit again McD on the grounds that the employees didnt put themselves in harms way. Purhaps if they made no attempt to call authorities or ems, that may be different. I have not seen the video or read the complete article so I cant really comment on anything specific. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

April 22, 2011, 05:28 PM	#40
publius Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2005 Location: Mississippi/Texas Posts: 2,505	I would call 911 then proceed with providing a defence. Would have dealt with them just as I would any other dangerous animals. I would have deployed pepper spray if I had it. If not, a few swings of the closest chair would probibly suffice. Hand to hand would be the next option, but I wouldn't want to be near these people, much less touch them. If they presented any form of weapon or if the male, who seemed sympathetic to their "cause" got involved I may draw my weapon. Do anything to get the victim to my car and the hospital asap. __________________ "Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." Mark Twain

April 22, 2011, 06:14 PM	#45
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	So what does this thread do other than give folks a chance to chest pound WildcuriousAlaska ™©2002-2011

April 22, 2011, 06:27 PM	#46
WhiskeyTango Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2011 Location: Northglenn, CO Posts: 107	Just found this while looking to see if there was a law in Colorado requiring someone to step in and help having been a witness to a crime such as this. I was unable to find anything to that effect, but, found this interesting... It is illegal to assist a fugitive in any way. Accessory to Crime, CRS 18-8-105 Colorado Law states: "A person is an accessory to a crime if, with intent to hinder, delay or PREVENT the discovery, detection, apprehension, prosecution, conviction or punishment of another for the commission of a crime, he renders assistance to such person." This crime can be up to a Class 4 FELONY, punishable by up to 8 years in prison and/or a fine up to $500,000.00! Taken from: http://www.springsgov.com/Page.aspx?NavID=3438 So the dip**t that told the girls to get out of there before the cops got there was preventing the discovery of these two worthless individuals, therefor committing a crime himself. I would hope that MD has the same kind of law and that this punk will be prosecuted. __________________ "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny"* -Thomas Jefferson Member-RMGO, Member-NRA, NRA Certified RSO

April 22, 2011, 03:41 PM	#26
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	No question about it, I'd have drawn my gun. A beating of that severity, particularly with the disparity of force (two against one) is quite capable of causing permanent disability or death (as evidenced by the girl having a seizure). I am legally justified, in my state, in bringing deadly force to bear in defense of another and even if I wasn't, I couldn't live with myself if I just stood there and let someone get beaten to death without doing anything. At best, the two attackers would have gotten a verbal warning and if that did not stop them, either bullets or a pistol whip would have followed. As to trying to detain the attackers, I would let them go if they chose to. I'm not a cop and "catching the bad guys" is not my job. My only concern in such a situation would have been stopping the attack. I sincerely hope that the girl who was beaten is OK and I also sincerely hope that the two attackers get thrown into some deep, dark hole of a prison with a bunch of other animals just like them for a very, very long time.

April 22, 2011, 03:44 PM	#27
napg19 Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2009 Location: Arkansas Posts: 431	Funny, I made a comment once and had the p**d off word blanked out by the staff. But put a video on with full M F, St D**M, I guess this is ok for embassators to the world. Think this will really hurt G. Sorres's feelings?

April 22, 2011, 04:26 PM	#29
ClayInTx Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 1,066	The video showed us Side One. That doesn't make what happened to be right, but... I wonder about Side Two.

April 22, 2011, 04:32 PM	#30
irish52084 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2011 Location: Washington, the state, not that "other" one. Posts: 514	This behavior is deplorable. I'm with just about everyone here that I would have intervened. I'm a large guy and well trained when it comes to physical encounters and I wouldn't have hesitated to level those 2 women. I can tell you now, those two have never been tossed around like I could have and they would not have fled the scene. I understand letting 2 people settle a dispute physically, but when it becomes a 2 on 1 mauling you have to step in. This is how those 2 women should have been treated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rkQwyfCn6A

April 22, 2011, 04:35 PM	#31
guitars and guns Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2011 Location: TX is there anywhere else? Posts: 235	Just found this http://smu-humaneye.blogspot.com/201...der-woman.html It doesn't change the severity or stupidity of the situation but apparently it was a male.

April 22, 2011, 04:44 PM	#32
kinggabby Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2011 Location: OKC Posts: 502	I think it is sad that someone just stood there video taping it instead of helping . I mean if that girl was to die it would be his fault to cause he did not help either. He just got some great footage. Forgive me but girls or no girls someone should have knocked those girls out.

April 22, 2011, 04:59 PM	#35
guitars and guns Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2011 Location: TX is there anywhere else? Posts: 235	Yes, props to the older lady who stepped up. She had bigger balls than all the "men" present during this travesty.

April 22, 2011, 05:38 PM	#41
C Philip Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: USA Posts: 784	Would not have felt the need to draw my gun, unless the two attackers produced a weapon, but a solid punch to the face should calm them down a bit. A good reason to also carry something like pepper spray along with your handgun. I hope they go to jail for a long time.

April 22, 2011, 06:10 PM	#44
Glenn Dee Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,560	Absent the use of deadly force against the victim I probably wouldnt have gone to the gun. More likely I would have placed my body over the victim and taken the beating in order to protect her. It may have frustrated the perpetrators enough to leave... And I've taken a few beatings in my time... I'm not as fragile as the female victim. Glenn

April 22, 2011, 06:35 PM	#48
WhiskeyTango Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2011 Location: Northglenn, CO Posts: 107	Well actually Alaska, most of us were discussing whether or not it would have been appropriate to produce a gun in defense of the victim, and whether state laws would have allowed it, or the use of deadly force. The chest pounding going on is in fact answering the original question of what rights a bystander has if they decided to intervene, and what we would have done had we been there. __________________ "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny" -Thomas Jefferson Member-RMGO, Member-NRA, NRA Certified RSO

April 22, 2011, 06:35 PM	#49
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	message deleted

April 22, 2011, 07:13 PM	#50
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	Don't underestimate women. . . Laptop messed up last post. While yesterday, had I watched the scene unfold, I firmly believed I would have just walked in swinging, If I watched it unfold tomorrow, I hope I will think just a little bit more. I doubt these women are strangers to the full strength blow from a larger man, and the one woman probably outweighed me. During my unarmed combat classes it quickly became apparent that 2 vs 1 was a major gamble. Even with it was a man vs women or a very large individual vs smaller ones. Fighting two people at the same time takes a very high level of skill. I have personally found the only way I have been able to come out of this situation on top is by completely incapacitating the weaker of the two opponents as fast as I can (usually if it took me longer than 20 seconds, I was going to lose) so that I can turn my attention and whats left of my strength to the stronger one. If they decide to fight instead of run when first faced with the prospect of fighting a man, you may be trouble. Women are generally weaker than men, and a full strength blow might not turn your head too much. But this is still a street fight, and a lethal one at this point. That means there is a high probability that when faced with an opponent that has an extreme physical advantage, the women will do things such as scratch (face, eyes, ears - very, very painful) aim attacks at the genital area (your achilles heel), and probably the worst - bite. Even a smaller woman is going to have enough jaw strength to take a large chunk out of you. The killer about this is that a bite can easily transfer things like HIV/AIDS and other STDS (which these women undoubtedly had). Initially, I think a knock or two to the head would be sufficient, if it did not end there, I believe an armed response would be appropriate. I can not see a scenario where they would continue to kick the girl in the head when they became aware there was a gun pointed at them, but if they did I feel I would be justified in using lethal force. A punch when standing up is one thing, a kick to the head when on the ground is a different arena. If all I had was a knife (which I often do, due to the fact that my job does not allow for concealed carry), there would be more than fair warning, then lethal force would be applied with a different platform.