Please help before I end up blowing up myself or my gun!

[mwurdeman07]

Hi guys so I have recently acquired some reloading equipment. The Lee turret press along with pro auto disk powder measure and the dies with the factory crimp. I set up the turret according to instructions and even referenced a few knowledgeable youtube videos.

Here is my setup:

Smith and Wesson m&p9
-Brass found on the ground at my range which has been tumbled in media.
-Hodgdon h-6 powder (4.7gr per load)
-9mm 124 gr plated bullets ( http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/produ...&categoryId=12) to be exact
-Federal small pistol primers
-and finally my OAL 1.125

I just chronoed my first shot at 4500 fps! Needles to say I did not fire any more of that load. The chrono was correct as I tested factory loaded ammo at 1100fps. Also my reloads do not eject.

I think it may be my OAL that is the issue, what do you guys think? Please help, I really dont want to blow up my gun or myself!

[ljnowell]

You DID NOT get 4500fps. That was a faulty reading. period.

[mwurdeman07]

I had shot 2 factory, then 1 reload, I just went out to shoot again, again I ran 2 factory and then one of my reloads and it read 4500 ish again. What would you guys suggest for a load with my current setup. How much powder, what oal? Also why is it not ejecting the spent casing?

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


Hodgdon max load for 115 gr HS-6, is 7 gr, the threshold of primer pierce for me in a Kel-Tec P11 wast 10.8 gr.
My primer pierced and case bulged with magnum primer at 11.5 gr.

Hodgdon max load for 125 gr HS-6 is 6.8 gr

Your load of 124 gr HS-6, 4.7 gr in a Smith and Wesson m&p9 is not likely to blow up. Neither from over pressure nor stuck bullet due to wimpy load.

[sigcurious]

Are you sure it didn't read 450fps, it sure would explain why the brass didn't eject.

Based on Hodgons load data for similar bullets, your charge is pretty low. Where did you get your load data from?

[mwurdeman07]

I compiled load data from several different books and online. It seemed to be close. I am 99% sure it said 4457fps. Maybe I misread it, what would you guys suggest for a proper load with my current setup?

[Throckmorton]

how close to the muzzle was your chronograph ? too close will give erratic readings.
at 4500fps,the brass would not have ejected,it would have gone into orbit,along with parts of the gun.

[mwurdeman07]

It was probably too close ha, I like the way you think. That being said, whats the best way to start making proper rounds?

[Lost Sheep]

The velocity thing: How far away from the muzzle is the chronograph? At least 10 feet, I hope. The chronograph can read muzzle blast and be far off because of that. Lighting also can throw it off.

That the factory ammo velocity seems right is odd, but if the powder in the factory rounds is cleaner than the HS-6, that might explain it.

The failure to eject is another thing. If your loads are too heavy (unlikely) the brass would likely have difficult extraction (that is, the round would be left in the chamber, possibly with the extractor having ripped through the extraction "rim". But the telling evidence would be that the cartridge case would require a lot of force to remove it from the chamber. Does it?

If the load is too light, the failure to eject might leave the cartridge in the chamber or "stovepiped", stuck in the ejection port. Is that what it happening? The telling evidence is likely to be what happens when you fire the last round in the magazine. Does the slide lock back? If it doesn't, it is probably because the slide is not moving back far enough to be caught by the slide stop, a sure sign of too light a load (or too strong a recoil spring or limp wristing or a combination of these - but since factory ammo works, surely it is too light a load).

Another sign of too light a load is sooty cartridges. If the pressure is not high enough, the case does not expand tight against the chamber walls to seal the chamber. This allows the propellant gasses to leak past the case, leaving soot on it. This does not always happen, but is a significant sign.

Originally Posted by mwurdeman07

That being said, whats the best way to start making proper rounds?

You are doing it. Start low and work your way up. Shoot one round at a time. You are way ahead of most beginning reloaders, since you have a chronograph.

Where I think you have gone wrong is that you started too low. My Lee manual gives 6.8 grains as the load for jacketed 124 grain 9mm bullets. Plated bullets are usually loaded with data from the lead bullet tables, which run a little lighter than jacketed, so I would suggest dropping 10% (standard practice for starting loads) and another 5% (estimated differential for jacketed vs lead/plated). That would put you at 5.8 grains for a starting load.

Be sure your scale (powder charge) is correctly set up. (What scale are you using to verify the powder drop from your measure? If you are using Lee's tables, you are subject to some uncontrolled variation you would be well advised to eliminate.)

If you get no slide lock on final round firing and the extraction is not sticky I would be pretty sure your loads are too light and would jump up to 5.8 grains. Maybe 6.0

Re-read the early chapters of your loading manual(s). (By the way, what manuals are you using?)

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

[mwurdeman07]

Lost Sheep,

Thank you so much for your input as well as the time you put into your response. I will try to answer all of your questions.

1. I am standing only 2 feet or so away from my chrono (afraid to hit the thing, especially with my new ammo which will go who knows where) That being said the factory ammo I tested was also shot from 2 feet and the chrono read those accurately as well. I will try standing a little father back next time.

2. After shooting my "hot" rounds today the brass was still in the barrel like it was loaded and ready to be fired again, not stovepiping. This made me nervous, but they were easily removed and did not require any force.

3. The cartridges did appear to be sootier than normal. (this is interesting as evidence 2 shows signs of a hot load and the sooty ammo shows signs of a light load)

4. On the website where I bought my ammo (referenced above) it says to use formulas for jacketed 124gr bullets. So maybe I do need more powder, I will try the 5.8gr you have suggested to start. The scale I use is a Hordany gs 1500. I always zero and re-calibrate before using it. I noticed some variation, in the powder charge but not much after I warm up my pro powder measure.

5. As for the manuals I am using the lee modern reloading second ed. and the One book/ One caliber which contains information from all of the popular manuals pertaining to the 9mm.

6. Finally what do you think about the OAL I have right now at 1.125 ?

Sorry about all of my questions but I really wanna start off on the right foot and do not want to destroy my firearm or hurt myself.

[warningshot]

But anyone getting 4,500 of anything with one shot from a 9mm is out of my expertise.

[Sevens]

Two feet from your chrono is likely the answer. Suffice to say that if you could truly pull 4,500 FPS from a 124-grain 9mm load from an M&P, we'd all be trying to replicate the feat and go in to commercial production of it.

To believe that you actually launched 9mm slugs at 4,500 FPS would also be to believe that some rich guy is going to step up and buy out the national debt next Tuesday.

[m&p45acp10+1]

At two feet from the chronograph you way too close. Most readings are done at a minimum of ten feet, most at 15. The powder gas confuses the chronograph giving the false high reading.

If the loads did produce that kind of velocity then the pressure of such would more than likely have at a minimum warped the frame rails of the gun. Try moving farther back from the chronograph. All reviews will state if there was a chronograph reading how far they were from it. Almost all that I have seen use a standard of 15 feet.

[tkglazie]

6. Finally what do you think about the OAL I have right now at 1.125 ?

Thats fine. Pretty standard for 9mm

Re: the chrono- 10' away is about right. You are looking to shoot 4"-6" over the top of the chrono. I put tape on the vertical wire-rods for reference. If you are worried about hitting the chrono, set it up so you can shoot from a seated position off a sandbag while aiming at a target. Once you have the chrono adjusted between you and the target you can place a sticky-dot on the target to aim at. Squeeze the trigger smoothly and without flinching and you will be fine. It is flinching that will cause you to shoot the chrono (dont ask me how I know....)

When you are working up loads keep in mind that too-light loads can get you in as much or more trouble than too-hot loads. A stuck bullet is a very real possibility, especially with plated or jacketed bullets. The stuck bullet by itself isnt that dangerous but if you dont understand that it happened and send another one behind it things get real bad.

[Lost Sheep]

2. After shooting my "hot" rounds today the brass was still in the barrel like it was loaded and ready to be fired again, not stovepiping. This made me nervous, but they were easily removed and did not require any force.

(edited for clarity) (this is interesting as evidence 2 shows signs of a hot load and the sooty ammo shows signs of a light load)

The empty brass still chambered is not inconsistent with a light load. The likely sequence of events you experienced is this:

1) The round fired successfully and the bullet was sent down the barrel (and eventually exited the muzzle)
2) The recoil of sending the bullet down the barrel sent the slide back, extracting the empty casing, as it should, but without the momentum/energy to complete the job. Indeed, the case mouth does not extract far enough to clear the chamber.
3) The recoil spring halted the rearward movement of the slide, pushed the slide forward again and re-chambered the empty casing.

If you had more power, the casing would have its case mouth jammed up against the feed ramp or front part of the ejection port. A little more and you would have the classic "stove-pipe" jam. A little more power and you would eject the spent casing, but fail to move the slide back far enough to strip the next round from the magazine and would wind up with the slide closed on an empty chamber. A little more power and you could strip the next round and get it up the feed ramp, but not have enough momentum in the slide to full close on the cartridge (especially if the cartridge had trouble negotiating the feed ramp, consuming the momentum of the slide). A little more power and everything works as it should. But this is the pantheon of failures to feed because of too-light loads.

Your OAL is longer than the 1.095" recommended as the MINIMUM according to my reading of the Lee loading manual. That seems good to me. There are two things that govern cartridge length.

1) Feeding: The cartridge has to feed through your action. Short enough to fit in the magazine. Of such a length that it will be carried out of the magazine and up the feed ramp without jamming (which can sometimes still chamber, but with the bullet knocked deeper into the case-dangerous). Too short or too long may give problems, depending on the gun and magazine(s).

2) Pressure: The volume BENEATH the bullet is the important factor. Too much volume (too long OAL) and pressure is reduced. Too little volume (too short OAL) and the pressure is increased. Smokeless powder burns at a rate that is determined by its chemistry and by the pressure at which it is burning. If you pour 10 grains of powder in an old hubcap, flat rock or other non-flammable, flat container and put a flame to it, you will get a flame about a foot high for a second or so. That same amount of powder in a confined (thus, pressurized) space will burn in milliseconds.

You are on your way.

Holding your pistol firmly also aids in the positive ejection of the empty casing. Your hands and forearms are part of the entire weapons system and keeping the gun's frame stationary while the slide moves is a vital part of the whole, finely balanced "dance" of the gun's parts.

Lost Sheep

[Lost Sheep]

Setting up your chronograph:

Put whatever you will use as a rest for your firing position on the bench. Go downrange of the chronograph and sight back through the device, aiming the chronograph at your firing position.

Double check the location of the chronograph, that it is aligned between the firing position and the target (if you will use one, many people don't bother when using a chronograph, other than to use it as an aiming aid).

Repeat as necessary.

If there are two of you, this can be very quick.

Insurance:

My chronograph wears armor. $50 of channel iron in two pieces rests atop (between the sensors) and in front of (angled) the device. It's heavy, but will take a hit from a 500 Smith (at an angle) without a dent (I tried it with the iron resting on the ground).

Good luck,

Lost Sheep

[11B-101ABN]

Whenever I chrono a SUBsonic load, I used to get flaky readings as you did (usually very high) and the solution was to move the chrono back about 20 feet. The problem seems to be: with subsonic loads, the bullet goes through the first photocell of the chronograph, followed closely by unburnt powder and other residue from the muzzle blast (possibly even light) which trips the photocell again before the bullet trips the second one. This causes an error message or an erratic reading. On really tough cases, I put a piece of cardboard in front of the chrono which usually stops everything but the bullet...problem solved. The speed of sound is roughly 1100 fps which is why your factory loads gave good readings. Since they operate in a hostile environment, my present chronograph (number 3) lives in a 1/4 inch steel box with a slanted 1/2 inch plate in front and uses soft wood dowel rods in place of the aluminum ones supplied.

[mwurdeman07]

Hey guys I finally got it, I moved back about 7ft from the chrono and found I needed alot more powder as it was significantly undercharged. I ended up using 6.4gr of H6 to get it moving around 1150 fps. It is not very consistant and sometimes falls below 1,000 fps. Is this common in pistol loads? Finally I did some math and calculated It still costs about $7 a box to reload 9mm which isnt that much cheaper than buying steal case at $8.50 but oh well it's still enjoyable. I see the real savings will come into play when I start reloading .45ACP

[Dakotared]

$7 a box what are you shooting? Get cast lead or look around for other deals.

Right now I am loading

100gr 9mm frangmentable bullets at a cost of $19.99 for 500
4.4gr w231 at $130 for 8lbs
small primers about $25 per 1000

Now I do not count my cases and they are free range pick up

with all the above I am just over $4 a box of 50

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Dakotared

100gr 9mm frangmentable bullets at a cost of $19.99 for 500

You're getting bullets delivered to your door for 4 cents a piece?

[mwurdeman07]

$4 a box?! wow! This is what I am shooting now http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/produ...&categoryId=12

I realize its not the best price, but it has free shipping. Where are you buying your bullets from??

[Dakotared]

Yes I did I got them at midway usa. They are sold out now http://www.midwayusa.com/product/685...-bulk-packaged .

I ordered 2000 of them and wish I got more. So like I was saying look around for deals and when you find them buy all you can afford.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Well, that is an exceptional buy (although there would be shipping so not quite as exceptional as it appears) but I suspect it was a one time never again deal. I don't see them listed by any other retailer or even by Remington as individual bullets, only as loaded ammo. They don't even have a product selection for handgun bullets.

[Dakotared]

it was $97 shipped for the 2000 bullets