March 14, 2017, 02:52 PM | #26 | ||
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However, we do not expect to be ambushed in places where we do not think we're gone to be ambushed. In fact, the likelihood that we will ever have to pull a gun on any given day is far less than remote. But the potential consequences of not being able to do so timely are extremely severe. Quote:
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March 14, 2017, 04:59 PM | #27 | |
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March 14, 2017, 06:41 PM | #28 |
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I have done a lot of fighting, in England mostly.
In a threat, I find my foot will fly, or a fist. Even the often used Liverpool Kiss. Head butt to the bridge of his nose. Coming upon a fight in a club (Me working there) a back of a combatant facing me. Study anatomy! The Kidney is a show stopper! Bring your fist in from belt level, hard, punch through the spot your fist will land. Move on to the next one. From the front, the throat is so sensitive. The starter bell is a knife, or gun? Draw and fire, at least in multiples of two. Real close, the nose, or eye socket. The guns? Same gun, same place always. I use two Glock 19s TruGlo night sights, extended slide stops, factory. Butt plug, flush fit, makes for great mag changes. Flash light on left, G17 spare mag. Too. 124g NATO Hardball. Do not open the slide a bit to check chamber, my pistols have a wee square on the extractor, confirms chamber status. My lock blade is a Bench Made, expensive, a present from my Son. 3.5" razor sharp blade. |
March 14, 2017, 07:11 PM | #29 |
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I guess I'm guilty. But in my multiple-gun defense, I absolutely acknowledge the reality of muscle memory, and purposefully use other physical clues to reinforce my "drill" and remind me what I am carrying, namely a combination of location and holster choice.
For example, if I'm diving into a cargo pocket, you know I'm not fishing for a 1911. And my Beretta 92f is the only thing that has ever ridden in a GI/Galco full-flap holster, and is about the only gun I use in open-carry/wilderness situations. No manual safeties on either Sigs or Glocks. Pull the trigger after disengaging the thumb-break at 3 o'clock, and it goes bang. I think you get the point. Does my technique work? Well, I'll let you know when I get into the aforementioned ambush. |
March 14, 2017, 07:36 PM | #30 |
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I agree that things can become over complicated. A few years back, I alternated amongst 1911s, Glocks, revolvers.
Since then, I have simplified it into two firearms: I carry a Glock 19 MOS (IWB) and a S&W 640 357 (pocket). I was just carrying a revolver and a backup revolver prior to this. When I hike or hunt, I have a DA/SA revolver in addition to my primary hunting tool. As long as the relative operation is similar, I don't think it makes a huge difference...Even with muscle memory. I shoot a variety of concealed carry handguns to stay competent and effective but they do share the same qualities: No external safety Double action If there are handguns with sights that require a target to be covered (at less than 15 yards), versus 6:00 hold (Big Dot XS) or a S&W M&P, versus a 6:00 hold like the rest of my pistols, that can be a big issue. When you are switching amongst different designs of semiautomatics, I can see confusion as to whether flipping up removes the safety or flipping down does. The other Hangup is the magazine release which can be along the thumb side, index finger side, along the bottom of the grip or bottom of the trigger guard. Lastly, there is always a variation in round count. Some 15+1, versus 10+1, versus 8 and so on. But that should be predetermined by what you're choosing for the day. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
March 14, 2017, 09:19 PM | #31 | |
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At the range. And we do not try to eject the empties from a Ruger Blackhawk the same way as we do from a Smith and Wesson Model 27. Yet we can handle either one. At the range. Nor does the odd location of the ignition switch of our restored SAAB 900 keep us from starting it just because it isn't the same as our F-150 daily driver. None of that relates to the short-split-second reaction required in an emergency under stress. There are automotive examples and analogies pertaining to aircraft. What the trainers tell us is that for defensive carry, it is best to carry the same or an almost identical gun every day and to carry it in the same place on the body. |
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March 14, 2017, 09:59 PM | #32 |
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OldMarksman I do not question the advantage of carrying the same gun in the same way everyday. I generally do. That does not mean I will not act just as quickly and accurately with my LCP or revolver in a high stress situation. Having never had to draw a weapon in a life threatening encounter I can't know this for sure. I don't accept that having a thumb safety on my primary carry, and not on my secondary ones puts me at greater risk.
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March 14, 2017, 10:07 PM | #33 | ||
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Not just at the range. At a certain proficiency level you know the difference (and can apply that to action) at all times. As Mavracer put it if you aren't proficient with a given weapon, that's a training issue. A physical handicap if you will. It looks to me like it's also a mental handicap. Quote:
I'm not saying you should do something you aren't comfortable with. I think you should do what you feel is best and if that is carry the same pistol all the time hey, that's super. No skin off my arse. I just think it's pretentious for a body to impose their skill-set on others which is how I see the original post and a number of responses.
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March 14, 2017, 10:23 PM | #34 | |
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March 14, 2017, 10:26 PM | #35 |
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There was nothing pretentious about my original post.
But, there is here- this is my "skill-set" I have been carrying a gun for about 45 years. I have carried almost every type. I have worked on them professionally. I have taught people to shoot. I own and am proficient with more guns than most people have ever seen. My post was a very general one, directed at people just like you-who think they are smarter and more proficient than most. MAYBE you can pull it off. MAYBE you can't. But, my advice can keep your arse alive- and it's no skin off MY arse. |
March 14, 2017, 10:48 PM | #36 | |
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March 14, 2017, 10:52 PM | #37 | ||||
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I was quite comfortable carrying a striker fired pistol with a manual safety that was similar in operation to a 1911, but somewhat different in location. I practiced extensively, and I convinced myself that I knew what I was doing. I took a course under a well-known trainer who strongly advised against carrying a gun that required a separate operation to disengage a safety--the exception being the 1911, for obvious reasons. And guess what--the first time I failed to disengage that safety happened to occur in a class when he was watching--not a high stress situation, but perhaps with some performance anxiety. I don't care whether it was the result of a "physical handicap" or a "mental handicap". It happened, and under different circumstances, it could well have led to disaster. That was also the last time. He told me to keep the safety disengaged for the rest of the two day class. And then I replaced the gun with one with a grip safety only. That trainer now carries the same gun. Quote:
It is simply the considered advice of experienced trainers. Some of them see a dozen or more students training in long two day sessions more than once a week. And they share their observations with others. They see more different techniques, different holsters, different carry positions, and different firearms used under high-performance training conditions than I have, or than most of us do. I choose to follow their advice. |
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March 14, 2017, 11:00 PM | #38 | |
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He did remark about people who think that they know more than they actually do, and there is a lot of that going around. I have had a touch of it myself, off and on over the last fifty five years of pistol shooting. That's why I have availed myself of the best defensive shooting training I could find. That training has taught me things that I did not know I did not know. And there's surely more to be learned. |
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March 14, 2017, 11:06 PM | #39 | |
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You took decent advice and made it into an ultimatum which is completely ridiculous. An experienced shooter would recognize this as a generally good idea but that it's not an end-all be-all way of doing things because people can learn to shoot and be proficient with a number of different firearms and can tell the difference when carrying one or another. My guess is that you are a very proficient shooter but that doesn't mean the theory you buy into is the only thing going. I think mavracer hit the nail more squarely on the head than I first thought. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunnin...3Kruger_effect
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March 14, 2017, 11:14 PM | #40 | |||
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March 14, 2017, 11:28 PM | #41 | ||
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I suggest that trainers who observe large numbers of students trying out different techniques, and in my experience that has meant seeing the same people try different firearms or carry positions during a class for various reasons, probably do have a better grasp on this and other relevant fusions than do most of us. Quote:
The I. C. E. PDN trainers, including Walt Cunningham, Rob Pincus, and the others, like to distinguish between "good shooting" and the effective defensive use of a firearm, and all of that the latter entails. The reason for what they advise relative to this issue, which is the same thing that Bill DeShivs advised in the OP, is that it does not really pertain to proficiency in shooting the firearm, or even to drawing, presenting, and shooting, when that is what the shooter has set out to do. Rather, it has to do with what happens when a citizen is suddenly faced with an explosive, unexpected violent situation when he or she has not been expecting it. Might I respectfully suggest that you and everyone else here who may tend to think of this in terms of "proficiency" look into one of the relevant I. C. E. PDN home study courses, or better yet, attend a class. |
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March 14, 2017, 11:30 PM | #42 | |
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March 15, 2017, 12:00 AM | #43 |
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One book that is worth reading slowly and thoughtfully that is now out of print is Counter Ambush--The Science of Training for the Unexpected Defensive Shooting, by Rob Pincus. You may be able to obtain a copy.
Here's a review from Amazon: "The title threw me. It sounded to me like something suited for soldiers entering Tikrit. When I asked the author, Rob Pincus, why he chose that title, he answered me, but I must confess that I was still not entirely sure.Books are great, but training is better. and Combat Focus Training, which is available at a number of sites every year, is worth every penny. It is extremely important to distinguish between practicing the draw and training to observe, decide, react, recognize, and respond instantly when there is no buzzer and when we have not been told where the target is. Same or similar gun every day? Rob and others have given us their advice, and I think it likely that anyone who has gone the the Combat Focus Training course will come to the same conclusion. |
March 15, 2017, 12:11 AM | #44 |
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Did anyone miss, "train with it until you know it's every nuance."?
And, it was not, "I'm smarter than you (though I probably am.) It was "please take this as very good advice from someone who is probably more experienced than you." And my original post was very generalized. I have no doubt that I could PROBABLY deploy most any gun that I desired to carry- but, guess what? I carry the same gun in the same place every day. Maybe you can do otherwise, but my post was to give you the benefit of a lot of experience and study-and maybe even save your life. Now- you can take my advice and do what you want with it. You have already told me what I can do with it. |
March 15, 2017, 12:35 AM | #45 |
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The OP is 100% correct! Think about it folks. Eating something with a fork is not the same as eating something with a spoon, yet we all do both frequently. But we all use fractions of a second (or more) to adapt to the change in utensils. In a life or death situation you don't want to waste a fraction of a second to remember if you have a fork or spoon - or a 1911 or a .357 3"revolver.
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March 15, 2017, 04:16 AM | #46 |
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Ambush?
Not sure if I have spoke, written about this incident here?
It happened a couple of years ago, half a mile from home, in our local Publix Grocery Store. First let me say, shopping with my Wife is not a pastime I relish! So on this particular afternoon, I had opted out, and was reading a Library Book in the Jeep, a marked Security vehicle, my Son supplies me with a gas card, what can I say! My Wife doing the look, press, and shake routine she likes. My Cell phone rings "There are two young guys, pants hanging, dread locks, following me about, they have no basket, or cart" "Call me when you are at the check out line, I will be under the overhang, walk slowly out, come out of the far right door, then walk a little faster, keep close to the right wall" That is what happened. The two not local Hoodsters were about 7 yards behind her. These two were from no were near Dr. Phillips! They had no grocery's, the one on my left closest to the wall, my Wife was walking by, was focused on my Lady. His buddy was scanning. He saw me! I was standing behind the Jeep, they both had hands clear of there pockets (amazing how there pants stayed up!) Scanner grabbed his buddy's arm, and they took off like rabbits, to the Road. They had no car, my Wife had the keys to their ride. What went through my mind, my 9mm is going to be really loud! I was not that worried, I held all the surprise on my side. But 5 minutes later, the Adrenalin hit! Might have found it hard to drink a full glass of water! Being married to paranoid Harry for twenty five years, paid off. Told the Manager? He was mildly interested. That same store was robbed a year later, at closing time. And yes, I walk with the love of my life now. Still carry my Glock 19 Gen 4, same place, as always. |
March 15, 2017, 05:55 AM | #47 |
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I've only ever had 3 carry guns: a 1911, an LCR, and a Glock 19. For the past 3-4 years, I carry either the LCR or the G19 about 98% of the time. (Though I do occasionally fall to the siren song of the 1911.)
For me, it's not a question about whether *somebody* could be proficient with different systems and carry locations. It's about whether *I* can. I'm 47 years old with a ~50 hour per week job and school tuition to pay. I'm lucky if I can get to the range 5 times per year. I have neither the time nor the budget to cross-train with several pistols until I develop enough muscle memory to be comfortable with all of them. So I stick to one set of controls: point and shoot. OldMarksman -- Nice review. I wonder who that wise Arkansas lawyer could have been who said that a gunfight is not the time to learn new skills?
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March 15, 2017, 06:25 AM | #48 | |
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I propose that the person most capable of thinking his or her way through an extreme stress situation is the one most likely to come out of it alive. The problem is there is no way of knowing who this is and effectively training for it in a true life and death situation is beyond complicated. Muscle memory is all good and fine. However I worry that taken to the extreme this is troublesome. We are discussing the split difference response time when suddenly and unexpectedly ambushed to where our mind does not think clearly. The ability when met with surprise to evaluate the threat, draw, and fire in a manner that is both effective and quick enough to defeat multiple attackers who have taken you by surprise. I'm sorry but there are levels one can train for and levels one cannot. This is the level where I simply admit I am not "winning" Multiple competent and determined attackers given the value of surprise against me are going to overcome what defenses I can muster. That being said. There are some of you, judging by what is written here, that should make very certain none of your friends ever throw you a surprise party of any type or in any other way startle you. You might misjudge on the evaluate the threat portion and muscle memory could take over. Edit: Please note that I started this discussion arguing that if one trains with a "complicated" firearm such as a 1911 he or she should carry a similar firearm or one less complicated. Swiping at a non-existent safety lever under muscle memory is fairly meaningless. Failing to swipe a safety is not. Switching to a safety that moves in the opposite direction could be tremendously detrimental. Last edited by Lohman446; March 15, 2017 at 07:21 AM. |
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March 15, 2017, 10:06 AM | #49 | ||||||
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Do you believe that you will be faced with a self defense situation that does not involve surprise? Quote:
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March 15, 2017, 10:13 AM | #50 |
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Too Many Choices?
I'm not a wealthy person, my rotation contains a G26.
It was a Walther P5c but that got to be too valuable to be lost in an evidence locker should I have ever needed to use it. So, I sold it and used the proceeds to purchase the Glock, holster and extra magazines. This works for me. |
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