Scope Adjustment

[dmorgan]

I have a Savage model 10 fcp-sr in 6.5 creedmoor. It came from the factory with a 20 moa egw rail. I put a Leupold Rifleman 3-9x50 in Tps low rings on it. When I went to zero it in I started at 25 yards and the first shot was about 15-18 inches low. As we tried to turn the crosshairs down to the spot of impact I ran out of vertical adjustment. After the adjustment I shot a second time and it was still about 6-8 inches low. I have done some research and reading on the 20 moa rail and everything that I have found says that it should be hitting high and not low. I researched the scope I have and the website says that the rifleman scope that I have should have 56 moa of adjustment, when I calculated the amount of adjustment I got 64 moa so I set the mechanical zero on the scope to it and tried re-zeroing but had the same issue again. I am completely confused on what is wrong and what I need to do to get it zeroed. Any information and advise will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[NoSecondBest]

I've never seen a rifle come from the factory with an EGW rail. I know what they are, but I wasn't aware Savage was offering them "from the factory". Anyway, try turning the rail around. If mounted backwards it will do what you're saying it's doing. Someone may have put it on reversed, the high end is on the front instead of the back.

[tobnpr]

"Should" be OK...
Your scope's specs show 56 minutes of total adjustment available, which "theoretically" means 28 up, 28 down. Move 20 from the "down" side to "up"- there should be 48 available - in a perfect world.

When you started- and said you were almost 18 low (did you have the range of adjustment centered?

IOW- whenever "zeroing" an optic, you count total turns available, then center the reticle by going back to the halfway point.

BTW- sure about what you have? Savage shows the 10 FCP-SR only in .308:

http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/10FCPSR/

[dmorgan]

Yes i counted the total moa and divided it in half to get the middle ground. I set the vertical and horizontal adjustments to mechanical center. All the specs say that the gun has a 20 moa EGW rail but this is the first rifle that I have ever had a rail on so I don't know if it is really a 20 moa EGW rail or another brand. Yes it is a Savage model 10 FCP-SR in 6.5 CM. I was told that this gun was a special production run from Savage and that is why it does not show up on their website. The SKU number is 22338.

https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperst...hreaded-barrel

[tangolima]

Something is not right. 15" @25yd is 60moa. That is too low even the base is reversed.

-TL

[Jimro]

Just because you have 56 minutes of total adjustment doesn't mean that your setup will let you use a 20 minute rail.

If your zero on your rifle is less than 20 MOA from the end of an adjustment, then you can't use a 20 MOA rail and zero at a relatively close range.

And the other thing is that windage adjustment actually eats up elevation adjustment. Your scope is a "tube within a tube" and if you max out windage getting zeroed, you've minimized the amount of elevation you can use.

A Leupold Rifleman 3-9x50 isn't exactly a great long range scope, so I recommend you get a better long range scope for your rifle, even a cheap Bushnell Elite 10x40 or Swift 3-12x40 mildot will be better for long range shooting. But if you really want to get your rifle shooting with that scope, get some Burris XTR Signature rings with the alignment inserts to try to center the scope better. Or get an EGW 0 MOA base for even cheaper and swap it out.

Jimro

[random guy]

If the 20MOA base was simply "too much" for the scope, it would be shooting high, not low. I had the same issue with a 20MOA base on my .308. It would only mount in one direction so I assume it was machined backwards. Took it off and forgot about it.

[tobnpr]

Something is not right. 15" @25yd is 60moa. That is too low even the base is reversed.

You're right- I missed the 25 yard part.

Something is defective with the setup. I think it's safe to rule out the rings (TPS is high quality) and the base (not much could go wrong, there).

I'd also rule out "something loose", because it's not a wandering POI- it's consistently ridiculously low.

If the 20MOA base was simply "too much" for the scope, it would be shooting high, not low.

Absolutely. OP has the opposite issue. If the OP had a level base (not down-angle), it could be checked against the receiver with a small level placed in the receiver cutout and then on the optic.

I'd recommend swapping the optic. If that's not possible, I'd either send it to Leupold or return it for exchange as defective from where you bought it if it's new enough.

[cw308]

Why are you zeroing at 25 yards with a 6.5 CM ? Its a great round, made for long range with very little recoil. Zero at 100 yards. If your not shooting 500 - 1000 yards change the base to a zero moa. with that scope. I have a Bushnell 6x24x40 had the same problem , ran out of adjestment. I'm shooting 200 yards, 308 cal. Changed to a Zero base. You can shim the front of the base with a piece of aluminum can just to try but better to change the mount.

Hope I Helped, Chris

[dmorgan]

The 25 yard zero was just to get close on paper before I moved out to zero at 100 yards.

[Dufus]

The Savage page does not mention anything of a 20 MOA EGW rail.

All it calls it is a one piece scope rail.

Also, it is listed only in 308 Win.

[Jimro]

If the 20MOA base was simply "too much" for the scope, it would be shooting high, not low. I had the same issue with a 20MOA base on my .308. It would only mount in one direction so I assume it was machined backwards. Took it off and forgot about it.

I agree, "should be." Bullets pass through line of sight twice, the near zero and the far zero. Only when the zero is at max ordinate will the near and far zero be equal. Anything closer than the near zero "shouldn't be" any further off than the scope to bore difference.

That's with all things being equal, no inner scope tube binding. Or buggered scope install, or wonky rings, or barrel out of alignment. Lots of things can cause low impact, but still, a Leupold Rifleman isn't on my recommended list of optics for dialing in a shot at distance. Great for low light hunting though.

Jimro

[dmorgan]

The Savage page does not mention anything of a 20 MOA EGW rail.

All it calls it is a one piece scope rail.

Also, it is listed only in 308 Win.

Yes it is a Savage model 10 FCP-SR in 6.5 CM. I was told that this gun was a special production run from Savage and that is why it does not show up on their website. The SKU number is 22338.

I pulled the scope and rings off and put a straight edge on the rail and measured the distance from the barrel to the bottom of the straight edge and it was the same measurement all the way down. With that being said I don't believe it is a 20 MOA rail, because if it was wouldn't the straight edge slope down towards the barrel? (can you tell I am a novice at rails?) Is it at all possible that the rail is not a cant rail and it is a 20MOA straight rail?

[tangolima]

You need to measure from the bore axis, which is not easy to do. 20moa is equivalent to 0.12" in 20".

-TL

[cw308]

I would think by taking a measurement from the front of the base height an the rear of the base , the rear would be higher. 100 yard zero isn't that hard. You can bore sight to get in the neighborhood, take it to a range with a proper backstop to see where your rounds are hitting if not on paper. Sighting is part of the fun of shooting . In the military firing at both extremes bracketing using the scopes thick and thin cross hairs worked also ,now mil dots.

[tobnpr]

I would think by taking a measurement from the front of the base height an the rear of the base , the rear would be higher.

This is a good way to check if the OP has calipers. I've installed countless dozens of scope bases on Mosin-Nagants, and this is how I check them for "level" to the flat on the bottom of the receiver before epoxy bedding them (they very rarely will sit level if just screwed down onto the receiver). Measuring to the top of the rail just behind the recoil lug, and at the rear will give an indication if the rail is defective (higher in the front than the rear) as well as checking to see if it is indeed a down-angle base. IIRC, 20 moa is about thirty thousandths over 5".

[cw308]

tobnpr
I also bed the rail, most aren't perfect. I installed a Ken Farrell base on my Rem 700 was close to perfect as perfect could be. When I positioned the base on the rifle to check it was rock solid no movement detected. Still used a little Devcon steel.

[PlatinumCore16]

So I looked at your rifle on the link and sure enough it's in 6.5. It appears to be their "Scout" stock without the cheek riser (it's the same color, has the same mag attachment, and has the 3 sling swivels. my guess is they haven't sold as many of them as they'd like and they are looking to get some sort of profit.)

Looking at the picture it does not appear to be a 20moa rail. The description only says that it's a 1-piece EGW rail, nothing about 20moa. If you google 20MOA rail, they are pretty noticable. But if you have a set of calipers, you should be able to see a difference in the front and the back on a flat surface.

Either way, I would start at 100yds to get on paper. With a cartridge like that, 25yds isn't going to tell you anything and honestly trying to debug a "problem" at 25yds is not worth your time. If you push it out and are still having issues, then I'd start looking into causes.

Edit: and to touch on your question(straight cant, 20MOA rail), if it's a "20MOA" rail, it has 20 Minutes Of Angle downwards. Therefore it cannot be "straight" a la horizontal.

[cw308]

Close shooting with a scope. The scope center is sitting about 2" off the barrel, takes a lot of adjustment to zero at that distance. But I remember sighting at 25 meters with a peep sight would center at 100 meters in the military.

[tangolima]

If poi is 5" below poa at 25yd with elevation maxed out, there is no chance it will zero at 100yd. The shots will go below paper.

It rather simple. The scope is above the bore by say 2". The poi must not be below the poa by more than 2" until after the 2nd zero crossing. I don't believe the scope is mounted more than 5" above the bore in this case.

-TL

[dmorgan]

UPDATE: I pulled the scope off and measured the rings and they were both the same, I did however swap them around just to see if that made a difference. I went out today (6-24-17) and shot again. After swaping the rings I ran into the same problem again. I took a coke can and cut some shims out to put under the rear of the scope to see if that would help. I ended up having to put 5 shims between (under the scope body) scope body and rear ring and 5 between (on top of the scope body) scope body and front ring. By doing this I was able to get enough vertical adjustment to get the rifle zeroed at 100 yards.

With all this being said I believe that I need to change rails to a 20 MOA cant or maybe even higher, and then continue to save up and then get another scope with more internal adjustment for longer ranges.

Any other suggestions and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Get rid of the rail. Mount a wind-age (adjustable rear mount.) and appropriate front mount if two pcs and Rings. Count the scopes turns stop to stop in the Horizontal adjustment. Split the difference dial the knob too and leave there. Do the same with your Vertical adjustment. (count split the difference dial too and leave set) Shoot the rifle for effect than adjust the wind-age adjustable mount as close to bullseye center as possible. Fire for effect.
High or low on paper is not a problem just so long as bullet impact is centered with bullseye above or below on paper. Than adjust your scopes Horzontal & Vertical turn knobs on the highest power your scope is capable of. Fire for effect. Check the scopes Low power and tweak the scopes adjustments a little if needed. Fire for effect. Do a second check of the High power to see its now fully adjusted point of impact. Fire for effect. If you like the accuracy your scope is showing its now sighted in.

[tobnpr]

You should never place shims between the scope and inside of the ring.
You're creating a situation where you've made the rings out-of-round (and canting the scope as well) and it will not correctly fit the rings- it will have only a small point of contact there and you risk deforming the scope tube.

Scope rings must be identical and aligned- which is why we lap them into alignment when needed.

Place any shims required under the base- not between the rings and optic. Even this isn't ideal because the holes in the base have limited clearance with the screw shanks and you're inserting a screw vertically though a canted hole- but it will work with limited shim thickness.