Texas Deer Hunting - what went wrong?

[impact]

Butch I'm fixen to tell you one of my hunting secrets I like to get in a tree with my tree lounge not to far from a oak tree dropping acorns. A oak tree with lots of cover. The deer feel safe with the cover. I think the sound of the falling acorns brings in the deer. Works better than a feeder I think! But in some crazy way is a oak tree that drops it 's acorns is the same thing as a feeder?

[butch50]

Impact: Sport hunting is about knowing and understanding the deer so well that you can find them. What you describe is knowing the deer so well that you found them. In some crazy way is the oak tree like a feeder? Only if you planted it and waited 100 years for it to mautre

In any sport hunting scenario, other than just luck, you are taking advantage of what nature has to offer, whether it is acorn mast or a downed tree to take cover behind.

I am against two things primarily. Training deer, and fencing them in. Am I that far off base in thinking those two things are wrong? OK three things, I am against laziness too, but then I make my living in the construction world and laziness is just plain not tolerated.

[20cows]

20cows don't you need to put in for a permit and hope to get a permit to hunt mule deer at Black Gap

To be honest, I don't know. It is not even close to being practical enough to look into it in that much detail. It' just too far and at the wrong time for me as a teacher to consider seriously. With what litle I did find out, that if you pay the $40 permit fee you can hunt most any game animal in season or varments year round. There may be a special permit for mule deer there, but if there is I am unaware of it. A special permit is not required for mule deer on the private land in the area.

I know there is other public land in Texas, but not West Texas. Guess where I am. BTW, most of the places that sell hunting liscenses have the brochure with the details on public land available for hunting across the state.

Remember, I HAVE a place of my own to hunt, and until my character has been impugned here, I never realized I had an urgent need. I realize that I am not the subject of the strongest criticism being offered here (I'm not hunting over bait nor from a blind), but, "Well, maybe in Texas it is, but around here we call that "road hunting/shooting/spotting/cheating" is not quite the way I see it.

[siotwo]

OK, I'll chime in.....

Hunting over feeders......ever have NO DEER show up at sunrise when the feeder goes off? I have more times than not. It is not a sure thing. Wind blows, spreads your sent, spooks the deer. Sounds like hunting to me.

Ever sit at the corner of a pasture and not see deer? I have. The "other" pasture always has the deer.

Ever hunt antelope in Wyoming....most I've seen drive around..jump out and shoot. If you want a bow shot, you sit at a water hole, in a box.

Do you use a depth finder when fishing? I do. Ever bait a catfish hole? Is this different than baiting deer? The fish fillets taste just as sweet don't they

I'm at the top of the food chain, so I will use any legal means. I enjoy the hunt, whether stalking, sitting in a blind near a feeder, or 20ft up a tree over some acorns and deer sign. Either way, I want to KILL the animal and eat it. Thats the point.

High fence is a money maker, I agree. But if I had a 3-500+ acres and the neighbors shoot anything with 4 legs, I'd put up a fence (after bringing all the deer I could onto the property using feeders, food plots and waterholes) Of course, after all that work, the deer would probably stay without the fence, but why do the work for the neighbors.

(hiya impact, how've you been)

Ron

[DAVID NANCARROW]

"We hunt for sport, we do not hunt for food."

Who put you in charge of how people are "supposed" to hunt and where they should hunt, anyway?

I hunt for food. I don't care how big of a rack they sport. In fact, I like shooting does better than bucks. Easier to clean, and because the other folks I hunt with won't take does, I do to help keep some kind of balance.

My lease does not have high fences, nor do any of the properties around it that I have seen. The place is known locally as rattlesnake hill, and you better believe it!

I don't pay high fees-I'll pay more in gasoline and wear/tear on my truck for the round trip this year.

Feeders are generally misunderstood. As some have mentioned, deer are most certainly not "addicted" to corn as you have frequently stated. They will eat it sure enough, but it is not a food source for them. They seem to like grasses/alfalfa and clover much better.

I lease hunt primarily because it is safer-been to the public hunting grounds and there have been too many instances of people taking "sound" shots rather than checking the target.

As for hunting styles, I have still hunted in 20 degree weather in snow, have driven, have stand hunted, and stalked. All of them have their advantages and disadvantages, but to pound on your chest and talk down to people seems rather silly.

[butch50]

Who put you in charge of how people are "supposed" to hunt and where they should hunt, anyway?

Hello David, apparently my opnions have caused you offense. The hunters that I have seen hunt over feeders are not sportsmen, they are shooters - not the same thing at all. Fencing in deer on your land, in my humble opinion, is theft of public property regardless of how your neighbors may act. They neither belong to you or your neighbors.



To say that we do hunt for food is an over-generalization. Deer meat is very tasty, and anyone who shoots a deer but doesn't eat it has a lot more problems than we are discussing here.

Deer meat is very good, but that is not to say that we depend on deer meat for our survival is it? Hence we don't hunt for food, we hunt for sport and eat what we kill.

but to pound on your chest and talk down to people seems rather silly.

Again you are singularly offended to have used these terms; Expressing my opinion on an open forum isn't chest pounding - it is using the forum as it was intended to be used. There is no doubt that my opinion on this subject is unpopular, but so what? It is an opinion and it carries no authority to change your behavior, so why are you upset?

Ever bait a catfish hole? Is this different than baiting deer? The fish fillets taste just as sweet don't they

Baiting out a catfish hole and setting a timed deer feeder do not strike me as a resonable comparison.

Hunting over feeders......ever have NO DEER show up at sunrise when the feeder goes off? I have more times than not.

The feeders that I had some limited experience with drew lots of deer and drew them every time. As stated before though I do not have a whole lot of experience with them, but what I did see leads me to believe that the deer consider corn to be a very tasty treat, like candy. My experience with ranch stock also reinforces that, all domestic grazing animals that I have seen absolutely love corn.

[MassHunter2190]

20cows, just telling ya what we call it up here.

[20cows]

The hunters that I have seen hunt over feeders are not sportsmen, they are shooters - not the same thing at all.

...so people that shoot targets are just shooters , not sportsmen?

Deer meat is very good, but that is not to say that we depend on deer meat for our survival is it?

I have relatives that the only meat they ever have at home is meat from their own kills. (That can be quite alot of meat between 6 deer a year and feral hogs).

Baiting out a catfish hole and setting a timed deer feeder do not strike me as a resonable comparison.

His analogy is actually quite comparable, virtually the same.

Expressing my opinion on an open forum isn't chest pounding - it is using the forum as it was intended to be used. There is no doubt that my opinion on this subject is unpopular, but so what? It is an opinion and it carries no authority to change your behavior, so why are you upset?

When stating your opinion in an open forum, you have basically stated the legal means of hunting that others use is morally inferior to what you do. You have place yourself on a high horse, looking down on others. Yeah, the insult is there.

MassHunter2190, so if your driving on your own land and happen upon a deer, you would not get out of your vehicle and take the shot, because that's cheating?

[butch50]

20 Cows:

If you have relatives that truly depend upon deer meat for survival, then they should do whatever it takes to survive. But if they can afford a mechanical deer feeder and corn and a lease and a vehicle and gasoline to get there, then maybe it isn't really survival huntig? If it is truly survival hunting then the only rules are, kill to eat any way that you can. No quandries there at all.

Baiting out a catfish hole and mechanically feeding deer are not comparable in my mind. The deer are a vastly higher order of species, and deserve far more respect than the catfish. I just do not see the two as within the same realm of ethics. Are we starting to split some fine hairs here? I hope so, as I am more than willing to talk this idea through... why exactly do you see them as comparable?

Come on 20Cows, People who shoot targets are sportsmen in a different sport - no comparison. You can come up with better ones than that. Also when it comes to being insulted, you can't insult someone without their permission, so if someone feels insulted by my opinion, it is because they have allowed themselves to be insulted, which tends to indicate that they are already feeling low about what they do.

[20cows]

Also when it comes to being insulted, you can't insult someone without their permission, so if someone feels insulted by my opinion, it is because they have allowed themselves to be insulted, which tends to indicate that they are already feeling low about what they do.

Nope, sorry, gotta call BS on that one. As a school teacher, I don't recall ever giving a student "permission" to insult me, but as a person in charge of a small portion of their lives pushing them to go in a direction they'd like to avoid (ignorance is bliss, you know), it happens.

Insult ocurrs when someone you respect, or would like to, calls your honor into question. If this goes unchallenged, then one appears to admit truth to the dishonor.

[butch50]

Nope, sorry, gotta call BS on that one. As a school teacher, I don't recall ever giving a student "permission" to insult me, but as a person in charge of a small portion of their lives pushing them to go in a direction they'd like to avoid (ignorance is bliss, you know), it happens.

Excellent! But I disagree: You can not insult me, unless I participate in the exercise or have a guilt that you have discovered.. An insult occurs when I feel that I have been damaged in some way. If what you say to me is either inconsequential, or untrue, then I have not been damaged, and thus not insulted.

Accuse me of something untrue and I do not feel any pain. Criticize me for a belief that I am firmly committed to and I feel no angst. You can not insult me unless I am guilty of what you accuse, or unless I give you permission to make me feel bad.

[kingudaroad]

What do you thinK TPWD is thinking allowing baited deer hunting.Do you think they have succumbed to all the lazy rednecks who are too lazy to stalk? Do you think they are not concerned with herd quality or population problems or hunter safety? Maybe the problem lies in Texas that the deer no longer have any natural predators because all the mtn lions, bears , coyotes etc...were killed off by cunning old stalk hunters, poachers, rednecks , farmers,ranchers or whomever wanted those predators dead. I am concerned about hunting in Texas. I'm concerned about antis, poachers, and those hunters around my lease who will shoot 2 1/2 year old deer. Although I respect your opinion and do not feel the least bit offended, IMHO you are not knowledgable enough about the entire situation to make a valid argument.

[20cows]

An insult occurs when I feel that I have been damaged in some way.

Maybe this is an old southern gentleman thing. (I'm not saying you are no gentleman, but we apparently don't see this the same way). When my reputation is sullied or my honor is called to question, I am damaged.

A teacher's effectiveness can be destroyed by a bad reputation.

[butch50]

What do you thinK TPWD is thinking allowing baited deer hunting.Do you think they have succumbed to all the lazy rednecks who are too lazy to stalk? .

Good questions, very good. What I think of TPWD is that they are a political arm of the government, and that some high political office holders above the TPWD hierarchy in the government of Texas were bought off by some land/lease owners in some manner - whether legal or not. It is the only way that I can understand why high fencing was allowed to become "legal" - containing public propertry for private profit - thus TPWD does not carry very much in the way of what I consider "moral authority". Frankly they allow things that should not be allowed.

I also think that the whole thing of allowing hunting over bait just crept up on them, and us. It's not like it was a sudden thing, it just slowly evolved from landowerns figuring out what the market would let them do to maximize profits off of their lands. Additionally I don't recall ever using the term "rednecks" , but hey you can call them as you see them!

I don't think that the deer in Texas ever had much pressure from natural predators and certainly don't these days. Automobiles probably kill more deer per annum than hunters, but I have no statistics on that to back me up. I don't think historically that there have been enough predators to ever keep up with Texas deer, or probably deer in any state - they are far more subject to environmental impacts, as in starving when there are too many.

Fire ants and Killer bees and even armadillos are all recent immigrants to Texas and have had some or no impact on deer. Fire ants have practically destroyed quail hunting in many areas though. I have no idea what to do about them.

I do think though that as reasoning and civlilized people that we can hunt deer in a sporting and ethical manner, and I believe that this does not include the use of mechanical feedes and deer fencing. Poachers are beneath contempt, unless they are struggling for survival, and I have no tolerance for them.

Am I knowledgeable enough about the entire situation? Doubtlessly not - but let me ask you to do some research - how many states make it expressly illegal to hunt deer over bait? In how many states is hunting deer over bait considered unethical by the general population of deer hunters? Is Texas fairly alone in this? And IF Texas is fairly alone in this, what does that mean?

[impact]

Butch are you from Texas? You almost sound like someone how hates the idea of having to get a lease. I personally love the idea of leases. and after reading some of your replys I get the idea you need to research more on your topic. I'm still thinking you are a troll

[butch50]

Impact: I am 6th generation Texan on both sides of my family. I have been hunting for going on 45 years now, primarily in Texas, but some elsehwere also. I have seen hunting when it was a non-profit activity, all the way to the abysmal unethical and unsporting mess it is now.

I am so politically conservative that you are probably a flaming liberal by comparison, which is what my "rantings" should probably have shown by now. How anyone could read what I have written on this thread so far, and think that I am some kind of liberal just floors me. I am so conservative that I think people should actually think and act for themselves and if they do think and act for themsleves, and think and act without morals or ethics, then they should be shunned if not outright punished. Shunned if what they do is technically legal but still immoral or unethical, such as hunting over bait - here at home in Texas it is legal, but it is (in my opinion) unethical and usporting.

[JohnKSa]

I used to know a guy who had a sense of ethics that was so over-developed that he wouldn't allow his company to supply him with a computer. He bought his own and brought it to work to use. That's fine with me...

But then he accused me of stealing from the company because I would get on the internet at lunch and browse--even though that was allowed by company policy.

I can't look into his mind and know for certain what he was thinking, but I have to think it's something like what's going on in your mind.

I'm glad you have a personal moral code that transcends what the law holds you to. That's commendable. But imposing it on others or denigrating others for engaging in legal activities that don't fit within your own personal moral code is pure snobbery.

BTW, I don't hunt deer and never have, before anyone asks.

[butch50]

I'm glad you have a personal moral code that transcends what the law holds you to. That's commendable. But imposing it on others or denigrating others for engaging in legal activities that don't fit within your own personal moral code is pure snobbery, and the worst kind of elitism.

All you have explained so far is that you diagree with me, perhaps you could be more specific? I am not imposing anything on anyone, I do not have the power to do that, and I am sure everyone is quite happy that I do not . Do I denigrate people who shoot deer over mechanical feeders inside tall fences? Yes I do. Am I an elitist of the worst kind? Is it elitist to have ethics? I thought an elitist was someone who believes in rule by an elite group. Since I haven't visited my extremely individualistic poitical views on you, yet, I don't see how you can call me an elitist .

But I am willing to listen and learn.......

[JohnKSa]

I edited my post to remove the "elitism" comment less than a minute after I posted it, so I'm not going to debate that issue except to say that an elitist is someone who thinks they're better than other people are. There is, however, within the concept of elitism, the "flavor" that the state of being better is intrinsic--that doesn't apply strictly in this case which is why I deleted that particular comment.

The fact that you can not ENFORCE your moral code on others doesn't mean you're not IMPOSING it on others. By saying that people who don't abide by it are unethical, you're saying that your personal moral code applies to them--in effect, you're imposing your personal code on them. Your inability to enforce it is irrelevant.

Actually, if you read my post, you will see that I did NOT say I disagree with you. In fact, I didn't say anything at all about hunting or hunting methods except to say that I don't and haven't hunted deer. I only commented on the idea of an individual trying to apply his personal moral code to the behavior of others.

[butch50]

JohnKSa: My mistake. You did not say that you disagree with me. Let me ask you then, do you agree or not? This is certainly a topic you are allowed to have an opinon on whether you hunt or not. You are clearly well educated and intelligent, your opinion is worth hearing....

As far as imposing my personal ethics on others, I strongly disagree with you, I can not impose on others as imposing requires some authority to make people act in a way they do not want to act - and since hunting over a mechanical feeder inside a tall fence is legal then I can not possibly make them stop. I can only state what I think. By stating what I think, I do not change anything within the universe physically, therefore there is no imposition. Am I a snob? Maybe, I will have to mull that one over for awhile as I have never considered myself a snob, but that doesn't mean I am not does it? I suppose nearly all snobs never consider themselves to be one.....

However that still begs the question of "Am I wrong?' which you have not answered.....

Maybe this is an old southern gentleman thing. (I'm not saying you are no gentleman, but we apparently don't see this the same way). When my reputation is sullied or my honor is called to question, I am damaged.

20Cows: I certainly hope you are not about to challenge me to a duel? I think if you re-read my posts you will see that I have not challenged your ethics at all. As I recall you do not hunt on a tall fence lease with mechanized corn feeders. You do however hunt just inside the road after spotting deer from your truck, but on your own land. Your land may not be large enough to enjoy a full fair chase hunt. Have you ever considered it? It is the ultimate in deer hunting to take a deer on it's home grounds because you were careful enough and able enough to get close enough to make a one shot sure kill. If you are interested I will give you a very good idea of where you can do so, within 1.5 hours of Dallas and at a cost of about $40.00 .....

[JohnKSa]

The fact that you are saying they're doing wrong and using your personal moral code as the basis for that statement is, by definition, imposing your own moral code on their behavior.

The fact that you do not have the authority to ENFORCE your personal moral code has nothing to do with it.

Having and stating an opinion is one thing. There's nothing wrong with that. The snobbery begins when you insist that anyone who doesn't live up to your personal standard is unethical.

Even if I were to agree that the practice is distasteful to me, that would be different from my saying that those who do it are unethical.

[butch50]

JohnKSa:

If I understand you correctly then no one may publicly proclaim a negative opinion of the behavior of others without imposing upon them? Is your definition of imposing: stating a negative opinion of the acts of others?

I think you and I have a significantly different opinion on the definition of imposition. Here is a quote from Websters definiton of the word impose.

"enforce:compel to behave in a certain way"

Do you mean to say that I should not express a negative opinion of the acts of people engaged in legal activities? If that is your belief, then an abyss opens before your feet my friend.

Acting legally and acting ethically are not always the same thing. I do believe that I can state that my opinion is that certain individuals engaged in certain behavior are acting unethically, even though legally, and still not be imposing anything upon them or being a snob myself. If not for statements and opinions that differ from the majority and take exception to the norm then what kind of society would we be bound up in?

[20cows]

within 1.5 hours of Dallas and at a cost of about $40.00 .....

I'm 3 hours west of Dallas. This may not be much closer than the Black Gap area. Texas covers quite bit of ground.

[20cows]

Maybe judgemental is the word we're looking for.

[butch50]

20Cows - Maybe there is some public land closer to you then, not sure.

"Judgemental" is probably a better word than "imposing" when it comes to my opinions on this subject....