Negligent Discharge.

[Jim567]

OK
I did it.
A neighbor called me over to dispatch a venomous snake.
I did it.
About 2 hours later I went to unload my Ruger .22/45.
It has the mag safety I hate.
I racked the slide twice and looked into the chamber.
The room was not brightly lit. I saw no round chambered.
Inserted mag, pulled the trigger.
Pop.
Into the floor.
I will never pull the trigger again in the house.
The weapon was clean. No fowling in the chamber.
I was using Remington subsonic rounds.
Now, that is my story to the best if my ability.
Would have liked to review the video if there was one.
I need reading glasses. I was not wearing them in a room not brightly lit.

[Water-Man]

That's why it's called negligent.

[Old Bill Dibble]

You can make one of those little home clearing barrels. I have seen them for under $100 in materials. Essentially just a barrel with sand in it.

[jmr40]

Absolutely, positively not negligent. This is somewhat of a personal peeve of mine, but the term "negligent discharge" is way overused. True negligent discharges are quite rare. You did nothing that even comes close to rising to the level of negligence.

Any unintentional discharge of a weapon is an accidental discharge. The person who pulled the trigger is still responsible for the bullet and any damage that it causes. But there are several other factors that must be involved to rise to the level of negligence. Not the case here.

Over recent years some people with good intentions have decided to label any unintentional discharge as negligence. You are redefining the term in a way that will be used by the anti-gun movement to be used against us.

[Sharkbite]

Absolutely, positively not negligent.

Not to beat up the OP, BUT.....

It was negligent. By his own admission, he could not clearly SEE an empty chamber and went ahead and pressed the trigger

"The room was not brightly lit. I saw no round chambered." Was his statement. That is NOT the same as seeing an empty chamber. He goes on to say that although he uses reading glasses he did not have them on.

So, dim light, blurred vision, no positive ID of the chambers condition, followed by pressing the trigger. Negligent.

He failed to perform the PROPER unloading procedure and launched a round he did not intend to fire.

Simply running the slide (bolt) a few times and assuming the chamber is now empty is negligent.

Now, "accidents" DO happen....this was not one. Accidents are unpreventable events. This WAS preventable.

OP, the good news is no one was injured. Use it as a learning experience. ALWAYS visually CONFIRM the chamber is just an empty hole. It seems like semantics, but i look to see an "empty hole". If i cant absolutely confirm an empty hole...I have not cleared the gun.

I'll get a flashlight, move to a better lit location, whatever i need to do to see that empty hole.

I would not let this freak you out...just tighten up the nut behind the trigger a little

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Literally and legally, negligent means "failing to take proper care in doing something."

Here, the OP failed to take proper care in unloading the pistol; because when he pressed the trigger, it was loaded. A mechanical failure in a weapon can cause an unintentional discharge even if proper care has been taken by the user; but there is no mechanical failure I'm aware of that will spontaneously produce ammo in the chamber when it wasn't there before. So I think the term negilgent applies here.

Luckily because the remaining rules were being observed, nobody was hurt. I try to add a tactile check of the chamber if it is feasible; because a lot of situations happen in darkness or low light and you may need to clear a firearm in the dark. With my pistols, I'll overhand the slide and stick my pinky in through the ejection port to feel the chamber. This is basically the same as my visual check and fast and easy to do - though it wouldn't have worked on this particular pistol.

You can also just lock the slide back and reach in the chamber and feel around, though it isn't quite as fast.

[kraigwy]

Inserted mag, pulled the trigger.

How is that Negligent? Sounds deliberate to me.

I have a Ruger 22/45. Its a 22 RF, I don't dry fire remfires.

Best way I found to store a RF is to take a piece of plastic twine from your weed wacker, run it through the chamber/barrel where the string is sticking out of the chamber and muzzle where anyone can easily see the gun is safe. The drop the slide on the string.

[lunger]

Glad you are OK . Thank you for posting. We can all use a reminder especially those who think it could never happen to me.

[75218ron]

Happened to me once...I was just thankful a pet or person wasn't in the way.

[g.willikers]

It's best to check the chamber with a finger.
It's maybe called a tactile check?
It can happen with revolvers, too.
Open the cylinder, dump the loaded rounds and close it.
In dim light, a round can stick and be unseen, especially if it's partially hidden by the frame shield.
Anyone can get lax with the safety rules.
Especially with something often used and familiar.

[HiBC]

OK,its not good that it happened. But,just a second!!

I believe in redundant layers of safety ,because any one can fail.

Our OP somehow messed up clearing the chamber,or somehow another round fed . OK.Really not good.No argument.Our OP knows he has to make a change in his process.Good!

What does that change? Rule #1 "All guns are always loaded"

The muzzle was apparently pointed in a safe direction,the floor.(unless someone is in a room below you)

Pulling the trigger relaxes the striker/hammer spring.but more important,makes the gun mechanically unprepared to fire.And it gives a level of redundancy to knowing it is empty before it leaves your hand.

Its not unusual,or wrong,to see someone cycle the slide two or three times,visual the chamber,and then point a handgun in a safe direction and pull the trigger before putting the gun on the bench.

We have layer two and layer three because human beings are fallible.

My point,this story may have had a far more tragic ending had the OP NOT pulled the trigger with the gun pointed in a safe direction before putting it away.

FWIW,I find all of the comment and quibbling about the words an annoying distraction that has nothing to do with firearm safety.
The OP ,of his own free will,posted this accepting full responsibility.That is the key."I am responsible"
He did not blame it on Ruger,the ammo,some little invisible gremlin that loaded it and made him a victim.

Once he assumed accountability,he then can,and I believe will,take steps to make sure it does not happen again.

He shared it so we could maybe accept "It can happen to me" and examine our practices.

IMO,if you want to argue what defines "Negligence vs accidental vs whatever else discharges",start another thread.

[Jim567]

As the guy who did it - I will call it negligent.
I am still beating myself up.
Ugh.
I included every detail to the best of my ability to illustrate what helps the negligence along.
Room not lit well, no glasses,ect.
It's all on me.

[K_Mac]

As you know, by definition it was negligent. There are various degrees of negligence though. No harm done, and I would bet it never happens again. Good muzzle control covers a multitude of errors. Thanks for sharing. We all need to be reminded that we always have to follow proper safety practices.

[Lohman446]

I question if it was negligent. Pointed the weapon in a safe (relatively) direction and pulled the trigger - it seems like just one more step to prevent a negligent discharge.

Now had that firearm gone away stored like that it could have caused a negligent discharge that you were responsible for.

[T. O'Heir]

Reading glasses tend to be for the far sighted. Won't help in the dark. Turning the light on will. Been know to not do that myself when trying to read a map or calendar. Sad thing for an older guy to be yelling at himself to turn 'em on so he can see.
"...any unintentional discharge..." Nine times out of 10 they're proven to be operator failure.
"...fowling..." Bird hunting? snicker.

[Mobuck]

I found a live round in the chamber of my muffled 10-22 last week. I was fairly sure I'd cleared it before putting it back in the case but no denying it--there was round there when I took it out of the case. How did I know? I racked the bolt to load it and had a double feed. The chamber was really dirty (as happens with a muffler) and after clearing the double feed, retracting the bolt would not extract the loaded round. It was obvious that the typical "rack the bolt w/o mag" clearing process had left the chamber loaded the last time the rifle had been fired.
Regarding the "inserted magazine and pulled trigger" comment. This is one excellent argument for NOT having a magazine safety. W/o that farce, you can load one round, remove mag, and fire that single shot leaving the chamber clear.
We've converted all our MKIII pistols with the TK bushings to allow this single shot mode on the trap line or whenever one shot is needed.

[Koda94]

I agree with jmr40, this was unintentional. Had he not made any effort to clear and check the chamber it would have been negligent. Sounds like he needs a new extractor or something...

[Erno86]

I recently read that it's best to check everything twice, to see whether a gun is unloaded. I even started to put the double check routine in my everyday {non-firearm} work habits. Visually check to see whether the chamber and magazine are unloaded...twice, and hopefully you'll find that it decreases the error factor.

[DPI7800]

So I would like to know from the experts here which of their training doctrines they are referencing that states it is a negligent discharge?

My POST firearms instructor book states three primary types of discharges:
1. Intentional
a. You load the gun, look at sights, you consciously press the trigger, gun fires.

2. Accidental
a. Mechanical malfunction, i.e. Drop safe gun is dropped and fires
b. Outside forces cause discharge i.e. Holster strap getting inside trigger guard causing discharge

3. Unintentional (this is subdivided)
a. Voluntary-shooter does all the elements nessary to fire the gun without the intent to shoot.
1.Consciously pressing trigger not wanting the gun to shoot i.e. Disassembling a Glock

b. Involuntary- outside the realm of conscious intention
1. Sympathetic response/inter limb interaction
2. Startle reaction
3. Balance disruption
No where is negligent stated.

So those that have the NRA firearms instructor manual perhaps you can look up types of discharges and post the findings, my NRA precision rifle instrucro manual doesn't list anything.

[sig-gunner]

I wonder how many gunners are willing to admit they've accidentally fired one once.. or twice maybe.

Twice on my part.. shamefully. First time was a 12 gauge shotgun with solid slug. I had it out at an old dairy farm with the permission of the land owner who shot out there too.

I was getting ready to take a break and eat and rest when it went off, sending a huge bullet across the pasture and into the a pile of unbundled hay. I was very very fortunate.. but it took me a long time to get over the "what ifs."

As it was, the thing went off because I was engaging the safety with my finger on the trigger. The safety was a slide lever.

Second time was years later in my house. It was my old Colt 45 acp 1911. I was racking the slide with my finger on the trigger. *boom* The bullet went through the window frame, through the overhang and roof gutter, and into the side of the church wall across the street.

I immediately ran over there and found the slug lodged in the plaster. I then dialed 9-1-1 to report the incident. Red faced as hell but had to do it. I explained the situation and all seemed okay as the officers noted I was not drinking and was very upset about it. Also, one of the officers knew me from the range. He did not let on that fact at the time, but we talked about it later.

No citation, nobody hurt. But some red faced work for me to do on the church wall and a lot of thinking to do about my bad habit with my trigger finger. To say the least.

[raimius]

A discharge caused by the knowledgeable operator's failure to properly perform an intended action is negligence.

Fortunately, the other rules were followed, so only minor property damage occurred. It is a good lesson for us all. Even experienced people make mistakes. That is why discipline and overlapping safety measures are important.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

3. Unintentional (this is sub decided)
a. Voluntary-shooter does all the elements nessary to fire the gun without the intent to shoot.
1.Consciously pressing trigger not wanting the gun to shoot i.e. Disassembling a Block

b. Involuntary- outside the realm of cons us intention
1. Sympathetic response/inter limb interaction
2. Startle reaction
3. Balance disruption
No where is negligent stated.

Once again, the definition of negligence is "failure to take proper care in doing something." If I don't have the intent to shoot and I do all the elements necessary to fire the gun (see a.) and it fires, would you characterize that as "proper care?"

Likewise, if I consciously press the trigger not wanting the gun to shoot (i.e. disassembly of a Glock), and the gun shoots because I failed to clear it, would you characterize that as proper care?

If you would not characterize that as "proper care", then you are saying it was negligent.

[Water-Man]

jmr40,

What are you thinking?

[K_Mac]

Once again, the definition of negligence is "failure to take proper care in doing something." If I don't have the intent to shoot and I do all the elements necessary to fire the gun (see a.) and it fires, would you characterize that as "proper care?"

Likewise, if I consciously press the trigger not wanting the gun to shoot (i.e. disassembly of a Glock), and the gun shoots because I failed to clear it, would you characterize that as proper care?

If you would not characterize that as "proper care", then you are saying it was negligent.

There is no other way of spinning this. And yes, I once had a negligent discharge of a snub Colt .357. I am always baffled by this discussion. If it is unintentional, it is negligence. Of course you can call it anything you want. Won't change a thing though.

[Slowpoke Rodriguez]

That's why the four fundamental rules of firearms safety are so important: Generally, you have to break at least two of them before somebody gets injured...

It's usually not considered a good idea to dry-fire a rimfire anyway, due to the possibility of damaging the chamber or firing pin.

Best way I found to store a RF is to take a piece of plastic twine from your weed wacker, run it through the chamber/barrel where the string is sticking out of the chamber and muzzle where anyone can easily see the gun is safe. The drop the slide on the string.

I've heard zip-ties work well, also.

Finally, I think the "unintentional" vs. "accidental" vs. "negligent" debate is purely semantic...whatever.