getting chl soon. advice on de-escalating?

[David spargenator]

so my concealed handgun license should be coming in the mail in about 3 weeks, I've learned that its pretty much illegal to defend yourself. along with having to live with shooting someone (probably someone with a disability who doesn't know any better) if you ever had to use your gun. anyway, how would you guys de escalate situations? what are peoples psychological tics when they get angry? also, whats some advice in general on the subject? I'm new to the concealed carry world. thanks.

[dannyb]

From reading your post I have only one piece of advice. Get training. Go to a recognized source in your and get both written and practical training.

[Doyle]

I've learned that its pretty much illegal to defend yourself.

+1 on the training - especially as to how the law applies in your state.

[OldMarksman]

Yes, training.

Might I also suggest that you occupy yourself with this for a while. It will take a while.

While the synopses generally seem to focus on legality, the book will give you a lot of insight on how to recognize a threat timely, and avoid it.

[pax]

The book OldMarksman recommended is excellent. I would also recommend -- highly! -- the work of Rory Miller, especially his ConCom manual about conscious communication to manage human conflict.

You may also enjoy, and perhaps need, more information about when you can or cannot use deadly force in self-defense. For that, there is a freebie: Marty Hayes' booklet, What Every Gun Owner Needs to Know About Deadly Force Law.

Finally, I will add my voice to that of the others. Professional training would be an excellent investment. Don't put it off!

pax

[Evan Thomas]

Another vote for training, ASAP. In the meantime, and until those books you're going to order arrive, here's another excellent resource:

No Nonsense Self Defense

There's enough information there on how to avoid and de-escalate conflict to keep you busy for days.

[Deaf Smith]

Well if it's Texas CHL training they do have some on deescalation techniques.

Might also look at South Narc's class on handling unknown contacts.

Deaf

[Skans]

what are peoples psychological tics when they get angry?

I stay far away from people with psychological tics!

Seriously, if someone (a stranger) really means to do you harm, you probably won't have time to "de-escalate" the situation. The bad guy's mind is made up and he's implementing his plan to attack you, for whatever reason. You will simply have to make a snap decision at that time whether you are really in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm. Personally, if a situation can be de-escalated, I ain't hanging around to try and de-escalate it - I'm leaving lickiety-split...if I can.

[pax]

Originally Posted by Skans

Seriously, if someone really means to do you harm, you probably won't have time to "de-escalate" the situation. The bad guy's mind is made up and he's implementing his plan to attack you, for whatever reason.

De-escalation happens before "someone really means to do you harm." It happens before "his mind is made up" and before he begins "implementing his plan to attack you."

A solid understanding of violence dynamics helps us understand that criminals don't generally attack "for whatever reason" out of the clear blue sky. They usually have definite goals and specific things they're trying to accomplish, and use violence as a tool to get those things. This understanding helps us stay out of the situations that could easily turn violent; helps us find the most-likely ways we can avoid violence in dicey situations we couldn't otherwise avoid; and helps us perceive escalating danger so that we're more likely to stay ahead of the other person's decision to act.

So yes, you probably will have time to use that skill -- if you have the interpersonal and awareness tools that would let you do that.

Originally Posted by Skans

You will simply have to make a snap decision at that time whether you are really in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm.

And that "snap decision" had better be made in advance -- now would be a good time -- at least in its broadest outlines. If we haven't done that basic groundwork and set our mindset on the right path, we're far more likely to freeze or to make bad decisions in the heat of the moment.

Some questions that begin the journey down that road:

• By my own ethical, moral, or emotional beliefs, is it ever permissible to kill another human being?
  .
• Am I myself able to pull the trigger if that is what it takes to survive?
  .
• Under what circumstances am I myself willing to take a human life?
  .
• Under what circumstances am I not willing to do that? (Do my answers change if the criminal is very young, or a woman, or pregnant, or very old, or mentally challenged? Do they change if my children will see what happens? Do they change if there's a media crew taping it all for the 6 o'clock news?)
  .
• What are my state and local laws governing the use of lethal force?

There are many, many other such questions we can ask ourselves about this subject.

For myself, I've also set in place a few boundaries: things that I will absolutely never do, even if I don't think I can "win" against the bad guy. Again, these are decision points that are already made, so that an in-denial brain and a reassuring bad guy cannot treat me and my family as the BTK killer treated his victims.

Some of these include:

• I will not go anywhere at gunpoint. If the bad guy wants me to go somewhere else, it’s because he will be able to do something to me there that he is unwilling or unable to do to me right here, right now. Therefore no matter how bad the tactical situation seems, right here, right now is the absolute best chance to fight back I will ever have and I intend to use it.
  .
• I will not be tied up. If the bad guy wants to tie me up, it is because he wants to do things to me that I would be able to prevent if I were not tied up. Therefore, I will resist while I am still able to do so.
  .
• I will not kneel. No one is going to execute me. If I die, I’ll die fighting.
  .
• If someone tries to take one of my children, I will fight even at the risk of my child being killed in the resultant firefight. I plan this not because I have positive assurance that I would be successful, but because I would not be able to live with myself if I simply “allowed” my child to be taken, brutalized, and his body perhaps never found. I’d rather watch him die in front of me. (Yes, that’s harsh … but given those two options and only those two, which would you choose?)

So there are many decisions that we can make in advance, and having made those decisions in advance will help us act very quickly during an event -- if it comes to that.

Originally Posted by Skans

Personally, if a situation can be de-escalated, I ain't hanging around to try and de-escalate it - I'm leaving lickiety-split...if I can.

Never stood and talked to the clerk at a store when there was a dispute about your bill?

Never backed off the gas pedal and let another driver have "your" spot in traffic, rather than continuing to jockey for position with an aggressive driver?

Never apologized to anyone, ever?

Somehow, I doubt it. We use de-escalation skills all the time, every day of our lives. Calling it something 'tactical' and thinking of it in the context of avoiding deadly force doesn't make it any less an everyday skill.

The decision to leave, lickety-split -- that's a good choice. When it's possible. Having a solid understanding of violence dynamics and a good grasp of de-escalation skills may be exactly what makes that escape possible.

pax

[TxWheels]

I would suggest you take a long, deep look inside yourself before you ever strap on a gun. And ask yourself; am I willing to use my gun to take a life to defend my own or someone elses?

Then if you think you can, go get some training from someone who's been there and done that.

[TXAZ]

Ditto and +1 on several comments above:
Training, the right weapon, de-escalation, and a serious self discussion on when and where you're willing to pull the trigger in anger.

The very best weapon is situational awareness, *not* being in a bad place at a bad time.

[db4570]

I think this is an excellent post. Although I disagree with:

I've learned that its pretty much illegal to defend yourself

No, it's not. You just better be SURE, and be prepared for your life to be turned upside down.

The responses you have gotten so far are excellent. I don't have anything particularly useful to add.

I really appreciate that you are a new gun owner, taking very seriously, the new world he or she has entered. It's great to see such a mature attitude. Don't psyche yourself out about it, and learn all you can.

David

[Skans]

Never stood and talked to the clerk at a store when there was a dispute about your bill?

Never backed off the gas pedal and let another driver have "your" spot in traffic, rather than continuing to jockey for position with an aggressive driver?

Never apologized to anyone, ever?

Somehow, I doubt it. We use de-escalation skills all the time, every day of our lives. Calling it something 'tactical' and thinking of it in the context of avoiding deadly force doesn't make it any less an everyday skill.

The decision to leave, lickety-split -- that's a good choice. When it's possible. Having a solid understanding of violence dynamics and a good grasp of de-escalation skills may be exactly what makes that escape possible.

Except for the above comments, I do not disagree with much of what you wrote in response to my short comment. My comment was a summary of what I would do, and yes, I have considered everything you raise and much more.

Now, to address your comment above. Disputes with a store clerk or dealing with an aggressive driver - neither of these, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE that I can possibly imagine would ever cause me to touch my concealed handgun. I have thought through the circumstances that I would even consider using my gun and dealing with a store clerk or an aggressive driver are off limits for me. Skills for dealing with difficult situations involving other people are a great thing to develop, can be very useful when dealing with an angry person - but that has nothing to do with using a gun! Or at least for me, it doesn't.

About the only time I'm going to consider using my handgun in public is if some stranger is quickly approaching me at an ATM machine, gas station, parking lot, or otherwise and it is obvious to me that they aren't just being friendly. Distance, speed of approach, profile of the person(s) approaching, circumstances, display of weapons or unwarranted aggression, and location will be the primary factors I will quickly consider to determine whether it is likely someone is getting ready to attack me. But, there are a number of other things that I couldn't possibly make a complete list of that factor into this decision as well. If I can simply leave, believe me, I will do so...lickety split! De-escalation is irrelevant. I don't plan on engaging the attacker in any in depth or meaningful discussion. If an attack is imminent I will deploy my firearm. I can't say what happens from there, because it will depend on what the attacker does.

[g.willikers]

It would seem that one way to de-escalate a situation is not to do anything to escalate it yourself.
The better the training, and the more confidence you have in your abilities to deal with situations, the more likely de-escalating is possible.

[Skans]

It would seem that one way to de-escalate a situation is not to do anything to escalate it yourself.

No. That's not de-escalation. That's avoidance or retreat. And, I've made it pretty clear that when dealing with irrationally angry people, I simply walk away. I'm just not going to get caught up in situations with angry or emotionally unstable people.

De-escalation is what trained professionals do when confronted with a difficult situation where someone is likely to lose their life or others may be injured or killed. It is using verbal speech to try and calm someone down so they don't hurt themselves or others. In other words, de-escalation is some form of affirmative response by you toward the angry, irrational person. I'm not a cop, not a psychologist, not a psychiatrist, nor trained in dealing with angry, irrational people. I do avoid them. I have had to avoid them. I don't engage in discussion with high, angry drunk or crazy people. It's a waste of valuable time that I could be using to get the heck away!

[g.willikers]

Once the situation gets past the point of de-escalation, there may be no walking a way, unless you want to get hit from behind.
A lot of times, escalation is as much the result of fear and over reaction as anger.
Then things kind of grow from there and sometimes very quickly.
I still vote for de-escalation, if possible, and preferably by not contributing to the aggression until necessary.
Of course, all this is assuming there's not a genuine predator involved.
Then everything is quite different.

[Skans]

I'm not going to be dumb about walking away from an angry irrational person; not going to just turn my back and start "walking" believing that someone can't attack me from behind. But, I will walk, run, or drive away if at all possible.

If you think you are skilled enough to talk down an angry person who is high, drunk or schizophrenic (bi-polar or otherwise), go for it. I'm not. These kind of people are too unpredictable for me and they don't think rationally. No good is going to come from conversing with them.

[g.willikers]

Talking and conversational skills might have nothing to do with how a situation can be de-escalated.
The point I was trying to make is don't escalate things oneself.
Just about every situation I've seen, (not counting those including the afore mentioned predator), involved a tit-for-tat escalation that finally turned violent.
All "normal" folks.

[g.willikers]

Almost forgot:
John Farnam, among others, said it best:
Don't go stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things.
And most unfortunate situations will be avoided.

[serf 'rett]

See the book recommended in Post #4/#5. Excellent detailed discussion of self defense.

[Skans]

Most unfortunate situations really can be avoided - I agree with that 100%. What sometimes can't be avoided is an ambush style attack. This is when a person or people seemingly come out of nowhere with the intent of doing you harm to get your car, wallet, complete some kind of gang initiation, etc. That's really the only reason I carry a gun. Pulling money out of ATM's especially at night, gas stations at night and parking lots at night can be dangerous. People hang around looking to score some money - mostly harmless beggars, but not always harmless.

I just think its crazy to think in terms of "de-escalation" when a real bad guy(s) (not just some hot-head) has a pre-planned agenda to make you his next Meth ticket.

[Brit]

There are very few problems heading your way, in a normal day, in normal activity's.

Using our normal activity's, on a normal day, for my Wife and I, place us, arising, not early (9 am) having breakfast, bed making, Lap Top use, and other mundane home style things. Going to shops/Supermarket, Gas up.

Living in Orlando, since Dec 2003, only one incident that could have ended badly. Even this was not normal in our neighborhood, two would be gang banger's followed my Wife around Publix, neither one had a basket or cart.

Me waiting outside, next to our Security Vehicle caused both of them to leave, in a hurry. Now that one incident is in its self was very unusual, no one else I have spoken to, has ever encountered this kind of possible? car jacking?

Any one else here can duplicate a similar event?

In approximately 4,200 days, one rather strange incident. With two people involved.

So how do you avoid being followed in a large Supermarket? Hard to do, but having a Cell phone is important. Scan, be observant, in this case, I was outside, reading. And armed. And my Wife is observant.

Seek out the Manager, point out the individuals, be armed.

Dr. Phillips is not a bad area? Bad chaps have transport too.

[pax]

Now, to address your comment above. Disputes with a store clerk or dealing with an aggressive driver - neither of these, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE that I can possibly imagine would ever cause me to touch my concealed handgun.

Okay. So your vision of a valid self defense scenario ALWAYS and IN EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE will involve the threat that comes out of nowhere, an "ambush type attack." That being the case, in your view, absolutely no soft skills (such as verbal de-escalation of angry others) could possibly help you avoid needing to save your life with the gun.

That's a rather limited view of how violence happens, and a very limited understanding of how deadly force attacks can play out.

pax

[Skans]

So your vision of a valid self defense scenario ALWAYS and IN EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE will involve the threat that comes out of nowhere, an "ambush type attack.

Yes, pretty much that's correct; or at least what I said is I will not be using my firearm with regard to an aggressive driver or dispute with a store clerk. I really don't know what kind of other circumstances you are alluding to. Domestic squabbles? Dispute between friends? Fight with business partner? Dispute with next door neighbor? I would never even consider using a gun in any of these situations! It's not even an option!

I carry a gun for one reason - to defend myself (or family who happens to be with me) from attacks by strangers who would seek to do me (or family member) serious physical harm for profit, gang initiation, or just for kicks and giggles. That's it. Yes, I am absolute about this - it is where I draw the line. And in these scenarios de-escalation is not an option.

I'm a married man. I am not going to be raped or beaten by my spouse. I have no "girlfriends" who might attack me for any reason. I have never used drugs and drink very little, and my friends don't use drugs and drink very little. I don't associate with anyone who would ever threaten me with violence. While, I am sure that there are other scenarios where life threatening violence can erupt between someone and a non-stranger; this simply does not apply to me.

Look Pax, you said it yourself - you need to know precisely under what circumstances you will deploy your weapon, shoot and possibly kill someone. Ultimately, everyone will have to draw that line for themselves, within reason. I have a very limited set of scenarios where I will deploy my weapon and shoot. Outside of a pre-planned attack by strangers, using a gun is not an option.

[Deaf Smith]

If someone tries to take one of my children

If one tries that I swear either they die or I die.

There won't be any in-between. Sparta goes to war.

Deaf