Less Molon Labe, More Reaching Out

gdcpony · April 7, 2018, 12:59 AM

To my fellow gun owners,

What follows is hard to type and will be harder to read. We all sit behind the key board or staring at a phone where we can speak our minds and, within reason, not worry about reprimand or having to carry through on our assertions.

I love stats and probabilities and the likelihood of something happening. At least usually I do. Not so much recently though. I have been looking at (and with a purely objective view) the position we as owners of firearms are in. Well, it comes out like this. WE ARE LOSING! And to make it worse, it is no longer bit by bit, but chunks by chunks.

You may sit there and say “how can that be when the ‘gun friendly’ party is in control of the federal government” but it is true. In fact, we are losing faster than prior to the election. We are losing in the forum of public opinion, the legislative arena, and the courts.

I looked and looked and have yet to see one major victory we have scored. Hearing conservation act? Nope. National reciprocity? Yeah right. The end to "Gun Free Zones" (which are killing Americans). I wish! I have found a couple minor little successful defenses, but no victories. Let me know if I am wrong. I would love to be proven wrong on this. What I do see are us losing hard on state and local levels. Age limits, bans, confiscations, new restrictions and registrations. Heller might as well as never happened with recent rulings backing the bans and restrictions in place. We have all read them, seen them, many are now experiencing them.

I sit on temporary orders to training in California. I had to leave behind several firearms that make me a felon here. And now there are more areas I must pray I don’t get orders to almost monthly. I wonder if my home state of Ohio will soon join the list. Will we soon be worried about whether attaching a collapsible stock to a lever gun makes it illegal? Do I need to register my Handi-Rifle as an “assault rifle” because it’s black?

A personal projection- take it or leave it- I worked out says we will see a AWB again in less than 10 years. Complete with Mag limits and with registration attached. Confiscation will be 3 years after that. “Assault Weapons” first of course, then those weapons (I am thinking many PRS guns fit this realm) with features that make them tactical in nature. Of course, this could be avoided if by then 60% of the states and 75% of the cities of 100k or more in population have already instituted such. That would delay it until the second term of the next president if things keep going the way they are.

Now you can sit behind your key board and cry “Molon Labe!” all you want. And I am sure some will resist. However, I know that unless organized on a national level and funded, it will be crushed isolated instances. Most will surrender them, move away to the ever-shrinking safe zones (yeah, I used that phrase intentionally), or hide them away. All of which make the grabbers happy. You do resist forcefully and the image of the “gun nut” is reinforced and you give them reason to further any more rules.

We have no media to speak of on our side. Look at the hit count of pro-gun and anti-gun videos. 10-1 against us in the ones I found on simple searches of Google and YouTube. Look at sponsors dropping anyone who stands against gun control. The grabbers also have foreign support as we are pretty much the thorn in the side of the UN and their push for gun control. BBC and such will always side with them. So we become further shoved into a corner with no voice to be heard. Even sporting goods stores and department stores are leaving our side for safer waters.

How many actually listened to the speeches the kids made during their march? It was hard, but I got about 75% of them. These are the voters of the future and they will vote. They will keep marching. They will convince their parents (or grown up buddies more or less) to vote as well. Their emotional lines will not be reasoned away with logic. Many of us have tried that approach and failed. The only real way to fight them is either to march ourselves (wonder what half a million AR carrying marchers going through the capital would cause DC to do?) or simply vote our side.

It does kind of baffle me though. Depending on where you read, as these numbers are hardly accurate in most surveys, there are over 100 million gun owners in the US. That is a low number of estimates. So that means we have 100 million votes. I am not talking the national votes. Those mean little in the whole scheme of things as we are fast learning. After all, the largest impact we are feeling and have felt has been regulations at the lower levels. So where are our votes in those elections? I have figured that local and state elections often see less than 20% of the voters out. Should sound good for us, except that we are showing up just as little. Chances to swarm the liberals that seek our rights are being squandered. A vote is a vote and a thousand or maybe a hundred (or even 10 in my town) can make a huge difference in a local election. It also has the benefit of being legal.

Still reading? Great! Maybe we can do something about this?

Now comes the roughest part. We shoot ourselves in the foot in sooo many ways! Not by being unsafe, but by being… well being us. We stand off and call them “libtards” and “Nazis” and any number of names. Well, ok that didn’t work in my school days to solve a problem, so I doubt it does now. It just ticks people off. If 1/3 of Americans own guns, then we have 2/3 to convince it’s not something to fear. We lose many to the other extreme, but we also lose every time we sink to that level. I am proud to say I have taken dozens of non-shooters to the range. And I helped them pick out a firearm later or even prior to. Since we are bound to hang out with nothing but like-minded people, we get little positive exposure to the “middle ground.” We need to change that person by person. If each shooter took one neutral person to the range and they bought a first gun we would double our numbers! And this says nothing about the fun you had doing it or the new friend you have made.

Think about the one time a complete newbie came up either online or in person and asked for advice. “No, man, don’t do that.” “You get what you pay for.” I personally don’t care if they have an Anderson lower with the cheapest Chinese handguard on their AR. We now have their support if they like it. A Savage Axis with the cheap factory optic? Hey, let’s make it work for you! Another shooter. A pawn shop Llama .45? Does it go bang? If so, lets hit the range.

Then you have our own divisions. Luckily, I am eclectic in my preferences of firearms. Levers, pumps, revolvers, bolts, semi’s. Love them all! However, like most I have my preferences. I don’t own a bump stock. Don’t see the point in a binary trigger either, but I know that banning those is just a step. It is a step towards stripping further our right (1934, 1968, 1986, 1994 ring any bells?) . So the guy who has a closet full of shotguns and no AR and doesn’t care if they are banned needs to understand that the 11-87 might be next.

A long read, and I apologize, but there needs to be a serious change. We won’t make changes with memes and key board machoism. I hope you still aren’t on the “It’ll never happen” team either. Because it can and it might. It takes a little effort to change things.

I ran into a family out collecting rocks (dad was an amateur geologist) last weekend while hunting ‘yotes. I could have ridden past them on my dirt bike and then they might have heard a shot echo down the canyons if I got one to come in. Instead, I stopped to let them know what I was up to so they would not be worried. They were definitely leaning towards the left you could tell as we talked. I had the HandiRifle over my shoulder and the daughter and mother feared this little youth size single shot rifle literally because it was black. I talked with them (luckily, I knew the geo-history of the area) and in half an hour the wife and daughter had sent a couple .243 rounds at the rocks on the mountain side. The dad said he would buy one if it weren’t so hard in CA since it looked like they had fun. Maybe he will, maybe he won’t, but at least a small victory was won in our favor. I think if we want to turn things around, we need more of these and less “Molon Labe.”

TJB101 · April 7, 2018, 05:07 AM

Great read and thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts on, ummm, screen. Great that you gave them a chance to try something new and shoot your 243. I heard many people get ‘turned’ by just going to the range once.

HiBC · April 7, 2018, 06:44 AM

I appreciate you taking the time to write.
Its good to be a positive representative of the shooting sports.
I'll agree its not productive to be divisive.

I have a slightly different take on what is happening.Sorry,I can't give a list of sources to back everything up...
The media just does not present a balanced view.
A whole lot of what is presented is campaign 2018 and 2020.
I've read that in many schools the "walkout crowd" is a small minority,over represented by the media.
Recent articles describe that only 10% of the folks at the march on Washington DC were student age,18or younger. The stats showed the "average" protestor as a 49 year old woman.
This made more sense when I read further. These student anti-gun marches are loosely organized by a group "Empower" which is a branch of the pink hat Women's March.
Just my opinion,but the folks who ought to be discouraged are the oneswhoonly had 10% show up.

Its certainly time to be active,but I'm not giving the media and the microphones the power to get me down. That is what gives them a victory.

NRA membership and donations are up. Do what you can.
I just bought another youth size single shot 22 because family young kids are getting into shooting via their Fathers and 4-H.

I can't say for sure,but I speculate that if Ted Cruz had become President he would be subject to the same forces trying to destroy him.Odds are,the same tragedies would have occurred.
I'm certain our RTKBA would not be safer had Hillary won.

I was a 12 year old paper boy just outside Chicago,Aurora,when JFKwas killed.
Then RFK,MLK.....The attempt on Reagan,the Brady bunch
As Rahm Emmanuel said,"Never let a crisis go to waste". They have been at it for 55 years.

This is a big,ugly,soulless machine exploiting the tragedy of kids for political gain.
Don't give it to them by becoming discouraged.

Be the Ambassador.
But yeah,Molon Labe!
The Constitution ,some argue,is just a piece of paper. Just a piece of paper written to preserve Individual Liberty and limit Government intrusion into our lives.
It is "Molon Labe" that puts steel into that paper. There is nothing else.
But I'm not talking violence or insurrection or anarchy.
Many public officials have sworn an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution and that oath was a joke.
Molon Labe is a Commitment to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies,foreign and domestic.

"We the People...."
If not us...Who?

buck460XVR · April 7, 2018, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Less Molon Labe, More Reaching Out

I agree....been saying this for years. Folks come to a gun forum and only need to state "shall not be infringed" "from my cold dead hands" or the infamous "Molon Labe" and the crowd stands up and cheers. The poster has gotten their assurance and feels good about themselves and gun ownership. Problem is, it's just preaching to the choir. No one on a gun forum needs to be convinced. It's those neutral to gun ownership that need to be convinced. They are the ones who's opinion sways in the wind and we have a chance at converting. Odds of converting a hard core anti is pretty much zero. Thankfully, like us, the anti's are a minority. Those Neutrals can help give us the majority or they can help the anti's. Those neutral have heard all the witty catch phrases and seen all the cutesy Facebook memes. We need realistic solutions and answers to their questions and we need to portray a positive image of gun ownership to them. Doing nuttin' is just that....doin' nuttin'. Holding up a sign stating "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns!" and hiding our head in the sand is not doing it. The latest Vermont legislation is evidence.

hdwhit · April 7, 2018, 04:39 PM

gdcpony, thank you for such a well-reasoned, well-presented post.

Pathfinder45 · April 7, 2018, 10:01 PM

So, Buck460XVR, what is the latest Vermont legislation? How about a link so that those of us that are 3,000 miles away can quickly find out what you are referring to?
Thank you.

ThomasT · April 7, 2018, 10:13 PM

I started not to read this post because it was long. In the end it was one of the better post I have read and I will reread it. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

LogicMan · April 7, 2018, 10:15 PM

It is a rough comparison, but IMO if the gun issue is like a galaxy, then the gun control proponents are like the visible stars. They are what everyone sees, and they get all the attention. To people who don't know the issue, the stars can give the impression that they are the galaxy. However, the majority of the galaxy itself, in terms of matter, actually is not the stars, but the dark matter. While at a distance, the galaxy can make it look like the stars are close together and thus their gravity hold them all together, they are actually massively far apart. It's just that the galaxy is so huge that from a distance, they look close together. But if you just use the gravity of the stars in the galaxy, the whole thing literally flies apart. So there is something else holding the galaxy together, and that is dark matter. We cannot see or directly detect the dark matter, but we know it is there because its presence is betrayed by the force of its gravity.

Gun rights people are like the dark matter in the gun galaxy. We are not really seen at all, but when election time comes, our presence is betrayed as it is not the gravity of the gun control "stars" that command the political will, rather it is the political gravity exerted by the gun rights side. Hopefully this remains the case.

Danoobie · April 7, 2018, 10:16 PM

Take a noob shooting. Bring the 22LR stuff, show them a good time, maybe a 9mm
pistol.

Then let the antis blather words to the same guy...

LogicMan · April 7, 2018, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danoobie

Take a noob shooting. Bring the 22LR stuff, show them a good time, maybe a 9mm
pistol.

Then let the antis blather words to the same guy...

IMO, that won't be enough, because a good anti can convince such a person to agree to certain "compromises" for their "fun sport." People need to be taught about the right itself and also about how the gun controller arguments are wrong, misleading, and often flat-out lies.

**Frank Ettin** · April 7, 2018, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicMan

..People need to be taught about the right itself and also about how the gun controller arguments are wrong, misleading, and often flat-out lies.

How's that been working out for you? Changed a lot of minds, have you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdcpony

To my fellow gun owners,....

An excellent post.

reteach · April 7, 2018, 11:39 PM

Thanks, gdcpony. You make some excellent points. We need to convince the non-gun owners that we are reasonable people, too. For example, we need to convince them that Ted Nugent does not speak for the majority of gun owners. From Newsweek:

Musician and NRA board member Ted Nugent likened Democrats, members of the media and others to “rabid coyotes” on Friday and suggested people should not wait to “get” their guns and “shoot” them on sight. … Keep your gun handy, and every time you see one, you shoot one.

No wonder so many of them are scared of us.

SonOfScubaDiver · April 8, 2018, 12:20 AM

Each one win one. That was the motto of a church I used to belong to. It also makes sense in regards to the gun debate.

Mr. Hill · April 8, 2018, 12:26 AM

Yeah, you try to talk to Hogg and let us know which guns you’re willing to surrender, what ammo you don’t need, and how all of the California gun control laws have helped disarm law abiding citizens and stripped them of liberty. You give an inch and they’ll take a mile. JMHO, but listening turns into giving away liberty.

LogicMan · April 8, 2018, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

How's that been working out for you? Changed a lot of minds, have you?

I didn't say it is easy. My point was that just taking a person shooting is not unto itself enough. That said, I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive. For every person you take shooting, that can also be an educational opportunity about the right to keep and bear arms. Not saying to just start lecturing and hectoring them but find ways to bring it up and answer some questions and correct misconceptions about things.

LogicMan · April 8, 2018, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reteach

Thanks, gdcpony. You make some excellent points. We need to convince the non-gun owners that we are reasonable people, too. For example, we need to convince them that Ted Nugent does not speak for the majority of gun owners. From Newsweek:

Musician and NRA board member Ted Nugent likened Democrats, members of the media and others to “rabid coyotes” on Friday and suggested people should not wait to “get” their guns and “shoot” them on sight. … Keep your gun handy, and every time you see one, you shoot one.

No wonder so many of them are scared of us.

The NRA should remove him from their board. No one who threatens death to anyone should be able to remain on the board of the NRA, IMO.

reteach · April 8, 2018, 03:06 AM

Quote:

The NRA should remove him from their board. No one who threatens death to anyone should be able to remain on the board of the NRA, IMO.

The rank and file membership should make that point to the board.

Quote:

How's that been working out for you? Changed a lot of minds, have you?

So we just give up? Let the other guys continue to have an unreasonable fear of guns and gun owners? I'm with LogicMan and gdcpony - we have to talk to folks.

By the way, LogicMan, your post about dark matter and stars makes perfect sense.

turkeestalker · April 8, 2018, 05:23 AM

LogicMan's post does make perfect sense and it's pretty accurate.

He's not far off about removing Ted Nugent from the board either when you're looking at it from a reasonable person's perspective.
We know that we are pretty reasonable people overall.
The problem is that our opposition is not typically made up of what we would call reasonable people.
The anti-gunners have a pretty high percentage of extremists at their forefront.
It's foolish to believe that extremism can be met head on without some of the same in kind.

**Tom Servo** · April 8, 2018, 07:16 AM

LogicMan, very interesting analogy.

As for gcdpony's post, excelsior. In peacetime, that's exactly what we should be doing.

Problem is, we're not in peacetime. The other side has put mannequin strings on schoolchildren and deployed them as rhetorical human shields. They've conned the media into openly decrying us and our rights. Heck, I passed a billboard on WI-29 that blatantly calls the NRA a domestic terror organization.

Yeah, we're not in peacetime. While changing a few hearts and minds is never a bad thing, our real priority right now is digging in and refusing to give an inch.

buck460XVR · April 8, 2018, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pathfinder45

So, Buck460XVR, what is the latest Vermont legislation? How about a link so that those of us that are 3,000 miles away can quickly find out what you are referring to?
Thank you.

Here tis.....

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/30/u...t-gun-law.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by LogicMan

People need to be taught about the right itself and also about how the gun controller arguments are wrong, misleading, and often flat-out lies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

How's that been working out for you? Changed a lot of minds, have you?

^^^I'm with Frank. Again, it's not the hard core anti's we have a chance with, it's those folks that in the past have been neutral to gun ownership. We have already chipped away at the edges with the old rhetorical "Shall not be infringed" arguments, but those still on the fence need something else. They've basically gotten sick of hearing the same ol' rhetoric and it's falling on deaf ears. On top of that, for every anti statement I've seen that is " wrong, misleading, and often flat-out lies", I've seen one from pro-gunners that is the same. We have to quit doing what we accuse the other side as doing if we want to present ourselves as legitimate. Overall, I see very few newly proposed realistic answers and solutions to violence using firearms from pro-gun folks, just the same ol' memes and quotes. Yes, we need to talk to folks, but we need good arguments directed at the whole congregation, not just the choir. We need to fight the battle we can win(those neutral to firearm ownership) and quit focusing on those anti extremists who will never see things our way. We don't need to defeat them, we just need to keep them in the minority.

turkeestalker · April 8, 2018, 11:35 AM

Hard to argue with that.
While we figure out how to reach out effectively, we need to stop giving in.

seeker_two · April 8, 2018, 12:01 PM

What works for me?

Make the argument personal. Forget the general statements and put it in term that relate to each individual person. Help them make the connection between the facts and their lives.

The ones who want to understand will understand. The ones who want to scream and threaten aren't worth your time.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Glenn E. Meyer · April 8, 2018, 01:14 PM

If I were king or in the NRA leadership, I would use some the money to hire quality PR consultants from many disciplines (psych, sociology, communications, whatever) to do some research into messages that move opinion of those not in the hard core choir. Different messages for different regions, races, political affiliations, religious backgrounds.

Also, in an electoral strategy that would convince the flip floppers (supposed gun folks) who are in the throws of moral panic.

Maybe they are doing that - but I don't see it in application. I've said too many times, their messaging in this period has been counterproductive (except maybe for getting a money bomb).

**Tom Servo** · April 8, 2018, 01:31 PM

Quote:

I've said too many times, their messaging in this period has been counterproductive

I've cringed at Loesch and Nugent more than a few times over the last two months, but I also wonder does it matter?

The lines are pretty clearly drawn, and most peoples' minds are made up on the issue. We're on the wrong side of history and progress. We're backwards luddites from flyover country who can't be trusted to know what's good for us. And when we contest their assertions that punishing the majority for the crimes of a small minority constitutes sane or useful policy, we're domestic terrorists.

Then the people who use this sort of rhetoric hue and cry, "why can't we have a conversation?"

(Of course, "conversation" is codespeak for appeasement.)

It pains me that our political discourse has degenerated to that point, but I fear we have to take the hand we've been given. At this point, we need to dig our heels in, support groups to fight this out in the backrooms of congress, and wait until such a time the RKBA isn't in such danger to soften the message.

All the time I've been in the gun culture, I've never seen a situation in which academia, the media, and politicians (even a former Supreme Court Justice) are all so openly and brazenly against the RKBA. This is far worse than 1994, and for now, it really is an us vs. them situation.

In The Ten Ring · April 8, 2018, 01:41 PM

One party does what they say they'll do, "pass healthcare reform" and the other side doesn't do what they say they'll do, "reform NFA." I've been a Republican since I was old enough to vote and this is something I have known since then.

My state is doing great on the personal gun rights side. Constitutional carry, carry in car, carry in woods, employer cannot fire someone for gun in car......politics are local my friends. My state does have a state gun owner lobby group which is very active...does your state have that?

Something else that is going on: discussions no longer take place between people but with fingers....since it is a fact most human communication is body language followed by voice tone, these "discussions" really aren't that and thus, have much less effect.

It will take competition in order to force media to be more open towards gun ownership. For some reason half the county that is pro gun ownership isn't interested in starting new media.

April 7, 2018, 12:59 AM	#1
gdcpony Member Join Date: March 2, 2010 Posts: 28	Less Molon Labe, More Reaching Out To my fellow gun owners, What follows is hard to type and will be harder to read. We all sit behind the key board or staring at a phone where we can speak our minds and, within reason, not worry about reprimand or having to carry through on our assertions. I love stats and probabilities and the likelihood of something happening. At least usually I do. Not so much recently though. I have been looking at (and with a purely objective view) the position we as owners of firearms are in. Well, it comes out like this. WE ARE LOSING! And to make it worse, it is no longer bit by bit, but chunks by chunks. You may sit there and say “how can that be when the ‘gun friendly’ party is in control of the federal government” but it is true. In fact, we are losing faster than prior to the election. We are losing in the forum of public opinion, the legislative arena, and the courts. I looked and looked and have yet to see one major victory we have scored. Hearing conservation act? Nope. National reciprocity? Yeah right. The end to "Gun Free Zones" (which are killing Americans). I wish! I have found a couple minor little successful defenses, but no victories. Let me know if I am wrong. I would love to be proven wrong on this. What I do see are us losing hard on state and local levels. Age limits, bans, confiscations, new restrictions and registrations. Heller might as well as never happened with recent rulings backing the bans and restrictions in place. We have all read them, seen them, many are now experiencing them. I sit on temporary orders to training in California. I had to leave behind several firearms that make me a felon here. And now there are more areas I must pray I don’t get orders to almost monthly. I wonder if my home state of Ohio will soon join the list. Will we soon be worried about whether attaching a collapsible stock to a lever gun makes it illegal? Do I need to register my Handi-Rifle as an “assault rifle” because it’s black? A personal projection- take it or leave it- I worked out says we will see a AWB again in less than 10 years. Complete with Mag limits and with registration attached. Confiscation will be 3 years after that. “Assault Weapons” first of course, then those weapons (I am thinking many PRS guns fit this realm) with features that make them tactical in nature. Of course, this could be avoided if by then 60% of the states and 75% of the cities of 100k or more in population have already instituted such. That would delay it until the second term of the next president if things keep going the way they are. Now you can sit behind your key board and cry “Molon Labe!” all you want. And I am sure some will resist. However, I know that unless organized on a national level and funded, it will be crushed isolated instances. Most will surrender them, move away to the ever-shrinking safe zones (yeah, I used that phrase intentionally), or hide them away. All of which make the grabbers happy. You do resist forcefully and the image of the “gun nut” is reinforced and you give them reason to further any more rules. We have no media to speak of on our side. Look at the hit count of pro-gun and anti-gun videos. 10-1 against us in the ones I found on simple searches of Google and YouTube. Look at sponsors dropping anyone who stands against gun control. The grabbers also have foreign support as we are pretty much the thorn in the side of the UN and their push for gun control. BBC and such will always side with them. So we become further shoved into a corner with no voice to be heard. Even sporting goods stores and department stores are leaving our side for safer waters. How many actually listened to the speeches the kids made during their march? It was hard, but I got about 75% of them. These are the voters of the future and they will vote. They will keep marching. They will convince their parents (or grown up buddies more or less) to vote as well. Their emotional lines will not be reasoned away with logic. Many of us have tried that approach and failed. The only real way to fight them is either to march ourselves (wonder what half a million AR carrying marchers going through the capital would cause DC to do?) or simply vote our side. It does kind of baffle me though. Depending on where you read, as these numbers are hardly accurate in most surveys, there are over 100 million gun owners in the US. That is a low number of estimates. So that means we have 100 million votes. I am not talking the national votes. Those mean little in the whole scheme of things as we are fast learning. After all, the largest impact we are feeling and have felt has been regulations at the lower levels. So where are our votes in those elections? I have figured that local and state elections often see less than 20% of the voters out. Should sound good for us, except that we are showing up just as little. Chances to swarm the liberals that seek our rights are being squandered. A vote is a vote and a thousand or maybe a hundred (or even 10 in my town) can make a huge difference in a local election. It also has the benefit of being legal. Still reading? Great! Maybe we can do something about this? Now comes the roughest part. We shoot ourselves in the foot in sooo many ways! Not by being unsafe, but by being… well being us. We stand off and call them “libtards” and “Nazis” and any number of names. Well, ok that didn’t work in my school days to solve a problem, so I doubt it does now. It just ticks people off. If 1/3 of Americans own guns, then we have 2/3 to convince it’s not something to fear. We lose many to the other extreme, but we also lose every time we sink to that level. I am proud to say I have taken dozens of non-shooters to the range. And I helped them pick out a firearm later or even prior to. Since we are bound to hang out with nothing but like-minded people, we get little positive exposure to the “middle ground.” We need to change that person by person. If each shooter took one neutral person to the range and they bought a first gun we would double our numbers! And this says nothing about the fun you had doing it or the new friend you have made. Think about the one time a complete newbie came up either online or in person and asked for advice. “No, man, don’t do that.” “You get what you pay for.” I personally don’t care if they have an Anderson lower with the cheapest Chinese handguard on their AR. We now have their support if they like it. A Savage Axis with the cheap factory optic? Hey, let’s make it work for you! Another shooter. A pawn shop Llama .45? Does it go bang? If so, lets hit the range. Then you have our own divisions. Luckily, I am eclectic in my preferences of firearms. Levers, pumps, revolvers, bolts, semi’s. Love them all! However, like most I have my preferences. I don’t own a bump stock. Don’t see the point in a binary trigger either, but I know that banning those is just a step. It is a step towards stripping further our right (1934, 1968, 1986, 1994 ring any bells?) . So the guy who has a closet full of shotguns and no AR and doesn’t care if they are banned needs to understand that the 11-87 might be next. A long read, and I apologize, but there needs to be a serious change. We won’t make changes with memes and key board machoism. I hope you still aren’t on the “It’ll never happen” team either. Because it can and it might. It takes a little effort to change things. I ran into a family out collecting rocks (dad was an amateur geologist) last weekend while hunting ‘yotes. I could have ridden past them on my dirt bike and then they might have heard a shot echo down the canyons if I got one to come in. Instead, I stopped to let them know what I was up to so they would not be worried. They were definitely leaning towards the left you could tell as we talked. I had the HandiRifle over my shoulder and the daughter and mother feared this little youth size single shot rifle literally because it was black. I talked with them (luckily, I knew the geo-history of the area) and in half an hour the wife and daughter had sent a couple .243 rounds at the rocks on the mountain side. The dad said he would buy one if it weren’t so hard in CA since it looked like they had fun. Maybe he will, maybe he won’t, but at least a small victory was won in our favor. I think if we want to turn things around, we need more of these and less “Molon Labe.”

April 7, 2018, 06:44 AM	#3
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	I appreciate you taking the time to write. Its good to be a positive representative of the shooting sports. I'll agree its not productive to be divisive. I have a slightly different take on what is happening.Sorry,I can't give a list of sources to back everything up... The media just does not present a balanced view. A whole lot of what is presented is campaign 2018 and 2020. I've read that in many schools the "walkout crowd" is a small minority,over represented by the media. Recent articles describe that only 10% of the folks at the march on Washington DC were student age,18or younger. The stats showed the "average" protestor as a 49 year old woman. This made more sense when I read further. These student anti-gun marches are loosely organized by a group "Empower" which is a branch of the pink hat Women's March. Just my opinion,but the folks who ought to be discouraged are the oneswhoonly had 10% show up. Its certainly time to be active,but I'm not giving the media and the microphones the power to get me down. That is what gives them a victory. NRA membership and donations are up. Do what you can. I just bought another youth size single shot 22 because family young kids are getting into shooting via their Fathers and 4-H. I can't say for sure,but I speculate that if Ted Cruz had become President he would be subject to the same forces trying to destroy him.Odds are,the same tragedies would have occurred. I'm certain our RTKBA would not be safer had Hillary won. I was a 12 year old paper boy just outside Chicago,Aurora,when JFKwas killed. Then RFK,MLK.....The attempt on Reagan,the Brady bunch As Rahm Emmanuel said,"Never let a crisis go to waste". They have been at it for 55 years. This is a big,ugly,soulless machine exploiting the tragedy of kids for political gain. Don't give it to them by becoming discouraged. Be the Ambassador. But yeah,Molon Labe! The Constitution ,some argue,is just a piece of paper. Just a piece of paper written to preserve Individual Liberty and limit Government intrusion into our lives. It is "Molon Labe" that puts steel into that paper. There is nothing else. But I'm not talking violence or insurrection or anarchy. Many public officials have sworn an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution and that oath was a joke. Molon Labe is a Commitment to uphold and defend the Constitution against all enemies,foreign and domestic. "We the People...." If not us...Who? Last edited by HiBC; April 7, 2018 at 07:05 AM.

April 8, 2018, 05:23 AM	#18
turkeestalker Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2015 Location: Cottleville, Missouri Posts: 1,115	LogicMan's post does make perfect sense and it's pretty accurate. He's not far off about removing Ted Nugent from the board either when you're looking at it from a reasonable person's perspective. We know that we are pretty reasonable people overall. The problem is that our opposition is not typically made up of what we would call reasonable people. The anti-gunners have a pretty high percentage of extremists at their forefront. It's foolish to believe that extremism can be met head on without some of the same in kind. __________________ Vegetarian... primitive word for lousy hunter!

April 8, 2018, 07:16 AM	#19
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	LogicMan, very interesting analogy. As for gcdpony's post, excelsior. In peacetime, that's exactly what we should be doing. Problem is, we're not in peacetime. The other side has put mannequin strings on schoolchildren and deployed them as rhetorical human shields. They've conned the media into openly decrying us and our rights. Heck, I passed a billboard on WI-29 that blatantly calls the NRA a domestic terror organization. Yeah, we're not in peacetime. While changing a few hearts and minds is never a bad thing, our real priority right now is digging in and refusing to give an inch. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

April 8, 2018, 11:35 AM	#21
turkeestalker Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2015 Location: Cottleville, Missouri Posts: 1,115	Hard to argue with that. While we figure out how to reach out effectively, we need to stop giving in. __________________ Vegetarian... primitive word for lousy hunter!

April 7, 2018, 05:07 AM	#2
TJB101 Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2017 Posts: 498	Great read and thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts on, ummm, screen. Great that you gave them a chance to try something new and shoot your 243. I heard many people get ‘turned’ by just going to the range once.

April 7, 2018, 04:39 PM	#5
hdwhit Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2017 Posts: 1,011	gdcpony, thank you for such a well-reasoned, well-presented post.

April 7, 2018, 10:01 PM	#6
Pathfinder45 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2008 Posts: 3,224	So, Buck460XVR, what is the latest Vermont legislation? How about a link so that those of us that are 3,000 miles away can quickly find out what you are referring to? Thank you.

April 7, 2018, 10:13 PM	#7
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	I started not to read this post because it was long. In the end it was one of the better post I have read and I will reread it. Thanks for taking the time to post it.

April 7, 2018, 10:15 PM	#8
LogicMan Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2013 Posts: 280	It is a rough comparison, but IMO if the gun issue is like a galaxy, then the gun control proponents are like the visible stars. They are what everyone sees, and they get all the attention. To people who don't know the issue, the stars can give the impression that they *are* the galaxy. However, the majority of the galaxy itself, in terms of matter, actually is not the stars, but the dark matter. While at a distance, the galaxy can make it look like the stars are close together and thus their gravity hold them all together, they are actually massively far apart. It's just that the galaxy is so huge that from a distance, they look close together. But if you just use the gravity of the stars in the galaxy, the whole thing literally flies apart. So there is something else holding the galaxy together, and that is dark matter. We cannot see or directly detect the dark matter, but we know it is there because its presence is betrayed by the force of its gravity. Gun rights people are like the dark matter in the gun galaxy. We are not really seen at all, but when election time comes, our presence is betrayed as it is not the gravity of the gun control "stars" that command the political will, rather it is the political gravity exerted by the gun rights side. Hopefully this remains the case.

April 7, 2018, 10:16 PM	#9
Danoobie Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2017 Posts: 351	Take a noob shooting. Bring the 22LR stuff, show them a good time, maybe a 9mm pistol. Then let the antis blather words to the same guy...

April 7, 2018, 11:39 PM	#12
reteach Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2016 Location: Texas Posts: 378	Thanks, gdcpony. You make some excellent points. We need to convince the non-gun owners that we are reasonable people, too. For example, we need to convince them that Ted Nugent does not speak for the majority of gun owners. From Newsweek: Musician and NRA board member Ted Nugent likened Democrats, members of the media and others to “rabid coyotes” on Friday and suggested people should not wait to “get” their guns and “shoot” them on sight. … Keep your gun handy, and every time you see one, you shoot one. No wonder so many of them are scared of us.

April 8, 2018, 12:20 AM	#13
SonOfScubaDiver Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2017 Posts: 391	Each one win one. That was the motto of a church I used to belong to. It also makes sense in regards to the gun debate.

April 8, 2018, 12:26 AM	#14
Mr. Hill Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2015 Posts: 384	Yeah, you try to talk to Hogg and let us know which guns you’re willing to surrender, what ammo you don’t need, and how all of the California gun control laws have helped disarm law abiding citizens and stripped them of liberty. You give an inch and they’ll take a mile. JMHO, but listening turns into giving away liberty.

April 8, 2018, 12:01 PM	#22
seeker_two Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2002 Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX) Posts: 2,169	What works for me? Make the argument personal. Forget the general statements and put it in term that relate to each individual person. Help them make the connection between the facts and their lives. The ones who want to understand will understand. The ones who want to scream and threaten aren't worth your time. Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

April 8, 2018, 01:14 PM	#23
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	If I were king or in the NRA leadership, I would use some the money to hire quality PR consultants from many disciplines (psych, sociology, communications, whatever) to do some research into messages that move opinion of those not in the hard core choir. Different messages for different regions, races, political affiliations, religious backgrounds. Also, in an electoral strategy that would convince the flip floppers (supposed gun folks) who are in the throws of moral panic. Maybe they are doing that - but I don't see it in application. I've said too many times, their messaging in this period has been counterproductive (except maybe for getting a money bomb). __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

April 8, 2018, 01:41 PM	#25
In The Ten Ring Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2018 Posts: 380	One party does what they say they'll do, "pass healthcare reform" and the other side doesn't do what they say they'll do, "reform NFA." I've been a Republican since I was old enough to vote and this is something I have known since then. My state is doing great on the personal gun rights side. Constitutional carry, carry in car, carry in woods, employer cannot fire someone for gun in car......politics are local my friends. My state does have a state gun owner lobby group which is very active...does your state have that? Something else that is going on: discussions no longer take place between people but with fingers....since it is a fact most human communication is body language followed by voice tone, these "discussions" really aren't that and thus, have much less effect. It will take competition in order to force media to be more open towards gun ownership. For some reason half the county that is pro gun ownership isn't interested in starting new media.