AR: Why Not a Forward Assist?

[Unconventional]

Well, maybe if you had used a forward assist somewhere in there...

[Jim567]

Back in "76" I used it a time or two when firing blanks.

Other than that I never needed one, my S&W Sport did not have a forward assist.

Then again, I have never gone Rambo on a M-16 or an AR-15.

[LBussy]

Originally Posted by Jim567

Back in "76" I used it a time or two when firing blanks.

That's a good point ... I can't remember a training exercise firing blanks where I didn't have to use the FA. Of course that's not done a lot as a civilian.

[michaelc246]

I like to have it. I've seen newer shooters ride the bolt forward by holding the charging handle and have had to use it. And I've also used it after doing press checks when my rifle is a little dirty. That said, I understand why some don't really have a need for it.

[Duke of Lawn Chair]

I have an ArmaLite AR-10A4 B that doesn't have one. I just got a new Bolt Carrier Group. It's a little stiff yet out of the box. If I load more than one round in the magazine it won't go into battery. Have to mortar the BCG back sometimes. Wish I had that forward assist. I'm sure this BCG will work itself out/break in but in the interim it's a PITA.

Besides it doubles as a bottle opener if you ever should need one and be caught with out one.

[Rangerrich99]

One of my AR-15s sole reason for existence is varmint/small game hunting, and as such there is just no need for an FA. It does have one (came stock with the rifle), but I'm 100% certain I've never used it.

I have another that serves almost entirely as a "plinker/teach my niece and nephew how to shoot gun" that I'm pretty sure I've never touched the FA on, so I probably could've done without one there as well. For defensive carbine classes we have discussed and used the FA, but outside of that I don't think I've used it much.

My theory is that for many, if not most, of the casual AR-15 shooters/owners the FA isn't necessary. Heck, most of the guys I know that own an AR don't have a clue what the FA is for anyway.

[Double Naught Spy]

To paraphrase Clint Smith,

I don’t want to shoot something that doesn’t fit in the chamber, “normally”.

Go to YouTube and lookup Thunder Ranch.

Went to TR Texas numerous times. Learned lots. Lots other stuff from other instructors as well. The one thing that came across when dealing with gurus is that they all aren't right all the time. They have their own biases and baggage.

I have hunted with some guys who didn't have a forward assist. Rounds don't always feed properly for reasons other than fit. That is the bias of Smith's statement. He has assumed there is only one reason the FA would be needed and that was because the round didn't fit in the chamber.

Ever tried to quietly charge an AR15 without a FA?

Ever had a round fail to fully go into battery because the gun was dirty? I know, I know, this won't happen on a properly maintained gun, but there are times when you don't have the opportunity to stop and properly maintain the gun when you need it to go BANG now.

It is one of those things you don't need until you need it and then it is really handy and very timely.

[tangolima]

The man on AR podcast said the forward assist had no use. The other rifles didn't have it. M1 garand didn't have it. M14 didn't have it. Why did the AR have to have it?

I have hardly listened to those guys since then.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[bamaranger]

What I have seen regularly is the FA is seen as some sort of "jam fixer" by folks who have not been trained in the AR regards clearing failures. And I believe I am safe in saying that many AR's these days are in the hands of folks who are not trained.

The rifle fails in some fashion, and then......dork, dork, dork.....let's fool with this thing, 'cause it's to fix jams, right?

[44 AMP]

The man on AR podcast said the forward assist had no use. The other rifles didn't have it. M1 garand didn't have it. M14 didn't have it. Why did the AR have to have it?

I've never listened to those guys so I can't tell you if they're full of it, or not, but that question does come up fairly often. And the reason is simple, the AR charging handle only works in one direction.

The oprod handles on the M1 and M14 work in both directions, and are generously proportioned and ergonomically placed so significant force can be applied in both directions at need.

The AR design simply cannot do this. Additionally, the AR charging handle is poorly sized and placed to allow for a really good "pull" in the direction it does work in.

For all those vets who had a forward assist save their butts, I can understand the affection for it. In my personal case, the FA didn't save my butt (fortunately someone else did), it caused a worse jam, one that could not be cleared by the leverage available with the charging handle.

So, I have mixed feeling about it. Really HATE the style with the teardrop handle. Snagged on everything. The round knob is much, much better in that regard.

My biggest issue with the FA is that there is no way to tell, when using it will cure the problem, or make it worse. I've had it do both.

I do note that the larger AR rifles (AR 10 variants) don't have a forward assist. I've been told that the larger mass of the moving parts means the bolt failing to go into battery almost never happens. sound good, anyway.

I think the real reason is in part the larger heavier moving parts, but the real reason is that they AR-10 rifles don't use the GI upper which the AR-15 does.

I know about the mechanics of the rifles (was a small arms repairman 75-78) and I know about the ammo issues, and the cleaning issues in Viet Nam. Also know about crawling through the mud and slime. I also know that today AR rifles are a different world from those they issued in the 60 & 70s.

I don't care if the gun has a forward assist, or not. I'm not going to bother using it, and since I'm never going to be on the sharp end, again, I won't need to.

As for those who have a need to quietly chamber a round, I'd say you have a need to be looking for a different rifle. Or a different approach...
just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it...

[tangolima]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I've never listened to those guys so I can't tell you if they're full of it, or not, but that question does come up fairly often. And the reason is simple, the AR charging handle only works in one direction.

The oprod handles on the M1 and M14 work in both directions, and are generously proportioned and ergonomically placed so significant force can be applied in both directions at need.

The AR design simply cannot do this. Additionally, the AR charging handle is poorly sized and placed to allow for a really good "pull" in the direction it does work in.

The forward assist has no use because m1 doesn't have one. That is their reasoning against the device. They clearly don't know how things work in a rifle. Just as you explains, of course a m1 doesn't need a forward assist. That's why I stopped listening to them.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[JeepHammer]

I don't need 4 wheel drive in my Jeep because Prius doesn't have 4 wheel drive....

[stagpanther]

About as useful as a condom aboard Air Force One

[Double Naught Spy]

As for those who have a need to quietly chamber a round, I'd say you have a need to be looking for a different rifle. Or a different approach...
just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it...

Aside from the devaluative self assessment of your comment, I would be intrigued to know the reasoning behind it. Why should one look for another rifle when this will do what is need and will quietly chamber a round with the standard FA feature? The AR15 is a common hunting platform and the need to be quiet is a common feature of hunting.

[stagpanther]

Aside from the devaluative self assessment of your comment, I would be intrigued to know the reasoning behind it. Why should one look for another rifle when this will do what is need and will quietly chamber a round with the standard FA feature? The AR15 is a common hunting platform and the need to be quiet is a common feature of hunting.

I understand this--to a degree--but closing the bolt on an AR--whatever method is used, is never going to be a silent affair--and it will always have the attendant risk that the cartridge is not fully into battery. If you want single shot hand-feed bolt gun on anything approaching a consistent basis--why not get one that is properly constructed for that use? I mean it's almost like arguing against auto feed.

[anymanusa]

Wow I can't believe some of the garbage arguments being made against having a forward assist.

"Ruins symmetry"? -CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-, lol.

"I don't want a round that doesn't naturally fit in the chamber" ? It ain't always about the round.

[lamarw]

I stated it in my earlier thread, and I will repeat it again here. The firearm(s) in question is available with or without the forward assist. Get what you like or floats your boat.

We do not need to camp here and be derogatory toward each other based upon personal preferences. We have a choice.

[SPEMack618]

I'm in the religous category of not wanting a forward assist. I saw an ROTC Nursing Cadet nearly blow off her hand while running the range one day because she judicially used the FA. If the round ain't chambering normally, you got bigger issues.

[44 AMP]

The AR15 is a common hunting platform and the need to be quiet is a common feature of hunting.

Oh, no argument there, my reasoning has to do with the degree of quiet, and the operation of mechanisms. NO semi auto is designed to be loaded absolutely silently. Trying to do so, often leads to malfunctions. Ride the slide (pistol) or ease the bolt forward (rifles) and there is a definite risk of things not working right.

Yes, the forward assist does allow you to ensure the bolt is fully shut (when it works) but there is always a click, maybe a couple. This is not necessarily a game spooker, but it could be. Yes, there are other designs that also produce a small click when cocking the hammer, or taking off the safety. (and unless you chamber that round in the AR with the safety off, then you have two clicks..)

There are designs that do allow a round to be chambered in silence. However, they may not have other features you desire. There's no free lunch. IF being as quiet as possible is your main concern, then there are better designs for than the AR (or any semi and several manually operated repeaters as well)

So, considering a different rifle, as the best tool for the job, (being silent) is, I think, a reasonable thing. OR considering changing your manner of "operation", such as loading the chamber before game is within hearing distance. Simply doing that removes worry about spooking game from the mechanical sound of chambering, later. Though it does have some safety considerations an empty chamber does not. Again, no free lunch.

Likewise, if you need to be as quiet as possible, I'd recommend not wearing nylon anything. That "zweep zweep" sound when nylon rubs on anything (including itself) is another one of those "not found in nature" sounds, like a metal on metal click or clink, that can spook game, under the right conditions.

There's no single design that does every possible thing to the greatest degree possible. This is not a criticism of the AR, or any other design, its a recognition that rifle requirements can be so vastly diverse no single design is capable of doing it all to the best possible degree.

[Sharkbite]

Ive used M4’s around the world, both in the Mil and as a contractor. The only use i have for a F/A is to ensure the gun is in battery AFTER a press check. If a round does not chamber on loading, that round is ejected not beat into the chamber.

Now, you dont need a F/A to do the above...a thumb pushing against the scallop in the BG will accomplish the same thing. The F/A just makes it easier.

[shaunpain]

It's amazing to me the passion people can have about something as trivial as a forward assist! I personally require them on my personal rifles as they are the milspec (I'm not interested in losing features) and I use them quite a bit actually. I am a habitual chamber checker as I have many guns in various loaded states and am never sure what condition they are in.

I have also never seen a dust cover bend, but then again who cares? It's the cheapest part on the whole rifle.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[rickyrick]

It’s not a negative thing to have one, I don’t need it, but it’s not a deal breaker if a recreational AR doesn’t have one for me. But someone who carries one professionally probably should.



I mean, I’m not going to run and gun with this beastie anyways

[stagpanther]

It’s not a negative thing to have one, I don’t need it, but it’s not a deal breaker if a recreational AR doesn’t have one for me. But someone who carries one professionally probably should.

Again--what seems to me a balanced and reasonable response IMHO.

[Erno86]

A Vietnam vet (on another forum)...complained about the FA protrusion digging into his back, when he had it slung over his shoulder.

A gunsmith for the Army (on another forum)...warned that if the roll pin for the FA breaks (and it has broken before at other times), it will jam the gun and will need gunsmith work to fix the problem.

[RC20]

I know JH doesn't think I should comment, but as noted

it caused a worse jam, one that could not be cleared by the leverage available with the charging handle.

It might save you, it might make your situation worse.

Usually you figure out how often the save works (seat belts) and how often they are worse (stuck in a rig and unable to release) and come down on the side of data..