practicing advancing fire

Come and take it. · July 4, 2011, 12:04 PM

Dont know what the proper terminology is. Basically slowly advancing towards a target while firing with weapon, aimed rapid fire.

What distance to start the exercise?

Size of practice target?

moose_nukelz · July 4, 2011, 12:26 PM

Here is a quick version of how I have learned it.

Start at the 10 yard line and slowly walk to the 3 yard line. Your upper body shooting position should not be any different that when you are stationary shooting. Focus on keeping your sights center mass of your target. Just remember to squat as you walk so your legs absorb the shock instead of trying to track with your sights. You will know when you are doing it right because you will feel very goofy at first and your legs will start to burn.

You can practice this at home, just walk down the hall and try keeping your sights fixed on something.
Here is us a few weeks ago out at the range - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkiwQ3Eot-o

Navy joe · July 4, 2011, 01:05 PM

I personally don't get slow movement while firing. Shooting on the move is a valuable game and real world skill, but if you need to be moving wouldn't hauling butt better serve you? Get the hits you need to while doing so. If you need precise aiming perhaps you should consider a large bullet resistant object while you take the time you need to do such.

C0untZer0 · July 4, 2011, 01:14 PM

Riot control... with less than lethal munitions

AK103K · July 4, 2011, 01:22 PM

I start at around 10-15 yards and move pretty quick. Not at a run, but a fast walking pace. I shoot at "people" targets, and usually vary the drill from one to three. I also vary how I move, from straight on, to diagonal and sort of a zig zag variation of the two, depending on how the targets are placed.

oldkim · July 4, 2011, 02:07 PM

Okay, For those that don't shoot on the move... well that's like playing Wii baseball or bowling but never actually really doing it. You are going through with the movements but you don't get the true feel of weight and recoil and all the hand/eye plus moving with a real gun.

So, you can practice at home with an unloaded firearm or even better with an airsoft gun but there is truly nothing like actually doing it.

So to those that train (as above)... you might want to actually do it. I know it can be very difficult to find a range (just depends on what is available near you).

Shoot on the move has been my "niche" here in the Seattle area. Teaching shooters to shoot on the move is like re-teaching shooting...

The basics are simple until you have to do them. Take it slow, get into the tempo and rhythm of moving and shooting. Figure out what feels right for you - half steps or side or overlapping or just walk. This depends on what direction and how fast you want to go.

So back on topic:
Best way to practice: is use 8" steel targets at 10-20 yards. (10 yards is the safe distance for steel plates)

It all depends on what is available to you. What range, how it's setup, how you can do (shoot and move, use holster, etc).

Not everyone has access to steel plates... If you can then use clay targets on the berm and shoot them from various distances while shooting on the move...

Warning to all: Once you start shooting on the move - you may never look at a regular range the same.

If you are in the Seattle area. Look me up (see link below on my signature line).

threegun · July 4, 2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

I personally don't get slow movement while firing. Shooting on the move is a valuable game and real world skill, but if you need to be moving wouldn't hauling butt better serve you? Get the hits you need to while doing so. If you need precise aiming perhaps you should consider a large bullet resistant object while you take the time you need to do such.

Exactly! If forward movement is vital enough to survival to cause you to move then why settle for a slow walk?

For me advancing while shooting has very few applications and most are only called for if I am ahead in the reactionary curve and by advancing I close the distance and eliminate the threat before he can come up shooting.

In every case I can think, advancing with speed would be better.

BlackFeather · July 4, 2011, 03:28 PM

I don't think it's necessarily moving toward your opponent and constantly firing but moving forward and being able to fire accurately if a target presents itself. They may be behind cover and keeping their head down until they are in your sights makes sense as well. Walk before you run.

threegun · July 4, 2011, 04:33 PM

If I am not LE why advance on a barricaded or covered opponent? Unless the rarest of occasions that you are exposed without hope of getting to cover that is.

AK103K · July 4, 2011, 04:59 PM

Any trick you can pull out of your bag is a good thing. Having the experience and knowing you can is also a good thing. Never having to use any of it is an even better thing, but you know how that can go.

Anything you do and learn in practice, above shooting tight little groups at your leisure at the range, is going to put you in a better place confidence and skill wise. Being able to shoot on the move is one of the better ones.

Sleuth · July 4, 2011, 05:33 PM

To me, the priorities in shooting and moving are:
1. Move to the side (train to move to either side)
2. Move to the rear (preferably at an angle)
3. Move forward only if the best cover or best opportunity to end the fight is forward.

When I first started, it was fire one shot each time a foot hit the ground. I have reached the point that (on a man sized, or 1/2 man sized target), I run out of ammo after 3-4 steps, even with a high cap.
Afetr all, if I have both a target that needs shooting and ammo, the target gets the ammo as fast as possible.

BlackFeather · July 4, 2011, 05:41 PM

Yes, LEOs and Military should have more use for such training, but if it comes down to searching your house and you need to move forward, practice helps. For all you know it could be a target popping out while you're moving. This is a possibility in my case, especially with my neighbors heroine addicted sons...

Sleuth, no offense, but I'd be far more worried about where the bullet was striking than how many got there. What size group are we talking?

Handgun or Rifle?

smince · July 4, 2011, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Sleuth, no offense, but I'd be far more worried about where the bullet was striking than how many got there. What size group are we talking?

No offense to you, Blackfeather. But rounds in the target=blood coming out. Regardless of where, it is a good thing.

I'm a firm believer in moving offline (whatever direction and and angle the terrain allows) and firing while doing so. If I'm moving, I'm a more difficult target for the BG to hit, while simultaneously putting hits on him.

Can I shoot one-hole groups at 7yds while moving offline? No. But by doing so, his loop is being continually reset, both by the hits he takes and trying to track a moving target.

Try it in an FOF scenario sometime.

Sleuth · July 4, 2011, 05:59 PM

Blackfeather, all hits inside about a 6" circle from 15 yards in, all centered in the upper chest on a life sized target.

(Note - I have my own range here on the ranch, so I get to practice al lot!)

BlackFeather · July 4, 2011, 06:08 PM

Smince, I agree. Placement on an open target doesn't matter as long as it's a hit. But I'd be far more worried about shooting a small opening while moving up to cover. So, no offense taken.

Sleuth, lucky you. I get as much practice in as I can when I can. Unfortunately it's been little in the last year. Six inches is a good opening. Have you tried putting something between you and the target to shoot through? Not in the exact middle but inches away from the target. Just something I haven't been able to try, but since you have your own range... lol

Come and take it. · July 4, 2011, 07:28 PM

Thanks for the advice.

smince · July 4, 2011, 08:21 PM

I've been shooting 'pro-active' (re-Modern Technique) for most of my CCW life, until 2007.

Since then, I've been practicing for close-range, in-your-face-type scenarios like the kind that will more likely happen to me in real life.

So close I or my attacker won't have time to be behind or try to get behind cover. That's why moving off the "X" is such important skill to have, and being able to shoot and hit while doing it is even more important.

kraigwy · July 4, 2011, 09:43 PM

There is more to "shooting while moving" (or advancing) then Self Defense, Military & LE.

There are several types of competition action pistol matches out there, Run 'N Gun, ISPA, ICORE, 3 & Multi Gun, etc etc.

If one wishes to learn "shooting while moving it doesn't have to be do to being a ninja or commie killer.

Anyway, the best guide I've found out there for this type of shooting is the AMU/CMP "Close Quarter Marksmanship" DVD, $6.95 from the CMP E-Store.

It covers; Set Up, 7 Principles of High Performance Shooting, Weapons Presentation, Accuracy, Targets, The Reload, The Mental Game, Range Drills, The Ready Up Drill, Recoil Management, Multiple Threat Engagements, Shooting on
the Move, Changing Gears Drills, Alternate Position, Weapons Transition & Malfunctions.

https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catal...4=&note5=&max=

egor20 · July 4, 2011, 09:54 PM

I carry CCW to protect my wife (whom also carries), myself and other family members, There is no way I'm advancing to fire.

My primary mission is to protect them, not to get into a firefight.

Sorry just my .02 cents

Come and take it. · July 5, 2011, 12:43 AM

in principle

if we expect help to come soon and time is on our side

It would seem very logical to hold onto our corner of the house and let the intruder have the kitchen and living room.

but if no help is coming than we are fixed and the enemy is mobile.The enemy has time on his side and He can take that time to think of the best way to get into your defences.

If you train to be more aggressive in your tactics than you can prevent yourself from becoming fixed, force your enemies mind to guess.

At least that is my take on it.

threegun · July 5, 2011, 07:51 AM

Quote:

No offense to you, Blackfeather. But rounds in the target=blood coming out. Regardless of where, it is a good thing.

I'm a firm believer in moving offline (whatever direction and and angle the terrain allows) and firing while doing so. If I'm moving, I'm a more difficult target for the BG to hit, while simultaneously putting hits on him.

Can I shoot one-hole groups at 7yds while moving offline? No. But by doing so, his loop is being continually reset, both by the hits he takes and trying to track a moving target.

Can't say it better.

threegun · July 5, 2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

I carry CCW to protect my wife (whom also carries), myself and other family members, There is no way I'm advancing to fire.

My primary mission is to protect them, not to get into a firefight.

Sorry just my .02 cents

Most of us also have a spouse and family to protect. If you are forced to defend yourself or them with your firearm its called a gunfight. In a gunfight the prime directive is to survive uninjured. If advancing increases your chances of survival why would you not do so?

egor20 · July 5, 2011, 09:20 AM

Quote:

If advancing increases your chances of survival why would you not do so?

Real simple, I've been in combat once and a knife fight once, both times I've had to advance, I'm a civilian horse farmer now, I'm putting my wife/family member between ermmmm. BEHIND me and the BG and backing out of the situation.

Quote:

Threeguns
BTW you said you were gonna put your family between you and the badguy..........sounds kinda like a human shield LOL. I knew what you meant.

Edited to make me not look like a total SOB

moose_nukelz · July 5, 2011, 09:29 AM

Quote:

I personally don't get slow movement while firing. Shooting on the move is a valuable game and real world skill, but if you need to be moving wouldn't hauling butt better serve you? Get the hits you need to while doing so. If you need precise aiming perhaps you should consider a large bullet resistant object while you take the time you need to do such.

Starting slow and doing it correctly builds proper muscle memory and correct fundamentals. Have to crawl before you walk.

threegun · July 5, 2011, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Real simple, I've been in combat once and a knife fight once, both times I've had to advance, I'm a civilian horse farmer now, I'm putting my wife/family member between me and the BG and backing out of the situation.

If it were that simple there would be no need for other tactics. If backing out is the tactic that gives you the best chance of surviving uninjured then by all means do so however if backing out is more likely to get you injured than moving laterally or advancing why not do so?

Why buck the odds?

BTW you said you were gonna put your family between you and the badguy..........sounds kinda like a human shield LOL. I knew what you meant.

July 4, 2011, 12:04 PM	#1
Come and take it. Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 999	practicing advancing fire Dont know what the proper terminology is. Basically slowly advancing towards a target while firing with weapon, aimed rapid fire. What distance to start the exercise? Size of practice target?

July 4, 2011, 12:26 PM	#2
moose_nukelz Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2011 Posts: 125	Moving and shooting drills Here is a quick version of how I have learned it. Start at the 10 yard line and slowly walk to the 3 yard line. Your upper body shooting position should not be any different that when you are stationary shooting. Focus on keeping your sights center mass of your target. Just remember to squat as you walk so your legs absorb the shock instead of trying to track with your sights. You will know when you are doing it right because you will feel very goofy at first and your legs will start to burn. You can practice this at home, just walk down the hall and try keeping your sights fixed on something. Here is us a few weeks ago out at the range - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkiwQ3Eot-o __________________ Bust em Last edited by moose_nukelz; July 4, 2011 at 12:56 PM.

July 4, 2011, 01:05 PM	#3
Navy joe Senior Member Join Date: January 28, 2001 Location: VA, USA Posts: 1,804	I personally don't get slow movement while firing. Shooting on the move is a valuable game and real world skill, but if you need to be moving wouldn't hauling butt better serve you? Get the hits you need to while doing so. If you need precise aiming perhaps you should consider a large bullet resistant object while you take the time you need to do such. __________________ FY47012

July 4, 2011, 02:07 PM	#6
oldkim Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2008 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 462	Shoot on the move... something dear to me... Okay, For those that don't shoot on the move... well that's like playing Wii baseball or bowling but never actually really doing it. You are going through with the movements but you don't get the true feel of weight and recoil and all the hand/eye plus moving with a real gun. So, you can practice at home with an unloaded firearm or even better with an airsoft gun but there is truly nothing like actually doing it. So to those that train (as above)... you might want to actually do it. I know it can be very difficult to find a range (just depends on what is available near you). Shoot on the move has been my "niche" here in the Seattle area. Teaching shooters to shoot on the move is like re-teaching shooting... The basics are simple until you have to do them. Take it slow, get into the tempo and rhythm of moving and shooting. Figure out what feels right for you - half steps or side or overlapping or just walk. This depends on what direction and how fast you want to go. So back on topic: Best way to practice: is use 8" steel targets at 10-20 yards. (10 yards is the safe distance for steel plates) It all depends on what is available to you. What range, how it's setup, how you can do (shoot and move, use holster, etc). Not everyone has access to steel plates... If you can then use clay targets on the berm and shoot them from various distances while shooting on the move... Warning to all: Once you start shooting on the move - you may never look at a regular range the same. If you are in the Seattle area. Look me up (see link below on my signature line). __________________ "Shoot Safetly, Shoot Often and Share Your Sport." Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA Check out my new website: www.shootonthemove.org

July 4, 2011, 03:28 PM	#8
BlackFeather Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: West Coast Posts: 450	I don't think it's necessarily moving toward your opponent and constantly firing but moving forward and being able to fire accurately if a target presents itself. They may be behind cover and keeping their head down until they are in your sights makes sense as well. Walk before you run. __________________ "Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi [Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]

July 4, 2011, 01:14 PM	#4
C0untZer0 Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2011 Location: Illinois Posts: 4,555	Riot control... with less than lethal munitions

July 4, 2011, 01:22 PM	#5
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	I start at around 10-15 yards and move pretty quick. Not at a run, but a fast walking pace. I shoot at "people" targets, and usually vary the drill from one to three. I also vary how I move, from straight on, to diagonal and sort of a zig zag variation of the two, depending on how the targets are placed.

July 4, 2011, 04:33 PM	#9
threegun Junior member Join Date: March 1, 2006 Location: Tampa,Fl Posts: 4,000	If I am not LE why advance on a barricaded or covered opponent? Unless the rarest of occasions that you are exposed without hope of getting to cover that is.

July 4, 2011, 04:59 PM	#10
AK103K Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2001 Posts: 10,223	Any trick you can pull out of your bag is a good thing. Having the experience and knowing you can is also a good thing. Never having to use any of it is an even better thing, but you know how that can go. Anything you do and learn in practice, above shooting tight little groups at your leisure at the range, is going to put you in a better place confidence and skill wise. Being able to shoot on the move is one of the better ones.

July 4, 2011, 05:33 PM	#11
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	To me, the priorities in shooting and moving are: 1. Move to the side (train to move to either side) 2. Move to the rear (preferably at an angle) 3. Move forward only if the best cover or best opportunity to end the fight is forward. When I first started, it was fire one shot each time a foot hit the ground. I have reached the point that (on a man sized, or 1/2 man sized target), I run out of ammo after 3-4 steps, even with a high cap. Afetr all, if I have both a target that needs shooting and ammo, the target gets the ammo as fast as possible. __________________ Sleuth

July 4, 2011, 05:41 PM	#12
BlackFeather Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: West Coast Posts: 450	Yes, LEOs and Military should have more use for such training, but if it comes down to searching your house and you need to move forward, practice helps. For all you know it could be a target popping out while you're moving. This is a possibility in my case, especially with my neighbors heroine addicted sons... Sleuth, no offense, but I'd be far more worried about where the bullet was striking than how many got there. What size group are we talking? Handgun or Rifle? __________________ "Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi [Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]

July 4, 2011, 05:59 PM	#14
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	Blackfeather, all hits inside about a 6" circle from 15 yards in, all centered in the upper chest on a life sized target. (Note - I have my own range here on the ranch, so I get to practice al lot!) __________________ Sleuth

July 4, 2011, 06:08 PM	#15
BlackFeather Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: West Coast Posts: 450	Smince, I agree. Placement on an open target doesn't matter as long as it's a hit. But I'd be far more worried about shooting a small opening while moving up to cover. So, no offense taken. Sleuth, lucky you. I get as much practice in as I can when I can. Unfortunately it's been little in the last year. Six inches is a good opening. Have you tried putting something between you and the target to shoot through? Not in the exact middle but inches away from the target. Just something I haven't been able to try, but since you have your own range... lol __________________ "Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi [Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]

July 4, 2011, 07:28 PM	#16
Come and take it. Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 999	Thanks for the advice.

July 4, 2011, 08:21 PM	#17
smince Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Location: Northeast Alabama Posts: 2,580	I've been shooting 'pro-active' (re-Modern Technique) for most of my CCW life, until 2007. Since then, I've been practicing for close-range, in-your-face-type scenarios like the kind that will more likely happen to me in real life. So close I or my attacker won't have time to be behind or try to get behind cover. That's why moving off the "X" is such important skill to have, and being able to shoot and hit while doing it is even more important.

July 4, 2011, 09:43 PM	#18
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	There is more to "shooting while moving" (or advancing) then Self Defense, Military & LE. There are several types of competition action pistol matches out there, Run 'N Gun, ISPA, ICORE, 3 & Multi Gun, etc etc. If one wishes to learn "shooting while moving it doesn't have to be do to being a ninja or commie killer. Anyway, the best guide I've found out there for this type of shooting is the AMU/CMP "Close Quarter Marksmanship" DVD, $6.95 from the CMP E-Store. It covers; Set Up, 7 Principles of High Performance Shooting, Weapons Presentation, Accuracy, Targets, The Reload, The Mental Game, Range Drills, The Ready Up Drill, Recoil Management, Multiple Threat Engagements, Shooting on the Move, Changing Gears Drills, Alternate Position, Weapons Transition & Malfunctions. https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catal...4=&note5=&max= __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

July 4, 2011, 09:54 PM	#19
egor20 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2010 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 1,824	I carry CCW to protect my wife (whom also carries), myself and other family members, There is no way I'm advancing to fire. My primary mission is to protect them, not to get into a firefight. Sorry just my .02 cents __________________ Chief stall mucker and grain chef Country don't mean dumb. Steven King. The Stand

July 5, 2011, 12:43 AM	#20
Come and take it. Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Kentucky Posts: 999	in principle if we expect help to come soon and time is on our side It would seem very logical to hold onto our corner of the house and let the intruder have the kitchen and living room. but if no help is coming than we are fixed and the enemy is mobile.The enemy has time on his side and He can take that time to think of the best way to get into your defences. If you train to be more aggressive in your tactics than you can prevent yourself from becoming fixed, force your enemies mind to guess. At least that is my take on it.