What causes this? 1851 Navy, play in cylinder when quick cocking none when slow cocking

Stopsign32v · August 26, 2017, 09:33 AM

So if you pull back on the hammer fast the cylinder goes too far and the hammer doesn't line up with the nipple. But you can take your hand and move it side to side a good bit (slop) with the hammer still in full cock.

On the other hand you can slowly cock the hammer and the gun seems to be perfect. Lines up 100% true and there is no side to side play with the cylinder.

What is going on?

Hawg · August 26, 2017, 10:03 AM

The bolt is coming up late and momentum carries it past the notch.

Stopsign32v · August 26, 2017, 10:45 AM

Will a new bolt solve this?

Hawg · August 26, 2017, 11:35 AM

Doubtful. The bolt should drop one full bolt width before the notch. You might be able to file a little off the bolt leg that rides the cam but it's not a job for amateurs. If it was mine I'd just cock it a little slower or you could send it to 45dragoon and it will be right when you get it back.

45 Dragoon · August 26, 2017, 02:11 PM

Thanks Hawg!!

Stopsign32v, you might also check to see if the bolt spring (short side of the combination bolt/trigger spring) is cracked or it could be a weak or cracked hand spring. Hawg is right about the timing, when you hear the 2nd click (when cycling the action) look at the notch that is coming up to the top position on the cylinder. If the notch has crossed a line going forward from the left side of the hammer (as if you were sighting it) the bolt drop is late. The bolt should drop when the notch -reaches- that sight line. Lockup is just on the other side of that line. (Drag a finger on the cylinder to get an accurate read).

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Stopsign32v · August 27, 2017, 06:30 PM

Another thing I noticed is, if you cock it slowly the cylinder will lock up. Even with it locking up, the second you let the hammer down on that chamber there is massive back and forth play.

Still think the same diagnosis? How did it happen? I'm thinking about replacing every small part in the gun short of the hammer, frame, and barrel assembly...

noelf2 · August 27, 2017, 06:42 PM

Bolt/trigger spring broke. The spring leg under the bolt weak, cracked, or broke. Not pushing the bolt up properly.

Hellgate · August 27, 2017, 07:05 PM

Is this a brand new or used gun? I've never had a bolt/trigger spring break on any new gun I have owned.

Hawg · August 27, 2017, 07:12 PM

I've never broken a bolt/trigger spring in 48 years of bp shooting and only one hand spring and that was on a new gun with a burr in the hand channel. It is possible tho.

Stopsign32v · August 27, 2017, 07:50 PM

It's a used gun that I bought with this problem. Owner didn't know what the problem was so I got it for like $75.

It's a 1851 Pietta Navy .44 that I plan to put a Kirst 45 Schofield cylinder in.

noelf2 · August 27, 2017, 07:57 PM

Quote:

I've never broken a bolt/trigger spring in 48 years of bp shooting and only one hand spring

I've had two break. One in an Army San Marco 51 Navy, and one in a Pietta Remmy. Never had a hand spring break, but I did have to adjust one once.

Hellgate · August 27, 2017, 11:10 PM

It's easy enough to take the bolt/trigger spring out and give it a little tweak. It'll break right off if it's cracked. BTDT

Stopsign32v · August 28, 2017, 08:23 AM

Couldn't I put in another trigger/bolt spring for another 1860/1873 SA and see if that resolves it? If so, well...

Hawg · August 28, 2017, 08:48 AM

Sure, you can swap springs but if that one isn't broken it's not going to change anything.

Fingers McGee · August 28, 2017, 11:34 AM

Go here:

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles...a_Part_One.pdf and Here:

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles...a_Part_Two.pdf

It sound to me that either your hand is too long, or your bolt is late coming up ;or both.

These instructions will help you diagnose and repair any Colt style open top.

Pettifoggers instructions are worth their weight in gold.

Beagle333 · August 28, 2017, 12:12 PM

Pettifogger articles oughta fix it if you follow all of those directions.
I had a hand spring break on a new Pietta 1860 on the 24th shot. It hasn't broken again since, in over 25 years. I had the bolt side of the trigger/bolt spring break on an ASM Walker with zero shots. We were just sitting around working the action on an unfired safe queen and broke that spring.

Stopsign32v · August 28, 2017, 08:04 PM

Well I installed a trigger and bolt spring for a 1860 Army. It fixed it

The only thing worth mentioning now is maybe 1 out of 7 hammer pulls result in the cylinder going a smudge too far. Almost like the hammer is being allowed to over travel. I will probably have the action tuned after the cylinder conversion is put in.

noelf2 · August 29, 2017, 10:12 AM

Quote:

The only thing worth mentioning now is maybe 1 out of 7 hammer pulls result in the cylinder going a smudge too far.

It's not unusual for the hammer to travel a hair more than required for full lockup after the bolt head drops into the cylinder stop notch, but the bold head should not travel beyond the cylinder stop notch. If it does, you also have the problem of the bolt rising too late to catch the cylinder stop notch. As described earlier. You may need a new bolt.

Quote:

I will probably have the action tuned after the cylinder conversion is put in.

I think you mean "when" the cylinder conversion is put in. If you are going to have it tuned, have it tuned to the conversion.

Hawg · August 29, 2017, 03:27 PM

What he said. Once it's tuned for the conversion cylinder it may not work right with the c&b cylinder and vice versa.

Stopsign32v · August 29, 2017, 03:57 PM

Ok I just ordered a new Pietta trigger/bolt spring and a new Pietta bolt. Hope that solves these issues for now.

Hawg · August 29, 2017, 05:01 PM

You could have made a spring out of a safety pin.

44 Dave · August 30, 2017, 08:33 PM

I have action stops on all of my single actions.

August 26, 2017, 09:33 AM	#1
Stopsign32v Member Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 36	What causes this? 1851 Navy, play in cylinder when quick cocking none when slow cocking So if you pull back on the hammer fast the cylinder goes too far and the hammer doesn't line up with the nipple. But you can take your hand and move it side to side a good bit (slop) with the hammer still in full cock. On the other hand you can slowly cock the hammer and the gun seems to be perfect. Lines up 100% true and there is no side to side play with the cylinder. What is going on?

August 27, 2017, 06:42 PM	#7
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	Bolt/trigger spring broke. The spring leg under the bolt weak, cracked, or broke. Not pushing the bolt up properly. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

August 27, 2017, 07:05 PM	#8
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	Is this a brand new or used gun? I've never had a bolt/trigger spring break on any new gun I have owned. __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

August 27, 2017, 11:10 PM	#12
Hellgate Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2010 Location: Orygun Posts: 869	It's easy enough to take the bolt/trigger spring out and give it a little tweak. It'll break right off if it's cracked. BTDT __________________ With over 15 perCUSSIN' revolvers, I've been called the Imelda Marcos of cap & ball. SASS#3302 (Life), SASS Regulator, NRA (Life), Dirty Gamey Bastards #129 Wolverton Mtn. Peacekeepers (WA), former Orygun Cowboy (Ranger, Posse from Hell)

August 28, 2017, 11:34 AM	#15
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	Go here: http://www.theopenrange.net/articles...a_Part_One.pdf and Here: http://www.theopenrange.net/articles...a_Part_Two.pdf It sound to me that either your hand is too long, or your bolt is late coming up ;or both. These instructions will help you diagnose and repair any Colt style open top. Pettifoggers instructions are worth their weight in gold. __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

August 26, 2017, 10:03 AM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	The bolt is coming up late and momentum carries it past the notch.

August 26, 2017, 10:45 AM	#3
Stopsign32v Member Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 36	Will a new bolt solve this?

August 26, 2017, 11:35 AM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Doubtful. The bolt should drop one full bolt width before the notch. You might be able to file a little off the bolt leg that rides the cam but it's not a job for amateurs. If it was mine I'd just cock it a little slower or you could send it to 45dragoon and it will be right when you get it back.

August 26, 2017, 02:11 PM	#5
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Thanks Hawg!! Stopsign32v, you might also check to see if the bolt spring (short side of the combination bolt/trigger spring) is cracked or it could be a weak or cracked hand spring. Hawg is right about the timing, when you hear the 2nd click (when cycling the action) look at the notch that is coming up to the top position on the cylinder. If the notch has crossed a line going forward from the left side of the hammer (as if you were sighting it) the bolt drop is late. The bolt should drop when the notch -reaches- that sight line. Lockup is just on the other side of that line. (Drag a finger on the cylinder to get an accurate read). Mike www.goonsgunworks.com Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

August 27, 2017, 06:30 PM	#6
Stopsign32v Member Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 36	Another thing I noticed is, if you cock it slowly the cylinder will lock up. Even with it locking up, the second you let the hammer down on that chamber there is massive back and forth play. Still think the same diagnosis? How did it happen? I'm thinking about replacing every small part in the gun short of the hammer, frame, and barrel assembly...

August 27, 2017, 07:12 PM	#9
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I've never broken a bolt/trigger spring in 48 years of bp shooting and only one hand spring and that was on a new gun with a burr in the hand channel. It is possible tho.

August 27, 2017, 07:50 PM	#10
Stopsign32v Member Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 36	It's a used gun that I bought with this problem. Owner didn't know what the problem was so I got it for like $75. It's a 1851 Pietta Navy .44 that I plan to put a Kirst 45 Schofield cylinder in.

August 28, 2017, 08:23 AM	#13
Stopsign32v Member Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 36	Couldn't I put in another trigger/bolt spring for another 1860/1873 SA and see if that resolves it? If so, well...

August 28, 2017, 08:48 AM	#14
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Sure, you can swap springs but if that one isn't broken it's not going to change anything.

August 28, 2017, 12:12 PM	#16
Beagle333 Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2012 Location: Auburn, AL. Posts: 2,332	Pettifogger articles oughta fix it if you follow all of those directions. I had a hand spring break on a new Pietta 1860 on the 24th shot. It hasn't broken again since, in over 25 years. I had the bolt side of the trigger/bolt spring break on an ASM Walker with zero shots. We were just sitting around working the action on an unfired safe queen and broke that spring. __________________ . . . Have a Colt and a smile.

August 28, 2017, 08:04 PM	#17
Stopsign32v Member Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 36	Well I installed a trigger and bolt spring for a 1860 Army. It fixed it The only thing worth mentioning now is maybe 1 out of 7 hammer pulls result in the cylinder going a smudge too far. Almost like the hammer is being allowed to over travel. I will probably have the action tuned after the cylinder conversion is put in. Last edited by Stopsign32v; August 28, 2017 at 08:57 PM.

August 29, 2017, 03:27 PM	#19
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	What he said. Once it's tuned for the conversion cylinder it may not work right with the c&b cylinder and vice versa.

August 29, 2017, 03:57 PM	#20
Stopsign32v Member Join Date: August 27, 2015 Posts: 36	Ok I just ordered a new Pietta trigger/bolt spring and a new Pietta bolt. Hope that solves these issues for now.

August 29, 2017, 05:01 PM	#21
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	You could have made a spring out of a safety pin.

August 30, 2017, 08:33 PM	#22
44 Dave Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2013 Posts: 584	I have action stops on all of my single actions.