Zulu Enfield, Chamber Adapter for modern ammo?

rkeytect05 · July 26, 2017, 05:09 PM

Hi there folks.

While I am not at all new to reloading or gunsmithing so I already think this isn't a good idea...

But a friend of mine came across a Chamber Adapter for 12ga shotguns that allows you to fire pistol ammo, or .410ga shotgun shells out of your 12ga shotgun.

Now, I know these are not new...but I've been having a logical fight with this individual regarding their Zulu-Enfield 12ga Black Powder shotgun (you may see where this is going.)

He came to me with the idea that if you used a 12ga to .410ga chamber adapter, then he would be able to shoot smokeless .410ga ammo out of the 12ga. black powder shotgun.

The Zulu itself is meant to shoot black powder loaded 12ga cartridges (essentially just a modern cartridge, but instead of smokeless, it uses black powder).

The logic train of thought here is that the .410ga would be low enough pressure, with the alloy steel chamber adapter acting as a reinforcement near the breech, that it could allow him to fire .410ga smokeless modern cartridges in this shotgun. The idea is it would allow him to shoot modern ammo in it that's off the shelf ready as opposed to making black powder rounds. This would also allow him to shoot this particular firearm at "no-black powder" ranges. (I told him, might as well just stick with what works or buy a .410ga instead.)

My immediate reaction is "Smokeless in blackpowder is generally not a good idea." I've seen it done in muzzle loaders, and while it DOES work (albeit I do not think its a good idea, and even in small doses it looks painful shoot). If you get a little too cavalier with the smokeless...it can lead to catastrophic damage to the firearm and well...you....

However, thinking about it, its really a game of pressures...If the alloy steel chamber adapter is in the shotgun, that would take the brunt of the pressure...and since the .410ga is low pressure anyways (like 11.5Kpsi) theoretically it could work, although only effective out to like...10yrds at most since the spread would be huge.

I do know that the Zulu Shotguns, back when they were made, were set at a test standard of 3 drams black powder, and 4oz shot...That's like...what...38Kpsi based upon black powder pressure charts.

I'd error on the side of caution, but this sounds kinda legit....

I do know there are a few brave souls that shoot smokeless modern 12ga through these things (I cringe) but maybe i'm being too cautious here.

Any thoughts from the community?

Course this is all with a grain of salt and no one should be held liable if one goes to test this theory...I'm just curious if the logic train is on track or if its greatly de-railed here.

FrankenMauser · July 26, 2017, 06:56 PM

I am not a professional.

My personal opinion:

- It's probably okay, if the chamber adapter is made from a proper alloy and is designed well.
- But I would do it. Not worth the risk.

ShootistPRS · July 27, 2017, 10:47 AM

I have personally made chamber adapters to shoot 410 from a 12 gauge and they work surprisingly well. The pattern is about the same diameter as the 12 gauge and chokes still work with the 410.
That being said, the pattern is more open with more space between the pellets than with the heavier shot load of the 12 gauge.
They are only really useful if you have a desire to shoot 410 shells instead of 12 gauge but only have a 12 gauge shotgun. Unless you reload it is cheaper to shoot the 12s because, at least in my area, 410s are more expensive than 12 gauge rounds.

FrankenMauser · July 27, 2017, 01:28 PM

That's a good point.
I can load 12 ga BP shells for notably less than factory .410.
I know prices vary substantially across the country, and I don't feel like looking everything up online right now. But, based on local prices and what I know I paid (not long ago) for the 'mail order' materials I have on hand...

A box of .410 costs me $11 for absolute bottom of the barrel stuff. Decent loads are $17 / box. So, $0.44 to $0.68 per shell.
I can load 12 ga BP in paper hulls for less than $0.30 / shell. Even if run like the .410 as 'one-time-use' with once-fired Federal paper, it's only about $0.35 / shell.

And, cleaning after a few BP loads is not a big deal. I'm usually done with a BP weapon, and letting it dry, before I would have scrubbed an equivalent smokeless firearm clean.

But, of course, there's also the issue of chamber dimensions and bore diameter.
A little bit of searching the internet found a fair number of references to these Enfield conversions being "close" to 12 ga (or 10 ga), but modern paper and brass shells are often cited as being a 'snug' fit. Which means, of course, that the chamber adapter may not even work, unless turned to a custom diameter.

In my mind, that's another argument for BP shells.
But I still think it's better off as a decoration and/or conversation piece. They were worn out French muskets before they were converted to breech-loading shotguns, and it's been 140 years since even that happened. Appreciate it. Find something else to shoot.

gwpercle · July 29, 2017, 08:55 AM

I have a 12 to 410 adapter. It is 10 inches long, with a 3 inch 410 chamber and 7 inches of smooth bored 410 barrel. Made of modern stainless steel .
The area around the 410 chamber , which is 12 ga. shell size , is at least 3/16ths inch thick and the barrel part is 1/8th inch thick at its thinnest part .
There is much more steel around the 410 chamber and in the barrel part of the adapter than is in my 410 shotgun , a stout bolt action Revelation from Western Auto .
I would not feel in any danger firing the adapter in a black powder shotgun, the chamber is enclosed with a lot of steel ( 3/16th inch) and by the time the shot has exited the 7 inches of barrel the pressure will have dropped. When the charge leaves the 410 barrel and comes into the 12 gauge barrel section the pressure will not be contained . After the shot charge gets into 12 ga. barrel the wads/cups etc. are no longer containing the charge or pressure. Essentially the 10 inch adapter is the shotgun after that the shot just passes through the barrel. If the 12 /410 adapter doesn't fit...that's another story.
But it won't be dangerous to fire .
Gary

rkeytect05 · July 29, 2017, 03:49 PM

Gwpercle,

What you described is exactly the type of adapter he is looking at.

He went ahead and ordered one for $70.

I consulted another gunsmith here about it, he agreed that the theory is sound so long as the chamber adapter is used. Apparently this isn't a new topic for him as ye's had a couple of people discuss the topic with him.

When my buddy tests it, well rig up a device and see what happens. Ill report back on the results. At minimum it'll be good info either way for future readers to make their own judgement calls.

Jim Watson · July 29, 2017, 04:40 PM

Once upon a time, you had the nice sub-gauge inserts from Purbaugh, et al; and you had the fun gun Savage Four-Tenner. Either, if breeched up, would hold shotshell chamber pressure, no worry about that. I guess the only remaining question is how stout is the tabatiere breechblock and how well fitted is the firing pin.

July 26, 2017, 05:09 PM	#1
rkeytect05 Junior Member Join Date: July 25, 2017 Posts: 2	Zulu Enfield, Chamber Adapter for modern ammo? Hi there folks. While I am not at all new to reloading or gunsmithing so I already think this isn't a good idea... But a friend of mine came across a Chamber Adapter for 12ga shotguns that allows you to fire pistol ammo, or .410ga shotgun shells out of your 12ga shotgun. Now, I know these are not new...but I've been having a logical fight with this individual regarding their Zulu-Enfield 12ga Black Powder shotgun (you may see where this is going.) He came to me with the idea that if you used a 12ga to .410ga chamber adapter, then he would be able to shoot smokeless .410ga ammo out of the 12ga. black powder shotgun. The Zulu itself is meant to shoot black powder loaded 12ga cartridges (essentially just a modern cartridge, but instead of smokeless, it uses black powder). The logic train of thought here is that the .410ga would be low enough pressure, with the alloy steel chamber adapter acting as a reinforcement near the breech, that it could allow him to fire .410ga smokeless modern cartridges in this shotgun. The idea is it would allow him to shoot modern ammo in it that's off the shelf ready as opposed to making black powder rounds. This would also allow him to shoot this particular firearm at "no-black powder" ranges. (I told him, might as well just stick with what works or buy a .410ga instead.) My immediate reaction is "Smokeless in blackpowder is generally not a good idea." I've seen it done in muzzle loaders, and while it DOES work (albeit I do not think its a good idea, and even in small doses it looks painful shoot). If you get a little too cavalier with the smokeless...it can lead to catastrophic damage to the firearm and well...you.... However, thinking about it, its really a game of pressures...If the alloy steel chamber adapter is in the shotgun, that would take the brunt of the pressure...and since the .410ga is low pressure anyways (like 11.5Kpsi) theoretically it could work, although only effective out to like...10yrds at most since the spread would be huge. I do know that the Zulu Shotguns, back when they were made, were set at a test standard of 3 drams black powder, and 4oz shot...That's like...what...38Kpsi based upon black powder pressure charts. I'd error on the side of caution, but this sounds kinda legit.... I do know there are a few brave souls that shoot smokeless modern 12ga through these things (I cringe) but maybe i'm being too cautious here. Any thoughts from the community? Course this is all with a grain of salt and no one should be held liable if one goes to test this theory...I'm just curious if the logic train is on track or if its greatly de-railed here.

July 26, 2017, 06:56 PM	#2
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	I am not a professional. My personal opinion: - It's probably okay, if the chamber adapter is made from a proper alloy and is designed well. - But I would do it. Not worth the risk. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

July 27, 2017, 01:28 PM	#4
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	That's a good point. I can load 12 ga BP shells for notably less than factory .410. I know prices vary substantially across the country, and I don't feel like looking everything up online right now. But, based on local prices and what I know I paid (not long ago) for the 'mail order' materials I have on hand... A box of .410 costs me $11 for absolute bottom of the barrel stuff. Decent loads are $17 / box. So, $0.44 to $0.68 per shell. I can load 12 ga BP in paper hulls for less than $0.30 / shell. Even if run like the .410 as 'one-time-use' with once-fired Federal paper, it's only about $0.35 / shell. And, cleaning after a few BP loads is not a big deal. I'm usually done with a BP weapon, and letting it dry, before I would have scrubbed an equivalent smokeless firearm clean. But, of course, there's also the issue of chamber dimensions and bore diameter. A little bit of searching the internet found a fair number of references to these Enfield conversions being "close" to 12 ga (or 10 ga), but modern paper and brass shells are often cited as being a 'snug' fit. Which means, of course, that the chamber adapter may not even work, unless turned to a custom diameter. In my mind, that's another argument for BP shells. But I still think it's better off as a decoration and/or conversation piece. They were worn out French muskets before they were converted to breech-loading shotguns, and it's been 140 years since even that happened. Appreciate it. Find something else to shoot. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

July 27, 2017, 10:47 AM	#3
ShootistPRS Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2017 Posts: 1,583	I have personally made chamber adapters to shoot 410 from a 12 gauge and they work surprisingly well. The pattern is about the same diameter as the 12 gauge and chokes still work with the 410. That being said, the pattern is more open with more space between the pellets than with the heavier shot load of the 12 gauge. They are only really useful if you have a desire to shoot 410 shells instead of 12 gauge but only have a 12 gauge shotgun. Unless you reload it is cheaper to shoot the 12s because, at least in my area, 410s are more expensive than 12 gauge rounds.

July 29, 2017, 08:55 AM	#5
gwpercle Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2012 Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana Posts: 1,752	I have a 12 to 410 adapter. It is 10 inches long, with a 3 inch 410 chamber and 7 inches of smooth bored 410 barrel. Made of modern stainless steel . The area around the 410 chamber , which is 12 ga. shell size , is at least 3/16ths inch thick and the barrel part is 1/8th inch thick at its thinnest part . There is much more steel around the 410 chamber and in the barrel part of the adapter than is in my 410 shotgun , a stout bolt action Revelation from Western Auto . I would not feel in any danger firing the adapter in a black powder shotgun, the chamber is enclosed with a lot of steel ( 3/16th inch) and by the time the shot has exited the 7 inches of barrel the pressure will have dropped. When the charge leaves the 410 barrel and comes into the 12 gauge barrel section the pressure will not be contained . After the shot charge gets into 12 ga. barrel the wads/cups etc. are no longer containing the charge or pressure. Essentially the 10 inch adapter is the shotgun after that the shot just passes through the barrel. If the 12 /410 adapter doesn't fit...that's another story. But it won't be dangerous to fire . Gary

July 29, 2017, 03:49 PM	#6
rkeytect05 Junior Member Join Date: July 25, 2017 Posts: 2	Gwpercle, What you described is exactly the type of adapter he is looking at. He went ahead and ordered one for $70. I consulted another gunsmith here about it, he agreed that the theory is sound so long as the chamber adapter is used. Apparently this isn't a new topic for him as ye's had a couple of people discuss the topic with him. When my buddy tests it, well rig up a device and see what happens. Ill report back on the results. At minimum it'll be good info either way for future readers to make their own judgement calls.

July 29, 2017, 04:40 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Once upon a time, you had the nice sub-gauge inserts from Purbaugh, et al; and you had the fun gun Savage Four-Tenner. Either, if breeched up, would hold shotshell chamber pressure, no worry about that. I guess the only remaining question is how stout is the tabatiere breechblock and how well fitted is the firing pin.