100 Yards: What's your most accurate rifle, the ammo and group size?

[dgludwig]

Three shots per coin? I'm finally impressed.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by dgludwig

Three shots per coin? I'm finally impressed.

IIRC, I pasted 7 coins (on a cardboard backer at 100 yards), gave myself 2 shots per coin, but ended up only needing 9 shots:

- 3 of those coins were hit with a single shot, and a 4th took a 2nd shot.

- 2 coins (not shown) were "winged" and not usable as fobs.

- I'd be remiss if I didn't admit I missed the first coin with 2 shots.

The CTR is a good shooter. I know this is a "what's your best 100 yard group?" thread, but here's it's best 200 yard group. Certainly not normal, but IIRC, it's average is 0.55" (5-shot group) at 100.

[agtman]

Quote: Ques.: Are group size and accuracy the same thing? I don't think so.

Answer: Group size is certainly evidence of accuracy; the more shots in the group, the more valid the evidence for same.

Well, after 4 pages, ... at least one person seems to get it.

Let's repeat: 3-shots doesn't establish a "group" for accuracy purposes; it indicates (barely) that there's a POA somewhere on paper.

5-shots is the bare minimum for establishing or vetting the accuracy of a certain load in a certain rifle, as long as the shooter is removed from the equation as much as possible. That's why you shoot 5-shot groups from a rested/supported position - typically, off a bench.

And yes, 10-shot groups are much more useful for assessing the accuracy of a particular load (or rifle) than 5-shot groups.

Achieving consistent accuracy in centerfire rifle shooting is work, guys. I mean, other than just doing some casual Sunday afternoon plinking, which we all do from time to time.

But if you're lazy, stick with your little 3-shot "group." If it's reasonably tight, well, you can do the fat man's happy dance.

[dgludwig]

: 3-shots doesn't establish a "group" for accuracy purposes; it indicates (barely) that there's a POA somewhere on paper.

Three-shot groups will go a long way in determining the accuracy potential of a rifle if you shoot enough of them. But there's no doubt that the more shots placed in a given group, the more validity there is for defining the accuracy of any rifle.

[hdwhit]

What's your most accurate rifle, the ammo and group size?

At 100 yards, it would have to be my Armi Jager AP-74, it is a .22 LR rifle made to look like an AR-15.

I have no idea what the group sizes are. The standard for accuracy I use is whether or not I can get at least 9 out of 10 rounds into the circular divot on the side of a gallon milk jug at 100 yards firing offhand. The Jager pretty much always get 10 out of 10.

I have a "standardized" .223 load for my centerfire rifles that is a Hornady 60 grain soft (or hollow) point spitzer over 20.3 grains * of IMR-4198. It will always deliver at least 9 out of 10 into the milk jug divot from anything I shoot them from. I suppose if I shot off a bench, I could probably tighten the groups up.

* This load is less than maximum in the Hornady Handbook #4 which was current when I developed this round. It should be noted that Hornady #8 shows this as an "above maximum" load. I am not going to disassemble the remaining 35 year old rounds that have consistently performed well, but in future, I will load consistent with the later published manuals.

[Bluecthomas]

If I'm trying to hit a penny at 100 yards, it's more about the scope than the gun. Can't hit what you can't see...

[RaySendero]

agtman wrote:

Let's repeat: 3-shots doesn't establish a "group" for accuracy purposes; it indicates (barely) that there's a POA somewhere on paper.

You know, I've read a lot of people repeat/echo this disclaimer regarding 3-shot groups;
But I've never seen the statistics to back-up this as a fact.

Can you reference the math to back-up this claim? Or is this just your opinion?
I'd be interested.

[darkgael]

Better sights and better triggers might help a shooter to shoot more accurately but they have nothing to do with how accurate the firearm is.

I won't get into that whole "what constitutes a group" swamp. I was, however, rereading this thread and then quoted statement above did not sit well. Shooting more accurately has nothing to do with the accuracy of the firearm?? Do I see a contradiction there?

Pete

[Houndog]

Towards Agtman's point - shot my Sig SSG3000 in a fun club match - 20 rounds at 100 yards, any gun, any optic. The gun shot a 1.15 inch 20 shot group. Obviously shooting 5 round groups it is pretty consistently around 1/2 MOA.

[RaySendero]

agtman wrote:

Let's repeat: 3-shots doesn't establish a "group" for accuracy purposes; it indicates (barely) that there's a POA somewhere on paper.

RaySendero asked:
You know, I've read a lot of people repeat/echo this disclaimer regarding 3-shot groups;
But I've never seen the statistics to back-up this as a fact.

Can you reference the math to back-up this claim? Or is this just your opinion?
I'd be interested?

OK, Since no answer by now, I'll assume its just your opinion.

I'll make a stab at the math:

I still have that target with a 3-shot group covered by the dime.
I need the measurements from the center of each shot to the center of the 3-shot group.
So 1st a little geometry...If you draw a line from shot to shot then perpendicular bisect each line
these 3 lines will come close to intersecting at the center of the group.

Using a caliper the 3 shots are 0.110", 0.097", 0.116" from that center
and the 3 average 0.1077" from the center.
These numbers range from shot to shot - 0.006, 0.013, 0.019
and average 0.0127".
Ok so 0.1077 + 2.66 x 0.0127 = 0.1415"

Now imagine a normal curve in 3D like a donut around the center of that 3-shot group!
Each subsegent shot the 4th, 5th, 6th, etc. would have a probability of 99.85%
to be within 0.1415" of the center of that 3-shot group.

"IF" there was no change in the rifle or the ammo and
"IF" there was no error by the shooter.
Chances are the 4th shot would also be touching one or more of the other 3 shots in that group.



PS: This seems to support the saying;
3-shot groups test the rifle and ammo - 5-shot groups test the shooter.

[TXAZ]

As the OP, I'm grateful for all the replies, be the 3 / 5 or double digit sized groups. I'm looking for a good rifle that shoots well but costs *significantly* less than my Barrett.

The question is intentionally open-ended, and I'm very happy with the responses.
A 3 shot group goes a long way to answering the question to narrow the field.

So if you shoot a 3 or 5 or 100 shot 1/2" group at 100 yards, I'm interested in hearing about.

So please, if you're happy with your rifle and can hide 3 or 300 shots behind a quarter or a dime like RaySendero , sing out!
Thanks!

[RaySendero]

TXAZ,

Tell us what you want to do with "this rifle"
and what you will expect for accuracy.

There are many here on this site that are good at
recommending rifles for specific hunting or target situations.

[TXAZ]

Ray asked:

TXAZ,

Tell us what you want to do with "this rifle"
and what you will expect for accuracy.

Thanks Ray. I'd like a rifle that I can shoot 100 and 200 yards and get better at small groups (like your dime group.) I have a Barrett .50 I love, but 1 MOA in a bench is pushing it. With a more precise rifle that's capable of shooting tighter groups, I expect I can improve my overall accuracy and precision.
I'm also not going to reload, so would like a rifle that is happy with factory match ammo.
Budget ~$3K with optics.

Does that help?

[RaySendero]

Gosh,

Why didn't you say so to start with?

Take a good look at the Rem Model 700P:

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/700p.htm

Get pricing from gunbroker or gunsamerica.

[NHSHOOTER]

TXAZ There are many rifle scope combo's you can get for under a grand that will do what you want...I have a few such combo's myself..

[Art Eatman]

Going back to 1950, a five-shot group from a benchrest was the determinant of the quality of a rifle. Assuming a competent shooter, of course.

I always did five-shot groups a time or two to check out a new-to-me rifle.

I found the three-shot group to be very useful in load testing and in sight-in, once the rifle was a known quantity. If a rifle was essentially sub-MOA and a three-shot group was tighter than the usual average, why bother with more shots? What additional and helpful information could I get?

All I know is that my system worked for me for some sixty years. Tight groups and lots of deer meat.

[RaySendero]

The Remington 700P is a heavy target type rifle with a 26" bull barrel.

Remington also makes the 700P in a LTR, Light Tactical Rifle.
It has a shorter 20" bull barrel that is fluted.

They both have the M700 action - Even the short action is a M700.
Either can be had at a price ranging from $800 to $1100.

My son has the LTR.
Here's a look at one of his sight-in targets when he was preparing for a silhouette match:

[Ruga Booga]

Rem. 700 varmint w/26 in. heavy barrel sitting in an HS Precision stock with a Vortex crossfire ll 4-12. I only shoot Fed. gold medal match 168 gn. I can consistently shoot dime and nickel groups at 100 yds. off of sandbags. Maybe its not a good indication of real world skill but it is extremely satisfying.

[hdwhit]

Post largely duplicating a prior entry deleted.

[rjinga]

Originally Posted by RaySendero

You know, I've read a lot of people repeat/echo this disclaimer regarding 3-shot groups;
But I've never seen the statistics to back-up this as a fact.

Can you reference the math to back-up this claim? Or is this just your opinion?
I'd be interested.

I thought this was an interesting article on using at least a 10-shot group:
http://www.bealeinnovations.com/stats-3shotgroup.pdf

[rjinga]

I shot this using a PTR 91, GI model. I was shooting off of a table, using a rest and the iron sights. I don't remember what brand of ammunition I was using; probably surplus.

Oh, those three shots were part of 10 that I fired. Does that still count?

[rjinga]

I'm still reviewing my photos, but I don't usually shoot 3-shot groups. Here's one of my smallest 10-shot groups at 100 yds. PTR 91, GI model; iron sights, off of a table with a rest:



5-shot group with the same rifle and set-up:



And, if I'm allowed to ignore the obligatory flyer when shooting Wolf steel-cased ammo:

[Don Fischer]

Originally Posted by agtman

Well, after 4 pages, ... at least one person seems to get it.

Let's repeat: 3-shots doesn't establish a "group" for accuracy purposes; it indicates (barely) that there's a POA somewhere on paper.

5-shots is the bare minimum for establishing or vetting the accuracy of a certain load in a certain rifle, as long as the shooter is removed from the equation as much as possible. That's why you shoot 5-shot groups from a rested/supported position - typically, off a bench.

And yes, 10-shot groups are much more useful for assessing the accuracy of a particular load (or rifle) than 5-shot groups.

Achieving consistent accuracy in centerfire rifle shooting is work, guys. I mean, other than just doing some casual Sunday afternoon plinking, which we all do from time to time.

But if you're lazy, stick with your little 3-shot "group." If it's reasonably tight, well, you can do the fat man's happy dance.

3 shots don't establish a group? I'm a hunter and never in my life have I fired more that two shots at game. But I have fired a bunch of 5 shot groups over the years. Best group was .111 at 100yds with Rem 700 ADL in 25-06 shooting 100gr MK's. Put it away and haven fired my 25-06 since! I have shot group's down around .250 with a couple other rifles and a 222 Rem years ago made little tiny group's with a 50 gr SMK. Don't recall how small any more, long long time ago!

[Kachok]

Tikka T3 Stainless 6.5x55 129gr SST handload 45.5gr RL19 3.098" Neck sized PPU brass Remington Primer. That hole measured .346" outside diameter so about a 1/12th MOA group. That gun is stupid accurate with everything I put through it.
My bad, it won't let me post the pic, seems I have posted it once before on another thread.

[EIB0879]

I shoot three round groups. When my three shot groups are all under an inch I think I have a pretty good idea of the accuracy of a rifle. When I can change ammo and can stay under an inch at 100 yards, I have little doubt of what the rifle will do for my purpose (hunting).

Most of my rifles will consistently shoot three round groups under an inch at 100 yards if I do my part. I have one rifle that will consistently shoot smaller groups however.

That rifle is a 300 Weatherby Sako L691. The best group I ever shot with it was approx .25. I thought the third shot had gone off paper until I got the target down and looked at it carefully. Just one ragged hole.

.The problem with the rifle is that it is heavy to carry and kicks like a mule, two things that I don't tolerate well as I get older. I'm good for six or seven shots at the range before I put it back in the case.