Is the Mosin (91/30) a good survival rifle???

[Andrewsky]

They were probably the worst bolt action service rifle of both WW1 and WW2. They lack the sophistication of the best ones, the Lee Enfield and the Mauser 98. The updates in 1930, 1938, and 1944 were insignificant spins on a design that was mediocre in 1891.

Setting up a Mosin (and training yourself) to actually be useful is playing the game of gun ownership on hard mode.

You'll run into all kinds of obstacles. Here are some things I've found.

-Some stripper clips work well (from Gun Parts Corp).

-One stripper clip loading method works (grab the top round and use it to push the others down).

-The action screws always come loose under recoil.

-The rear sight can shift under recoil (e.g. from 300m to 400m after one shot).

-The bolts will stick, but not with brass ammo. Using brass ammo will do more than cleaning your chamber (by the way, do not put a fine polish on the chamber, as it is dangerous).

-The sights might not line up (e.g. 100m setting might match POI/POA at 100, but you might need 300m setting to match at 200m distance).

-The safety just requires a little technique. You need to put the butt of the rifle in the crook of your elbow and pull with your thumb and forefinger. But the safety can be dangerous if you let it slip.

-The handguards can slip if the retaining clips aren't doing a good job of holding them.

-They are so loud you will need to go with max hearing protection at all times. The flash and bang from the carbines is tremendous.

-You need a slip-on recoil pad with them.

-Ammo is not cheap anymore by any means.

-Triggers range from being so stiff it hurts your finger after a while to pull it to feels like a double action revolver trigger pull to modern hunting rifle.

-Even if the bolt isn't sticking it's hard to cycle the rifle quickly because it's a straight bolt handle, the bolt handle is short, and it cocks on opening. I always remove it from the shoulder to cycle it.

Some good points:

-Accuracy is no concern at all. I recently shot a ten shot group at 100 yards within 2.5" with an M38.

-Headspace is rarely a concern, but it headspaces on the rim and is super easy to check.

-Thin front sight posts are available from an ebay seller. They are nearly impossible to install but work well and you can file them down.

-Slings are readily available and work well.

-They draw enormous attention at the range.


Is it a good survival rifle? If you actually shoot your guns, sight in your guns, buy accoutrements and accessories for your guns, and test your guns, then sure you can kind of make it work. However, it will be totally outclassed by a Lee Enfield, Garand, or Mauser.

If you're the kind of person that likes to buy guns and then set them aside without setting them and yourself up properly, then what you're looking for is an AR-15.

[agtman]

If survival against nature is your main concern and you could only have one rifle than surely a combination rifle like a baikal o/u 12/308 is the best bet.

Is it a good survival rifle? If you actually shoot your guns, sight in your guns, buy accoutrements and accessories for your guns, and test your guns, then sure you can kind of make it work. However, it will be totally outclassed by a Lee Enfield, Garand, or Mauser.

Best "survival" rifle where hostile animals or predatory humans might be a concern, but one that is also handy and portable, as well as chambered in a commonly-available caliber, ... would be something like a 16" Mini-G or 18" Tanker Garand. These shorty M1s can be had in .30-06 or 7.62/.308.

The one below is an '06. Shoots like a laser too.

Insert an 8-rd en bloc clip, and with two more loaded in the stock pak, you've got 24-rds "on the gun," ready to go. Good for bears or bad guys.

American-made, battle-vetted under the harshest conditions most "outdoor" dudes here will never face. Ever heard of the Frozen Chosin? Puts the Commie Mosin to shame, for serious.

16" Mini-G.

[taylorce1]

Best survival tool will be your brain and a good knife or two. Learning to snare small game and fishing, will feed you better than any rifle. You simply can't carry enough ammunition for long term survival, if you're going to consider a rifle as a main survival tool. Plus if you're mobile there are a lot lighter rifles and ammunition to carry than a Mosin.

[44 AMP]

Ever heard of the Frozen Chosin?

Yeah, I've heard of it. And I'd like to point out that while the M1 Garand gave respectable service under those harsh conditions, the other guys weapons, (including the Moisin Nagant) didn't stop working, either.

The Garand is superior to the MN in many ways, but ability to function in harsh conditions isn't one of the decisive ones.

[agtman]

Ever heard of the Frozen Chosin?

Yeah, I've heard of it.

That's good, 'cause way too many of the younger generation of AR-shooting dudenals sure haven't.

And I'd like to point out that while the M1 Garand gave respectable service under those harsh conditions, the other guys weapons, (including the Moisin Nagant) didn't stop working, either.

Well, the Chosin and other venues saw GIs with M1s facing down Commie "human wave" attacks armed with automatic weapons like the AK.

By the way, on the Mosin, try cycling a 5th round into battery with a frozen hand, while I've still got three rounds of '06 ball to squeeze off in my M1 clip. It ain't rocket science. 8 quick semi-auto rounds will beat 5 slow bolt rounds all day, every day.

The Garand is superior to the MN in many ways, but ability to function in harsh conditions isn't one of the decisive ones.

If the alternative is 5-shot Commie bolt trash, it sure is.

In fact, I'd say the M1 was superior to the MN in all the important ways - i.e., ways that actually mattered in combat in that era, like the extra ammo capacity, rugged reliability, accuracy at distance, and the best iron-sights of any battle rifle ever fielded.

[peggysue]

Opps

[Andrewsky]

In fact, I'd say the M1 was superior to the MN in all the important ways - i.e., ways that actually mattered in combat in that era, like the extra ammo capacity, rugged reliability, accuracy at distance, and the best iron-sights of any battle rifle ever fielded.

My data and experience indicates that the inherent accuracy and durability of Mosins is on par with Garands. Practical accuracy is better with the Garand of course.

The Garand sights are good, but the protective ears are a little short and it gets wobbly when adjusted to the really high elevations.

[MosinNOUGAT]

thanks everyone, it was very helpful!

[SHR970]

One thing I din't see mentioned..maybe I just missed it.

A Moisin is built like a truck axel....and during the war probably by the same people who made truck axels. Quality can vary from Pretty good (pre war, pre revolution examples) to horrible (war time rush).

Now in quality, I am not talking about finish..that is an easy sacrifice that doesn't impact performance. I am refering to tolerances and alignment. Bore sizing is all over the map as well as bore alignment, sight alignment, metallurgy, etc.

Also, due to corrosive ammo coupled with peasant maintenance and care, some have bores that are worn out, heavily pitted, and resemble sewer pipes. There is a reason some have counter bored muzzles.

With a Moisin you are shooting craps. It helps to be able to look the gun over real good and know what you are looking for and at.

[Pathfinder45]

It could work, but I do think that a cheap post-64 30-30 Winchester would be better anywhere in the USA.

[44 AMP]

In fact, I'd say the M1 was superior to the MN in all the important ways

And I would heartily agree with that. I'm just saying that the ability to operate in extreme cold isn't one of them. Both rifles, properly cared for, will work in extreme cold, and improperly cared for, they won't.

In other words, properly cared for, the Moisin Nagant is equally difficult to operate in all weather.

I don't have arctic experience with the M1 Garand, but I do have some with the M14 and the M16, , and one thing I came to appreciate that AR shooters never will grasp is the benefits of a charging handle that works BOTH WAYS.

[Badgerstate]

Id look for something that uses more readily available ammo. Youve got to figure, if its a SHTF moment, youre going to have to scrounge for whatever ammo you can find, so you want something common.

[KAOS THE CAT]

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/275282595943463724/


http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/roza-shanina-1945/


KAOS THE CAT

[Model12Win]

mooisoitnone nagaats are great tactical survival operator rifles:



They are accurate, powderful, and strong to defeat capitalist.

[ShootistPRS]

The Mosin is not the most elegant of rifles and certainly not the most beautiful gun on the rack but it is a well made bolt action rifle that has been tested under the harshest of conditions. It is a far better "survival" rifle than the more popular AR 15 series guns. It is versatile in that you can load it with very light bullets for small game and camp meat or up to the level required for buffalo and moose. It has proven itself as a weapon capable of long range use against an attacking enemy and even as a sniper rifle.

[44 AMP]

look for something that uses more readily available ammo. Youve got to figure, if its a SHTF moment, youre going to have to scrounge for whatever ammo you can find, so you want something common.

Someone, or several someone nearly always give this kind of advice, and everyone nods, and thinks, yep, that's a good idea... but is it, really?

Where you gonna do this "scrounging?" Think that there's going to be any popular calibers left? Think there's going to be ANYTHING left? Good Luck. Unless you're one of the first "scroungers" (and btw, the first "scroungers" are known as "looters" and get shot or shot at) I'd imagine any unguarded ammo supply will get robbed pretty quick.

You're not going to be "the last man on earth" and even if you are, we don't do those discussions at TFL.

The ONLY thing you can count on when civil order breaks down is what you ALREADY HAVE. The rest is fantasy.

I think we've gone far enough down that particular rabbit hole in this thread, fun though it is...

[agtman]

The ONLY thing you can count on when civil order breaks down is what you ALREADY HAVE. The rest is fantasy.

Actually, I agree with that.

But in the few hours you may have to gather up some ammo before the howling mob starts down your street, there's no downside - if your home stash happens to be running a little short - to sourcing a commonly-available caliber where you can ...

In this country, for centerfire rifles, that's going to be .223, .308, 30-06 - period.

Trying to source MN ammo in an emergency is the real fantasy. Skip the Mosin junk. Get an M1.

You can thank me after you've survived the annual mid-August zombie outbreak.

John C. runs through home-defense drills with his personal M1.

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me that a survival rifle(s) should be chambered in a commonly available cartridge(s). As in .22 rimfire, 5.56 and .308. Far more easily acquired in "hard times".

[kraigwy]

AGTMAN has the right idea.

As much as I love the M1 I think the M1903A3 is better. Its a tad bit more accurate, and more handloading friendly, mainly its a better candidate for cast bullets. The Springfield also isn't as picky about the ammo (bullet weight and powder choice) as the Garand. Plus you don't have to chase your brass all over several area codes.

I shoot both in the CMP Vintage Rifle matches, I can shoot the 'A3 just about as fast as I can the Garand. You learn to work the bolt, you can make a good smooth bolt gun sound as fast as a gas gun.

That's not saying I'm going to give up my Garand's though.

I use to run sniper schools for the AK NG using the M1C/Ds. The native guardsmen found out that their M1s and stolen guard ammo was pretty handy for hunting Walrus. Somewhere I have a picture of a native shooting caribou with his issue Garand Sniper Rifle.

So many options, so many guns, not enough time to take them each out to play.

Every time I take one of my guns out, I think this is the only gun I really need. Then remind my self, Slaves get what they NEED, freemen get what they WANT.

[44 AMP]

But in the few hours you may have to gather up some ammo before the howling mob starts down your street,...

Actually, you may have less time than that. In fact, you may not be able to get more ammo even if the howling mob never gets onto you block...

One of the FIRST things done during an "emergency" is the suspension of legal sales of alchohol and Firearms /ammo. Once this happens, retailers cannot legally sell you any ammo, even if they want to, and the disaster is still miles away.

Buddy Buck at Guns R US might "back door" you a couple boxed (or a case???), but if you're caught after the suspension order has been given, then BOTH of you are breaking the law (as it exists at the time), and while a lot of folks will look the other way, IF you run afoul of the right kind of "protector of the people", the BEST you can hope for is to be locked up, until the regular court system is re-established, and gets around to hearing your case. Which will be an unguessable number of days/weeks/possibly months AFTER law and order are restored.

There is an up side to "riding out" a disaster in the custody of the govt, they will, at least, do their best to keep you somewhat fed. Looks bad on their records when prisoners awaiting trial starve to death...

In this country, for centerfire rifles, that's going to be .223, .308, 30-06 - period.

Here, I think you are inserting the period just a bit early. I think .30-30 belongs on that list.

If you're not in the major urban gun control areas lots of little stores hardware stores, and in some places even gas stations & grocery stores have a few boxes of ammo on their shelves. .22 (in the days when you could get them) some mixture of shotgun shells, and a box or 3 of rifle ammo. Often there's some .223 or .308, '06, maybe, but there's almost always a box of .30-30. It may be 25 years old, but its there...

There's still a lot of folks out there that don't have the AR bug, or the milsurp bug, or even any kind of gun bug at all, but do hunt, and have a deer rifle, and a shotgun. The rifle they pick up when disaster strikes is going to be the one that they have, and that's a Win/Marlin .30-30 levergun in millions of homes, still today.

[the possum]

Has everyone forgotten the panic after Sandy Hook? That's the closest thing to a full fledged SHTF panic run on guns and ammo I've seen in my lifetime. I well recall how the most popular rounds were the first things to disappear. Go to any store that sold ammo, and the shelves were almost completely bare, except for 12 ga, .270 Win, and .17 HMR (at least in this area). And the most popular round of all time, .22lr, has not fully recovered after over 5 years. I'm finally seeing more of it, but it sure doesn't cost 3 or 4 cents a round anymore.

The lesson I took home from this, is that all those guy telling us to buy something in a very common caliber, "because it will be the only thing you can find after SHTF", are wrong. No, when there is a mass panic that makes people try to stock up on guns/ammo, the most common calibers will be the first thing to disappear.

If things deteriorate to the point you can "scrounge" door to door in abandoned houses, then if there's ammo in the house, the gun that it fits is probably laying around too.

[Blindstitch]

Looks like this thread is starting to fall deep down the rabbit hole.

The only ammo easily carried is 22lr even in 500 round packs.
Lets assume you show up at a store and there's a sign that says everythings free and there's boxes of your favorite 20 round packs (not 223/556, 7.62x39). Lets say Winchester/Remington/Federal. You're looking at almost a full milk crate or backpack for 500 rounds unless you dump it into lose rounds.

Even 12 gauge would be a milk crate and weigh over 30 pounds.

Survival would probably come down to carrying 150 or less rounds if nomadic. Who knows if you're walled up in a house in the country.

And this is off the thought of hunting for food, possibly a bit for defense but no zombies or any other thought involving shooting people live or undead.

A survival guide and basic trapping skills would go far.

[agtman]

* * * Survival would probably come down to carrying 150 or less rounds if nomadic. Who knows if you're walled up in a house in the country.
And this is off the thought of hunting for food, possibly a bit for defense but no zombies or any other thought involving shooting people live or undead.
A survival guide and basic trapping skills would go far.

Dudenal, you're being way too rational for this thread.

You're going to spoil it for all the Mosin fanboys who image themselves as becoming some sort of hero-sniper in their pet SHTF scenario - ala Enemy at the Gates. ... And where's the fun in that?

Seriously, you Mosin dudenals. Get rid of that junk. Sell the ammo. Invest in something realistic for a realistic scenario ...

You can thank Clint later.



IBTL.

[ThomasT]

So you should stop being a Mosin fanboy and start being a Garand fanboy?

[agtman]

So you should stop being a Mosin fanboy and start being a Garand fanboy?

Well, "fanboy" really doesn't apply since the choice is so clear.

Aside from collectibility, which I'll acknowledge is a fine reason to get one, the MN as a fighting weapon is junk compared to the M1 Garand - in any configuration: Mini-G, Tanker, or full-size.

This one shoots as good as it looks.

CMP 7.62/.308 HRA Special M1.